Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

But you've posted so little that that ONE objection makes up about a third of the extant scholarly opinion regarding you.

Look, I'll do it, but not now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Just pointing this out, Nogrod: In your Day 2 list you show me getting voted twice and then write me down as being voted once. I take it you just forgot.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is now corrected. I just copy-pasted Brinn's table and upgraded it with the last votes not realising there was a mistake there... those things happen...

Also I'm feeling better with Eomer after his last post.

[EDIT: meaning the second last... not that his last one was bad either even if I think speaking of one still living as a dead one feels pretty weird!!!]

Looking at Brinn's post - if it was Shasta indeed - I'd not be surprised to find out Shasta and Sally were lovers. Although Sally's actions toDay make her look more innocentish than not. But if she is the lover and Shasta is the werecreature that might explain it? Shasta has been rreeaally active this time with little to say... a mark of having something interesting to do and trying to involve oneself but not too happy to actually risk anything?

Originally Posted by Brinn

While the protection of Nogrod cannot confirm whether he's innocent or not, I'm more inclined to believe the former.

Now why to say that? It has no significance whatsoever.

I can see it as a sign of goodwill or trust (and that's appreciated Brinn, if it be that, and that's an honest comment) but gamewise it has no meaning - unless it is that you are trying to create a general feeling about you "seeing already the innocentness" of the one innocent tomorrow gone - after you kill me the next Night that is? Okay, you're not the only one who has said that but check toMorrow all those who have done it.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts -great, people are starting to play!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

So you mean you haven't read those 10 pages at all, or have just skimmed over them, yet you suspect & vote people?

Here and here.

edit: xed with Nog

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Most certainly it would. But one objection is not enough for me to spend an hour or something reading, thinking, and writing. As a matter of fact, I should probably get off WW now and work.

Let me help you.

++Gollum

We have too many slackers in this game, and I don't agree with Nogrod that just because it wouldn't make an honorable win, they aren't evil - especially in that one's case.

EDIT: Somehow X'd with Gollum, Nog & Agan.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh dear. I see a dangerous bandwagon forming. Not that there are no points against Gollum but don't let today's voting be wasted. Pick your own vote; don't let others do it for you.

I think I'm one day away from making a list of all the villagers and typing my thoughts on each one. Right now... nah. I'd just be saying a lot of the same things, and that's boring. Let's just say that should anything happen to me in the night, my theory now of trying lynching Mac or Greenie is the most appealing to me. Otherwise, no real clue. Large villages are hard to get into, but I think on Day 4 things will get really interesting.

So I'll vote in a couple of minutes.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Just looking through yesterday's Nogrod-related posts. Trying to understand why he was attacked. I mean, Nogrod? Loud, always in your face, guaranteed to start trouble and get lynched Nogrod? Doesn't make sense. Has to be a reason.

Not only was he attacked, but he was protected. It would be funny if he was also dreamed of, provided we have a seer-type role floating around. Not that I'm a proponent of the seer coming forward at this point to answer that question. Not unless you've got some useful information to give.

I'm thinking- he caught a few eyes at least. Maybe the lovers picked him because he was an easy kill: hard to trace somebody everybody's looking at. Much easier to ask questions about why a pair of lovers would want to kill Kitanna. Not that they're questions with answers, but can you see my point? If I was picking a 'wolf' kill, I'd pick somebody who'd cause harmless talk the next day. If I was Ranger, I'd pick the player it seemed most likely to me the 'wolves' would want. If I was Seer, I'd pick somebody I didn't think was going to die in the night. What good's a Seer dream of somebody who isn't alive?

Have Lovers games ever had Hunter characters? Could be amusing. Can you imagine a sort of Cupid figure chasing after bad guys in the night with a bow and arrow? It could be a sort of Romeo and Juliet thing: the Hunter dies and takes someone out with him. You know, Hunter's almost a lover role in itself. It would fit, in terms of theme.

Thoughts? The more I think on it, the more outrageous it seems, but hey... you never know.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Let me help you.

++Gollum

We have too many slackers in this game, and I don't agree with Nogrod that just because it wouldn't make an honorable win, they aren't evil - especially in that one's case.

I do agree with you about slackers and I'd like to see werewolf with only non-slackers on board as it would be much more interesting and fun that way when one doesn't have to just quess like in a lottery but one could actually try to figure things out about everyone with substantial posting. You know we agree on this matter.

