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10-27-2003, 02:41 PM | #41 | |
King's Writer
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Since the Discussions about Fog had been idle the last days, I couldn't resist and had put my hand one Maedhros stuff in the privat forum.
But since I wished to have that discussion here in the open forum, I have to find a way to strip it from most of its textual value. That's hard to do and takes some time. So please be patient if this comes up only bit by bit. I will start in this thread with the "General changes" and since in that there is not text I will first give Meadhros post from the privat forum as Quote: Quote:
RD-19 & 17 I am not sure in the moment, but I think Nauglath is still valide word for Dwarves in general. So in most circumstances I would let it stand. The association of the Firebeards and Broadbeams with the Dwarves of the Ered Luin is clear. But How did you come to the conclusion that the Broadbeams were the Dwarves of Belegost? I would take the Firebeards as take over from the Indrafangs or Longbeards just by the association of both with beards. RD-26 The change it self is unquestionable. But is Amras still alive in our version of the story? RD-34 Galweg was the father of Flinding in The Tale of Turambar. The proper update would be Guilin father of Gwindor and Gelmir. So, that's it for this thread. I will open a new one for each section that Meadhros had propused. Respectfully Findegil [ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ] |
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10-28-2003, 03:26 PM | #42 | |||
The Kinslayer
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-03-2003, 03:13 PM | #43 | ||
The Kinslayer
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Other details that can be added to our Ruin of Doriath:
From The Peoples of ME: The Problem of Ros Quote:
From Unfinished Tales: Description of the Land of Númenor Quote:
Aranrúth: "King's Ire". I was wondering if we could be more specific with these items as they were passed along in the story.
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03-01-2004, 09:40 AM | #44 |
The Kinslayer
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I wonder, now that it appears that our draft for the Fall of Gondolin seems to be over, dare I say it is time to tackle the previous chapter of the Ruin of Doriath in which much of the major work appears to be done by Findegil and myself?
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03-01-2004, 12:52 PM | #45 |
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I also pondered that. But it could also be wise to run into the tale of Earendil first, since we had started a discussion on some points at the beginning of this tale as well.
Equally what we do, I would like to have a reminder of some small point which Aiwendil once brought up: Aiwendil did once criticise our styl of formating the edited text. He refered to a standard format agreed upon early in the project. I search for it but I have neither found the kritik of Aiwendil nor any early post were a format was agree upon. If some one could guide me to this I will rework my Fall of Doriath chapter and post a basic text for Of Eärendil and the War or Wrath (basic, because it is only the blend of the texts of Quenta Noldorinwa, Quenta Silmarillion and the emendations to the Later Quenta Silmarillion typoscript). Respectfully Findegil |
03-01-2004, 01:37 PM | #46 |
The Kinslayer
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Oh, what Aiwendil was referring was that the editorial additions by us should be between square brackets [], whereas the introduction of material from other sources: Book of Lost Tales, Narn, etc, should be in this type of brackets <>.
I had not implemented that because at that time, I had problems posting with those brackets and I used the square ones for the introduction of material as well as editorial additions. This was later clarified by Mr. Underhill. It is funny that we trying to finish first the last chapters instead of going in order. It has merit of course because it is the last chapters the ones that require the most work because of the state in which JRRT left them. I wonder if we should go with Of Eärendil and the War of Wrath, instead of the Ruin of Doriath. We might as well go with Eärendil as to keep for the continuity.
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03-01-2004, 03:40 PM | #47 |
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I think that after finishing the Fall of Gondolin it would be good to step back and discuss some general project issues and procedural things before immediately rushing into a new project.
I will open a new thread where we can discuss these things, as well as what our next project/projects should be. |
08-16-2004, 02:42 AM | #48 | |||||
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Reading this Post (and the following) it might seem that I had again to much time at my disposal. Properly that is the case, since I am in holyday at home in the moment. But on the other hand I did work for these posts for some time. The reason for this post was Meadhros Draft 4 for FoD, which he had send to me and which he hopped could be our working basis for the coming FoD discussions. But sad as it is I could not agree on this. Not only that some details of his text were not to my liking, I found also some points of the storyline he created to be not fitting my view of the story. While I was reading Maedhros draft I also marked some mistakes in the storyline of my own draft. Thus I thought that it would be best to discuss the storyline first. And this is the thread proposed to do it.
