The Silmarillion in the Vernacular

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I think I might have even read through the entire index of names at one point, just because.

Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.

Is this the moment when I'm allowed to say that I have read the LotR names index before I read the actual story? (And the point was exactly to marvel at the amount of amazing names and locations that all sounded so exciting even though I had no idea what they were, with an occasional translation of the name on the side.)

In the same vein, looking at maps was a necessary part of the reading (call it multimedial experience), and I may not have read the Elvish languages "dictionary" the most often, but before the first time I finished the Sil - and possibly even LotR - I had read it several times and knew most of the basic words. I was about eight-ish around that time.

Depending how much "linguistic" your kids are, Hui, you might find them devouring the dictionary if you actually let them loose on it, and it might add an extra dimension to the whole "people whose names start with F-" issue. I don't know how much such an experience can be generalised, but it seems to me that there is a certain fascination with strange names among many children, which manifests equally in areas like Tolkien or for example kids learning names of dinosaurs very easily, and being actually super interested in learning them. It may be that it is not as common as I perceive it to be, or that your kids may not be interested in that, but an eight-year-old me would have been perfectly happy to be entertained for several hours with a map and a dictionary even without the story.

In any case, it is a splendid testimony and I can only say that this sounds like parenting done right. And I join those who marvel at you being able to remember all the facts correctly, or more like, feeling confident enough to tell that. I used to, but I would be very hesitant and afraid that I would mix up some of the F- people. But I am also much more confident in The Hobbit and LotR - or, say, the Ainulindalë, but not the "middle part" of Sil. Perhaps it is because I was never so much into the cloak-and-dagger family-dramas which form the bulk of it. I liked the "myths" about how the first Elves or first Men came here or there or about the Trees or Sun and Moon, but found the repeated unsuccesful ventures against Morgoth and recurring personal tragedies of individuals pretty dull and waited for something interesting to happen. But if you used Fëanor to illustrate the destructive potential of anger, then, well... that's some use of the story, hats off.

But I wanted to say: I commend you for remembering all this, but I am absolutely not surprised at your kids keeping track of it, and I would absolutely not fear them not being able to remember the names. Because that's what kids do. I would rather fear, if this keeps up, that in a couple of years, you might need to revise who was who or what was the difference between Brithombar and Eglarest, because they will know, and you might not.

[Huinesoron]

We made it through Turin!

Stars and water he's hard work. But I've finally managed to bump off not just Turin, but his entire family and most of his friends and enemies as well. Thingol is still alive, but... I think he's it? Well, Morgoth, I guess.

Now to decide whether to wrap up the Saga of Turin Kills Everyone by killing Thingol too (it is too his fault), or give myself a break and go visit Gondolin for a bit.

...

Stars... after maybe one session of Gondolin, I don't get another break from deaths until Earendil reaches Valinor, do I?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Stars... after maybe one session of Gondolin, I don't get another break from deaths until Earendil reaches Valinor, do I?

Well...

Beren and Luthien live happily ever after - and die.
Dior gets to be king - and promptly dies.
Everyone in Doriath except for Elwing dies.
Then, everyone in the Grey Havens except for Elwing dies. Oh, and I guess Elrond and Elros. They don't die.

I guess the only people to Not Die before Earendil reaches Valinor are Tuor and Idril, who sail into the sunset and live forever. Presumably.

(And if someone can explain why that cheek Tuor gets to be counted among the Elves but the Gift of Men is irrevocable for Beren and everyone else in the legendarium, that would be nice to know. Also, if Earendil is the first "Middle-earthian" to reach Valinor since the Exile of the Noldor, where did Tuor and Idril go? I sometimes imagine them locked in some timeless bubble on one of the Enchanted Islands amid the weird reality-bending border that the Valar put up, enjoying each other's company for eternity outside the flow of normal time, thus conveniently avoiding both the where and the how questions.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And if someone can explain why that cheek Tuor gets to be counted among the Elves but the Gift of Men is irrevocable for Beren and everyone else in the legendarium, that would be nice to know.

Well, Tuor was raised by elves. So with Manwe needing to balance the books after the whole 'hey dad, I'm sending you a half-elf, half-ainu' debacle, he was the best excuse around.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Also, if Earendil is the first "Middle-earthian" to reach Valinor since the Exile of the Noldor, where did Tuor and Idril go? I sometimes imagine them locked in some timeless bubble on one of the Enchanted Islands amid the weird reality-bending border that the Valar put up, enjoying each other's company for eternity outside the flow of normal time, thus conveniently avoiding both the where and the how questions.

Oh! I actually know this one and you're right. Sorta.

The original, BoLT version of the tale of Tuor and Idril ends differently: Tuor ages, until eventually the sea-longing overcomes him and he sails off alone to the West. Idril arrives too late to stop him. Earendil's voyages are actually an attempt to find Tuor - until he comes back one time and finds Idril has vanished too.

Then, on his final trip, he reaches the Twilight Isles and wakes the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl - who, in a rejected statement, was said to be Idril. So indeed, 'hanging around in suspended animation in the Enchanted Isles' was a possible fate for (at least one of) Tuor & Idril.

A more likely canonical version comes from the original Quenta which said:

But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressea; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

So there you have it: they mucked about in a boat for 20 years until Earendil got his act together.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the later texts take the "it is said" form; and Tolkien does not always mean that those "it is saids" are really true- sometimes they represent the wishful thinking of later generations. For example, "it is said" among the Longbeard Dwarves that Durin received his Ring, not from Sauron, but from Celebrimbor himself. That one is pretty obviously not true; post-facto Durinite propaganda.

Keep in mind that only Iluvatar, not Manwe or any of the Valar, can take away the Gift of Men; and that the rule was waived for Elwing and Earendil because they were half-castes, and because they were the agents of Doom. While Tuor was certainly important, he wasn't more important than Beren! Also- if Tuor was alive and kicking around Valinor or Eressea, don't you think some of early Numenor's frequent Elvish visitors might have said, "Yo, Tar-Minyatur, your grandpa sends his best."

In my head-canon, at least, T&I were lost at sea, but later Numenorean tradition wanted a "happy ending."