But as it is my last Day here I must say it aloud: your vote is soo easy. Playing on a principle and getting out of the trouble early enough?

If my future were less clear I might have accepted that and even voted with you just to see a more "graspable" game on Days to come whatever the result... but now I'm inclined to point this out. Your voting record really bothers me Rikae. First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Looks more like a baddie-Rikae than an ordo version of you...

EDit: X'd with Eomer and Fea

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I wouldn't agree with that, Fea. maybe it's just a mentality thing. Kitanna seems a very sensible kill to me. She's so conservative in these games, so level-headed. A good survivor, which makes her a good potential lover.

Nogrod? That's Lynch Mob Town that way, dearie. Argumentative; the spotlight loves him; he's practically a cobbler for these lovers. Unless it was a great, great bluff... but I doubt it.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear. I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

[Rikae]

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it... which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)

EDIT: By "reveal him/herself" I mean tip the baddies off by being too obvious - not actually revealing.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm tired. Gan i' bed, ken?

I won't vote for Macalaure, purely because people would see it as a spite vote. Instead I will vote for the other person incriminated by my somewhat arbitrary Nogrod-theory.

++A LITTLE GREEN

I can't go with feelings because I'm sure Greenie is capable of displaying an air of nonchalance over any hidden evil. I can handle only so much suspicion based on feelings this early in the game. Nogrod was attacked, you have to ask why. Think about Kitanna too. Build theories around facts, don't just see the malice wherever you will.

Fully aware of the hypocrisy there relating to my vote on Day 2 ( ) but there's more to go on today.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Oh dear. I see a dangerous bandwagon forming. Not that there are no points against Gollum but don't let today's voting be wasted. Pick your own vote; don't let others do it for you.

Eomer has a good point here but somehow it makes me feel a bit uneasy. I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.
If this was a traditional ww game with a pack of wolves, I'd say Eomer was trying to discourage voting Gollum. But if he was Gollum's lover, there would be no sense in defending him in such a subtle way.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.

What exactly are those reasons?

edit: xed with Rikae & Eomer

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear.

I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.

Fea - and all others - let's remember there are at least two teams with different people in them. And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).


Now on the first Night the lovers operated they picked Legate and Lalaith.

On the second one they picked Kitanna and me.

It would talk on behalf of two sides if the one pair picked Lal and Kit and the other targeted Legate and me. So they have targeted two good players who tend to be a bit low key and two who tend to be the loudmouths. That's what the baddies have tried so far. Whether it's consistency or not we can't tell.

Also: if there are more pairs it would get more complicated but the basic lines of choice do suggest there are two teams indeed - and maybe the thing is that their interrelation is something we don't know? Like that they know each other but can't kill each other or something. Well, who knows...

Gah... I seem to have X'd with a host of posts. Coming back soon....

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

Is that the only reason you voted him?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Is that the only reason you voted him?

Nope, because he's been following other people's suspicions too much and being completely unhelpful, his only interest seems to be self preservation, and because he doesn't like rock music*.


*Yes, that last one was a joke. So there.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath. One reason that comes to mind is that a lot of people may find the same person supicious because that person is suspicious... :P

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

If you know who's a bad guy and enough people vote for that player, the bad guys can't band together to save him or her. Sole benefit.

[Gwathagor]

True. But that hardly merits Aganzir's use of the plural!

[Aganzir]

I'm too tired to stay up any longer so I'll vote now.

++ GOLLUM

I would still be interested to hear his comments on my suspicions, but I'm not going to put off voting him yet another day just because he won't respond to me.

Originally Posted by Gwath

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

Firstly, you often need a bandwagon in order to lynch someone.
Secondly, even if there's been a bandwagon, it's relatively easy to see who just jumped in without actual suspicions for the person in question, maybe so as to save someone else from the gallows.

edit: xed with Rikae, Fea & Gwath.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Agan

What exactly are those reasons?

It'll all come out in the wash.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.

You were still suggesting I would. I've been around long enough to know Agan is a formidible player and one who will retaliate. Good or evil, why would I go after her in the first place if I didn't think there was a case (except, of course, to judge her by her reaction)?

Originally Posted by Nog

And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).