To do so we need to have a look at the sources, and I will in this post try to give an complete overview about all the storylines in the different sources we have for the Fall of Doriath. In some place I will only give short summary of the text to illuminate the Storyline. In other place were the source itself is more like a storyline or can only add to some particular points of interest I will give the source in full. Since we agreed already on the beginning of our Tale to be the continuation of The Wanderings of Húrin I will start my research at the point were Húrin reached Nargothrond. In many cases (and also in our Tale) Húrin will have gathered by that time a band of “Outlaws” thus I will start with any storyline with a short description of that band. The First account of the Fall of Doriath is given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales 2; chapter II: Túrin Turambar and the Foaloke (TT) and chapter IV: The Tale of the Nauglafring (TN) I will give in this case an extracted Story line: The Band of Húrin were here outlawed Elves “of the Hills”. Húrin dealt Mîm (who was in that Tale unconnected to the earlier story of Túrin) to death because of the cruses Mîm did utter above the gold when Húrins Band bear it out of the hall. Húrin brought his Band to carry the gold to Thingols halls. There he cast the Gold at Thingols feet and left with an unknown fate. Later his soul is reported to hunt together with Morwens the forest of Brethil. The Outlaws did bargain with Thingol and tried to cheat but were stopped by Elves that were already under the spell of the Dragon Gold. The resulting fight in the hall was stopped by Thingols troops how killed the outlaws. Ufedhin urged the King to sent part of the Gold to Nogord. Thingol let bear half the gold to Nogord. Ufedhin is imprisoned as a security to get the gold back. The Nauglath of Nogrod smith beautiful things for Thingol and bring them back. Thingol imprisoned the dwarves to fashion the rest of the gold. The Dwarves make a second attempt at the gold. When they see that Thingol is happy with what they made they ask the favour to make the Nauglamir with the Silmaril. When the Dwarves had fashioned the Necklace they do by the machinations of Ufedhin demand a unplayable price for all their labour. The dwarves are humiliated, scanty paid and driven away with Ufedhin. The Nauglath under their King Naugladur form an alliance with the Dwarves of Belegost under their King Bodruith and with the Orks. They hear of the death of Mîm and claim the gold to belong to the Dwarves. The Dwarves pass the girdle by treachery of some Elves who are under the spell of the Gold. Thingol is slain by the Nauglath during a hunt in which Mablung (also slain) and Huan take part. (Huan was in that version killed by Carcharoth but did reappear here without any explanation.) Ufedhin with an Army of the Dwarves of Belegost and Orcs overruns Menegroth but is daunted by Melians eyes. Naugladur comes to Menegroth bearing the Nauglamir and Thingols head on a pole. He let gather all the riches and tried to imprison Melian. But she leaves Menegroth wandering around without propose. Naugladur left the rest of folk of Menegroth to the Orks and left with Ufedhin and all the Dwarves. Huan brings the message to Beren and Lúthien (in Hithlum). Beren gathers an Army of Green-Elves and pursuit the Dwarves. Ufedhin tries to kill Naugladur and steal the Nauglamir, but is discovered by Bodruith whom he kills. Before he flees. A feud awakes between the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost and the Dwarves of Belegost are killed or driven away. Ufedhin is captured by the Green-Elves and brought to Beren. He reveals the route that Naugladur will take to Nogrod. Beren and his Green-Elves ambushes the Dwarves at the Ford Arosiach. Many Dwarves are killed by the Elven-archers, some fled away toward the mountains (nothing is told of their fate, if they are not identical with the later searchers who are killed by a flood.) Beren assails Naugladur and his bodyguard. After he killed one of the guards the others fled. Beren fights with Naugladur. In the End he kills Naugladur with mere luck. Beren takes the Nauglamir but the treasure is cast in the River. Lúthien wears the