Fourth, Fifth, Sixth (and Seventh?) Ages

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I'd only change the 'Awakening of Men' part in your table - since I think that Tolkien ultimately decided against such an enormous 'First Age', given that in the same NoME text in which this figure appears, the problem of the founding of Angband is still present, while in the other texts from the same period (such as the 'VY 850' Awakening of the Elves), Angband is already established as an ancient western fortress of Morgoth.

You're right, though I'm not sure Angband is relevant.

First off, NoME 1.VI A was revised into 1.VI B. Tolkien repeats the statement of how many years Men had existed before they entered Beleriand, but amends it from 64,534 years to 57,190 years. He still keeps the "not scientifically long enough" statement, too! So the Awakening of Men date should certainly be revised to match that.

But then he did reconsider. 1.XIII.2, for example, places the death of the Trees 96 VY after the Awakening of the Elves, explicitly 13,824 years. Men would obviously have to be younger than that!

But I think it's valid to record what he was thinking at the time. Ultimately there is no One True Answer to this question, so showing all the options is my preferred aproach.

~

Though of course, we can put them in chronological order.

• The Lost Road - pre 1937. Submitted to Allen and Unwin that year.
• Astronomy - 1937-1949. During writing of LotR.
• PoME TV - 1949-50. Dated by CT.
• Letter 211 - October 1958. Dated.
• NoME 1.VI - 1960. Tolkien dated text A to this year.

So "16,000 years" is the final comment Tolkien made on how long ago the Elder Days were, for whatever that's worth.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

You're right, though I'm not sure Angband is relevant.

First off, NoME 1.VI A was revised into 1.VI B. Tolkien repeats the statement of how many years Men had existed before they entered Beleriand, but amends it from 64,534 years to 57,190 years. He still keeps the "not scientifically long enough" statement, too! So the Awakening of Men date should certainly be revised to match that.

But then he did reconsider. 1.XIII.2, for example, places the death of the Trees 96 VY after the Awakening of the Elves, explicitly 13,824 years. Men would obviously have to be younger than that!

But I think it's valid to record what he was thinking at the time. Ultimately there is no One True Answer to this question, so showing all the options is my preferred aproach.

~

Though of course, we can put them in chronological order.

• The Lost Road - pre 1937. Submitted to Allen and Unwin that year.
• Astronomy - 1937-1949. During writing of LotR.
• PoME TV - 1949-50. Dated by CT.
• Letter 211 - October 1958. Dated.
• NoME 1.VI - 1960. Tolkien dated text A to this year.

So "16,000 years" is the final comment Tolkien made on how long ago the Elder Days were, for whatever that's worth.

hS

But aren't all these texts in NoME 1.VI and 1.XIII (2) earlier than the one in 1.XIII (1)?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

But aren't all these texts in NoME 1.VI and 1.XIII (2) earlier than the one in 1.XIII (1)?

Yes; 1.XIII.1 is the latest text in the 'ca. 1959' texts, we think. As I recall it's a chronology of the Quendi from their Awakening to the Great Debate, but doesn't link in to Men or the death of the Trees at all. What am I forgetting?

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Yes; 1.XIII.1 is the latest text in the 'ca. 1959' texts, we think. As I recall it's a chronology of the Quendi from their Awakening to the Great Debate, but doesn't link in to Men or the death of the Trees at all. What am I forgetting?

hS

Well...if 1.XIII (1) is the latest text of the bunch, and if that text has the Awakening of the Quendi in VY 850 - then, given the fact that Men awoke after the Elves, the Awakening of Men has to happen after VY 850 in that conception, doesn't it?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Well...if 1.XIII (1) is the latest text of the bunch, and if that text has the Awakening of the Quendi in VY 850 - then, given the fact that Men awoke after the Elves, the Awakening of Men has to happen after VY 850 in that conception, doesn't it?