I'm not buying this theory (in part because the narration hasn't suggested it at all, and in part because I just don't see 8 suspicious people in this village.)
Fact is, since I think there are relatively few baddies among us, I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

EDIT: X'd with Fea, Gwath and Agan

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

Weirdly, I support this. I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it...

It's very probable indeed. In the last game Rune was the seer and only picked the quiet ones assuming the loud ones would talk themselves into trouble sooner or later.

So do not count on that - not to say of trying to persuade us of it - as different seers have different tactics!

But to be honest your point looks wolfy indeed...

Originally Posted by Rikae

which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)

I must have missed something as this doesn't make any sense to me... What are you trying to say here? Sorry, but I just can't grasp this. To what are you referring to?

I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!

So where does all this speculation come from?

I'm getting really afraid of you Rikae - or at least very much baffled.

EDIT: X'd from #416

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.

Supported 100%! The game needs to be played. Just sneaking around is not playing but destroying the game for those who'd actually wish to play as they introduce the totally random element into the game.

Sadly this is my last Day so I hope you understand I will also bother you who actually play. This is my last chance at this game game so I will have to try all I have time and energy to - and it includes suspecting you my dear fellow loudmouths...

[Rikae]

Once agan, Nog, you're barking up the wrong tree - and I hate to see you wasting what's probably your last day here looking at me.

Different seers have different tactics - sure - but the majority tend to choose loud players who are considered dangerous or hard to read, especially when they attract a lot of attention, as I have done (on a slightly OT note, why am I everyone's "random" vote choice in this game?)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!

Di made a point of saying that there were no werewolves, that this was a "lovers game". I assume that means all our baddies are "lovers", and, to be any use at all, the seer can see them.
The baddies could also conclude I've probably been dreamt of, for the same reasons I can conclude it. Plenty of people have been after me by Day, every Day - where have you been? I hope the seer doesn't come forward to defend me, which was part of my point.

EDIT: X'd with Nog

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sadly this is my last Day so I hope you understand I will also bother you who actually play. This is my last chance at this game game so I will have to try all I have time and energy to - and it includes suspecting you my dear fellow loudmouths...

The irony would be, of course, if the Lovers didn't actually pick you tonight as an effort to set you up.

[Nogrod]

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

The irony would be, of course, if the Lovers didn't actually pick you tonight as an effort to set you up.

Haha! I'd love that kind of irony!!!

Set me up guys! Set me up! That's your best choice, believe me!

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

Like I said earlier, I've put him at a lower level of suspicion because he seemed calm and didn't overreact to accusations.
In addition, I'll also mention (sorry to bring in meta-things) that he's hosting a party tonight and hasn't really slept in two days, so when he turns up he probably will just vote (if that) and go to bed. I wouldn't want to go after him when he couldn't defend himself, personally.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm going to a Halloween party, and this will be my absolute last chance to get on the computer today.

++McCaber

Happy Halloween/Samhain, everyone.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Speaking of parties, I decided to ditch the one tonight in favor of a few drinks and a scary movie with one of my girls. Creepy dead children, here I come.

Anyway, that essentially means I'll be around on and off until probably midnight or so.

[Gollum the Great]

Ok. Aganzir, you suspect me because (from those two links)

1) I am wary of three people.

2) Because you seem to think I give weak reasons for being wary.

3) Because I considered you excited.

4) Because I voted Lommy because I didn't trust her. I got the idea (now I may be wrong) from last game that it is better to vote than not. I had almost no grounds to vote anyone else, and I could have voted you.

5) Because I seem to be going with the flow of the other players.


Are those your reasons for suspecting me? If you consider me to be going with the other players, I ask you how anyone can do that since the range of opinions and suspicions is so wide and varied. I see nothing wrong in considering you excited, being wary of 3 players, or of giving lame reasons for being wary (I mean, I didn't want to vote for those people).

If there is anything I left out, please notify me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

In addition, I'll also mention (sorry to bring in meta-things) that he's hosting a party tonight and hasn't really slept in two days, so when he turns up he probably will just vote (if that) and go to bed. I wouldn't want to go after him when he couldn't defend himself, personally.

Well, he voted already...

Also I do dislike in principle that zero-argument of "let's not vote for someone who hasn't a chance to defend her/himself" as that might be a very convenient bluff to anyone - not to speak of the larger issue of people being able to only vote Americans or Europeans depending on the deadline!