Nauglamir. When Melian appears, Ufedhin flies madden into the woods. After Melain is healed by Lúthien she tells the full tale and warns Beren and Luthien about the Nauglamir, so that Luthien does no longer wear it. Melain leaves toward Valinor. After the early fading of Luthien her son Dior goes with his family and the Nauglamir to Doriath and re-established the Realm. When the Sons of Feanor hear of the Dior wearing the Nauglamir they send Curufin to Doriath and claim the Silmaril. The claim is rejected by Dior and Curufin send away with bitter words. The Brothers assail Doriath. Dior and his Son Auredhir are killed. Elwing fled with the Nauglamir. A host of Diors Elves came lat into the battle and fell at the rear of Feanorians. In the text Maglor is slain by swords and Amras dies by wounds in the wild. Celegrom and Caranthir are shot with arrows. But the Feanorians won the day. After some wandering in the woods Elwing gathers the remnant of the Elves and wanders to Havens of Sirion. The next telling of the tale was The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter II: The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’ or Sketch of the Mythology (S). I will give it in full, since it is not much more than an outline: Quote:
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It remain only the Annals with their scanty words and some hints given later in separate Notes. Lets start with the earliest Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter VII: The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB1) Quote:
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Hurin has no companions, when he reaches Nargothrond. He killed Mîm because of Mîms treason against Turin. The hoard is not crused further than being a dragon-hoard. Hurin only took the Nauglamir and brought it to Menegroth. Hurin is healed by Melian, but gave the Nauglamir nonetheless to Thingol who accepted it. Hurin left Menegroth and it is told that he cast himself in the western sea. Some Dwarves of Nogrod are already in Menegroth and Thingol bid them to bring the Silmaril and the Nauglamir together. He is with the Dwarves during the smithy and when the work is done the Dwarves withheld the Nauglamir from him. Thingol scorned and denied the Dwarves any payment and is slain by them. The Dwarves take the Nauglamir and passed out Menegroth but were pursued and slain save two. The Nauglamir is brought back to Menegroth and guarded by Mablung. The two surviving Dwarves made it to Nogrod, and told there only that the Dwarves were slain by the command of Thingol to cheat them of their reward. The Dwarves of Nogrod ask the aid of Belegost but it is denied. A host of Nogord marched to Doriath. After the death of Thingol Melain sends word to Beren and Luthien and left Doritah and went to Valinor. The Dwarves invade Doriath and take Menegroth. There they kill Mablung and take the Nauglamir. Beren with Dior and the Green-Elves of Ossiriand ambush the Dwarves at Saran Athrad. Dwarves that made it out of the battle are killed by the Ents. Beren kills the Lord of Nogord but he crused the Hoard. Thus Beren only takes the Nauglamir and the rest of the Hoard is drowned in the river Ascar. Dior left Ossiriand and re-established Doriath. He receives the Nauglamir after the death of Beren and Luthien. The Sons of Feanor claim the Silmaril but Dior made no answer. Celegorm stirred his brethren and they attack Doriath. The kill Dior in Menegroth. Celegrom is slain by Dior and Curufin and Caranthir are also slain. Nimloth is also killed and the Sons of Dior left to strafe in the woods. But a few Elves fled before the Feanorians and with them was Elwing with the Nauglamir. So fare with the sources. The next step it must be to bring them together to a storyline that we will adopt, and I will try that in the next post. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-16-2004, 03:14 AM | #49 | |
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In this post I will try to develop a storyline that can be adopted for our Version of FoD. I will not recapitulate the storylines that were developed by Maedhros and myself for our drafts of the story. After we have found the storyline that we want we should make a intense comparison.