I do see your point. All indications are that Tolkien was thinking of the Quendi awakening ca. 13,000 years before the death of the Trees, even if that specific source doesn't confirm the latter date. So Men would need to wake somewhere between VY 850 and 866. 1.VI.A has the Quendi wake in VY 1000, the Finding in 1090, and Men wake in 1100, which is before Melkor is defeated. In 1.XIII.1, the Quendi wake in VY 850 and are found in 865; applying the same ratio means Men would wake about 2/3 of the way through VY 866. 1.XIII.3 has the Great Debate about a VY before the war with Melkor, meaning late VY 866 is a plausible awakening date for Men - just enough time for Melkor to find them and set his plans in motion before he's taken.

End result: Men awaken ca. 10,000 years before the Trees are killed.

But, I'm not going to change the table, because that's a fairly long string of logic. The table records Tolkien's thoughts (or potential thoughts, in the Astronomy version) at various times; it doesn't attempt to make a "final timeline".

That comes next.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I do see your point. All indications are that Tolkien was thinking of the Quendi awakening ca. 13,000 years before the death of the Trees, even if that specific source doesn't confirm the latter date. So Men would need to wake somewhere between VY 850 and 866. 1.VI.A has the Quendi wake in VY 1000, the Finding in 1090, and Men wake in 1100, which is before Melkor is defeated. In 1.XIII.1, the Quendi wake in VY 850 and are found in 865; applying the same ratio means Men would wake about 2/3 of the way through VY 866. 1.XIII.3 has the Great Debate about a VY before the war with Melkor, meaning late VY 866 is a plausible awakening date for Men - just enough time for Melkor to find them and set his plans in motion before he's taken.

End result: Men awaken ca. 10,000 years before the Trees are killed.

But, I'm not going to change the table, because that's a fairly long string of logic. The table records Tolkien's thoughts (or potential thoughts, in the Astronomy version) at various times; it doesn't attempt to make a "final timeline".

That comes next.

hS

I don't know - the First Age lasting c. 14,000 years is still way too long for my taste. While it's true that Tolkien stated that the Ages got progressively shorter as time went on, a jump from the 'First Age = 14,000 years' to the 'Second Age = 3,441 years' is a bit extreme.

Frankly, I much prefer your c. 6,000 years figure in your attempt to devise a 'final' timeline of the First Age. But, after all, that's just my personal preference.




P.S. This may or may not be a good place to share this little tidbit about the Awakening of the Dwarves:

Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aulë returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Later Quenta Silmarillion', 'Concerning the Dwarves', pp. 211-2

Which would put the Awakening of the Dwarves in c. VY 870/872 in your recreation of the 'final' timeline scheme (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e..._2clV5l-ki/pub).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I don't know - the First Age lasting c. 14,000 years is still way too long for my taste. While it's true that Tolkien stated that the Ages got progressively shorter as time went on, a jump from the 'First Age = 14,000 years' to the 'Second Age = 3,441 years' is a bit extreme.

Frankly, I much prefer your c. 6,000 years figure in your attempt to devise a 'final' timeline of the First Age. But, after all, that's just my personal preference.

... okay, I need to check this. Working backwards:

NoME 1.XIII.1 - Quendi awake VY 850, VY = 144 years. Finding VY 864 (2016).
XVII.3 - last scheme, Finding FA 2016, March ca. 2232.
XIII.2A - explicitly marks the Awakening as "First Age Begins".
XVII.2 - Trees destroyed VY 888, "if the Awakening were c. 800", this is where the 13,000 year figure comes from.

So yes, that was wrong. XD The First Age starts in VY 850 with the Awakening, and the Trees die in VY 888. My 'Final Timeline' is correct.

So Men awaken in 866, some 3100 years before the death of the Trees. The dwarves... well, it's difficult, because I always thought the dwarves came before Men, but your quote would have them waking about 3 VY after Men. I don't think those two figures can fit together.

hS

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

P.S. This may or may not be a good place to share this little tidbit about the Awakening of the Dwarves:

Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aulë returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Later Quenta Silmarillion', 'Concerning the Dwarves', pp. 211-2

Which would put the Awakening of the Dwarves in c. VY 870/872 in your recreation of the 'final' timeline scheme (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e..._2clV5l-ki/pub).

And yet:
"The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth..."

Quendi and Eldar, Note 7