I mean everyone should be guaranteed a right to vote the one they see as the most suspicious person whether that person is going to be online to defend her-/himself after the given vote or not.

Why should people with unconvenient deadline be immune to voting?

(I do appreciate the reasons you give for him not posting more toDay Rikae, but the question remains whether his inability to post more or later makes him more innocent.)

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, he voted already...

Oh, duh. *facepalm*

Originally Posted by Mac

(I do appreciate the reasons you give for him not posting more toDay Rikae, but the question remains whether his inability to post more or later makes him more innocent.)

I didn't say that made him more innocent, I just said it was a reason for me not to go after him toDay.

[Nogrod]

You also voted already Rikae...

So you were that confident with your vote - or are just a baddie feeling comfortable enough to wash your hands from the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after your vote eg. meaning you could have voted later as well?

So why did youi vote already?

As an innocent I would leave my vote to the last possible instant if I knew I could be online after that moment. Well, if I actually knew who the baddie is I could vote earlier, but show me a case where an innocent villager is that sure that s/he could believe nothing coming would change her/his opinion - or do you dare to claim you know Gollum is a baddie!...

You never know when someone will fumble and totally screw her/his case so a reasonable person would wait and see until s/he has to retire as any post might break the scene.

Your actions speak strongly against your innocence.

Sorry...

[Rikae]

Nog, please, if you find me that guilty, vote me and be done with it and go look at someone else before you run out of time. That's really all I have to say to you anymore.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You also voted already Rikae...

So you were that confident with your vote - or are just a baddie feeling comfortable enough to wash your hands from the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after your vote eg. meaning you could have voted later as well?

Actually, I'm an ordo feeling comfortable enough to wash my hands of the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after my vote.

Originally Posted by Nog

As an innocent I would leave my vote to the last possible instant if I knew I could be online after that moment. Well, if I actually knew who the baddie is I could vote earlier, but show me a case where an innocent villager is that sure that s/he could believe nothing coming would change her/his opinion - or do you dare to claim you know Gollum is a baddie!...

Well, good for you. I don't do the same thing every day, every game, myself.
If we have, as I think we do, only 4 baddies who aren't even a team, I can afford a hasty vote.

But like I said above, if you find me so incredibly suspicious, please, go ahead. I'll even come out and say "I'm a baddie" if it will end your unhealthy fixation.
You said you were going to look at everyone, and I'd like to see you do that. If I am indeed a baddie, I'm certainly doing a good job of distracting you.

[Rikae]

Also, Nogrod, have you ever suspected anyone but Mac or I since we started playing werewolf? Think about it.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can see it as a sign of goodwill or trust (and that's appreciated Brinn, if it be that, and that's an honest comment) but gamewise it has no meaning - unless it is that you are trying to create a general feeling about you "seeing already the innocentness" of the one innocent tomorrow gone - after you kill me the next Night that is? Okay, you're not the only one who has said that but check toMorrow all those who have done it.

So what, you're saying it's a waste of time for me to state my opinion of you just because you're a goner? I agree it's not worth analysing you...that'd be a waste of time. But I think it'd be silly to completely ignore you and not share any opinion whatsoever.

These attacks towards Gollum bother me. Some of what Gollum says is flawed, but they seem more like newbie mistakes. It just feels to me that he's an easy lynch target- a scapegoat. I'm uncomfortable voting for any easy lynch targets because most often they turn out innocent.

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.

[Rikae]

Actually, at this point, I'm so sick and disgusted with this game, and eager to have all the stupid accusations against me proven wrong, if I still had my vote I'd cast it against myself.
Nogrod, I think you're innocent, and I wish I could get you to snap out of this... obsessiveness. I mean, above you accused me of claiming Mac was more innocent because he was absent - you aren't even reading what you're responding to anymore.

Ok, that really is it. I swear, I'm not answering again.

EDIT: X'd with Brinn who spoiled my quadruple post.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.

I suggest you vote me, than. You, Nog and Cabbie's "random" vote will tie me with Gollum, and, frankly, this game doesn't need me if it's as unbalanced as I think, and I'm more interested in proving you, Nogrod, etc. wrong at this poitn than in surviving where I'm no use anyway.