I will number the single entities I see in the storyline for better reference with FD-SL-ZZ (SL for storyline). FD-SL-01 From the notes at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin it is clear that the Band that Húrin gathered were of four-fold origin: Asgons Outlaws of Hithlum, part of Manthors party in Brethil that were not willing to live under Avranc, some people of Brethil that despaired in defending Brethil and some of the Woodmen from south of Taeglin. (These groups are the key to explain their behaviour later on. In my view the Outlaws are a very divergent group with Asgon and Ragnir as voices of opposite positions. The followers of Manthor would take Húrin as their rightful ruler as the last know decedent of the Haladin. The other two groups would go with them to find some better life as they had have so fare. They would most likely side with the Ragnir party and would rather take their share in the treasure than humiliate Thingol with it.) FD-SL-02 Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond. FD-SL-03 Mîm and his death is the first hard part we have to overcome: Mîm is now bound up with the House of Hador. He had given away Túrin to the Orcs. In none of JRR Tolkiens tellings of Mîms death was this the case. In TT it is Húrin who kills Mîm after he had uttered bitter words and cruses over the Outlaws bearing away the gold. In the Q30 Mîm is slain by the Outlaws and Húrin would have stopped them. In Any other source no specific information is given. In Sil77 Húrin must kill Mîm since he is alone and does it by reason of Mîms treason to Túrin. But the scene in Sil77 seems not so well developed to me. Húrin is able of such violence as the killing of Mîm would be but in Brethil he showed it more in the fashion of outbursts of fury, and Mîm who was not willing to depart from a sack of roots (even if they were of gold as is suggested) would not give away the treasure of Nagothrond so easily. If Húrin did know of the treason of Mîm is not so clear to me. What would have reported would be the dead of Khîm and Túrins not fulfilled promise to pay a wergild for Khîm when ever he comes to some riches. Thus for me it would be thinkable that the Outlaws would kill Mîm despise the will of Húrin as in Q30. FD-SL-04 The cruse of Mîm has clearly to be re-established in our version since Tolkien never discarded it. FD-SL-05 That the outlaws died in quarrels on the road as in Q30 should not be used if we follow Christopher Tolkiens suggestions in TY that the outlaws are the the way to bring the treasure to Menegroth. FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT. FD-SL-07 The conversation between Húrin and Thingol might need change but the outcome is clear: Húrin left Menegroth after he had cast the hoard at Thingols feed and blamed him for the death of Nienor and Morwen. That he was healed by Melain must go, since we have no trace of it in JRR Tolkiens text and it fit the tragedy of the Narn even better if he goes with out healing. In all full told versions he goes forth from Menegroth alone and I think now we should stick to that. His further fate is unknown safe the rumour that he had cast himself in the western sea. The behaviour of the Outlaws was already discussed at length. But it is still the most clumsy part of the tale. Things that must be answered or left ambiguous in our Version: FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely. FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken. FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed. FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves. FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown. FD-SL-13 In TN after they had fashioned many nice things the Dwarves asked Thingol to make the Nauglafring. In S and the Q30 it sounds more like Thingol asking them to make the Nauglamir but the text is very compressed and such detail might be lost by compression. Seeing in The Hobbit what a self-illuminated jewel does with the heart of a Dwarf I would rather go back to the old tale were it seemed already part of the plan of the Dwarves to get the Silmaril by bringing it together with the gold of doubtful ownership. At least I would like to have the request for the Nauglamir put after Dwarves showed their talent at the gold. As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that: FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury. FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward. FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away. FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit: Quote:
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment. FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves. FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage. FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived. FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar). FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien. I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN). FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN. FD-SL-25 It would be difficult to use the Letter more strictly and cut out the Green-Elves completely. In this respect I think we should regard the words “Beren has no army” of the Letter as a planed reconstruction not workable with the text we have. The only thing we could do is make the number of Elves as small as thinkable. We could use the counter-attack of the dwarves told in TN led them into the woods were they were attacked by the Ents instate or in addition of the flight of a company as it is in Sil77. In that way we could (implicit not explicit of course) reduce the Green-Elves to a very small band just great enough to make the Dwarves furious enough to rush into a fight against them. FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it. FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text. FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like. FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best. FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien. FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY. FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version. That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told: FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain. FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods. FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”. FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion. So fare what I think should be our storyline. I hope it will help to create a version of tale that we all can go with. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-16-2004, 09:39 AM | #50 | ||||||
The Kinslayer
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As for the treasure, I would make them take some bits of it as Thingol offered in the Tale. I tried to make ambiguous the fate of the outlaws in my latest draft. Quote:
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Such a great worked gold would definitely would make Thingol think twice before throwing it away. Perhaps this could work into our advantage in that the dwarves were only summoned to make the Nauglamír and some other little smitting of the gold. And the quarrel of the dwarves and Thingol is to be because of differences in the amount of gold that Thingol is to paid them and we would cut the other types of payment that the dwarves wanted from the Tale. I will comment on the rest of it later.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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08-16-2004, 04:01 PM | #51 | ||||||||||||
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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08-17-2004, 03:18 AM | #52 | ||||||||||||
King's Writer
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FD-SL-06: Posted by Maedhros:
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FD-SL-09 & FD-SL-10: I am still not quiet happy with the scene of the departure and the suggestion of some fate for the outlaws. It might be that we need the help such a master of ambiguous writing as Aiwendil to do that in a fashion that satisfies us all. FD-SL-11: So were are again in a dead lock. Since I can not see Thingol simply dismiss his first impulse to get ride of the treasure just by looking on it again. Further I think that you overestimated the role I would use Ufedhin here. I would have taken him as an Elf that had fallen under the cruse of Mîm and did lure Thingol not to through the gold away, nothing more. When I think about the behaviour of Saeros during the feast he is an good example for an Elf-Lord that would fit the role of Ufedhin I have proposed above. The later treason of Narthseg (which I only meant to bring Naugladur some info of the hunt so that he could time his machinations to lure Thingol out of the Gridle) is a completely independent issue. It could of course be connected by using one and the same person in both roles, but that would really be to much liberty in creating a new character. FD-SL-12: Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
I am not convinced that the Dwarves were only engaged to fashion the Nauglamir. The other payments demanded by the Dwarves are clearly debatable. But we need something to lunch a quarrel and these demanded payments seemed perfect for that. FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury. Oh, sorry a bad misprint of mine. It should read: The Dwarves already planed treachery. Meaning that they lusted for the treasure and sought for a way to get hold on it. Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
Alternative we could consider the statement in The Hobbit to refer to the first fight in Menegroth between the Dwarven-smiths and the Elves. But that would mean that the Dwarven-smith must capture some part of the treasure for which we have no hint at all in JRR Tolkiens texts. FD-SL-20: Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
And up to this point you have been the one that argued with the potency of the cruse of Mîm. Isn't a treacherous Elf a plausibly result of that cruse? FD-SL21: Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
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FD-SL-24: Yes it works well, and we have already done some step in removing the innumerable host of Green-Elves that jumped from behind each tree when Beren sounded his horn. When we workout the passage I will give the purposed further reduction a try and we can see how it works. At least I have the feeling that we know begin to discuss the core of the problems we have each with version of the other and not only the textual details. Even if I in the moment don't see us move nearer to any agreement. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-17-2004 at 03:32 AM. |
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08-17-2004, 08:39 AM | #53 |
Late Istar
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Just wanted to let both of you know that I've been following this discussion. I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today. If not, then, alas, I'll be away for a few days with no internet.
I think I can say in general that I'm wary of a lot of the proposals so far and I may end up advocating a lot less use of LT, unfortunately. |
08-17-2004, 08:44 PM | #54 |
Late Istar
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FD-SL-03: I'd say it's possible, and even likely, that Hurin's slaying of Mim would have been restored if "Wanderings" had continued. But I do not think we have the authority to return to that story in violation of Q30. I guess I would go with the story in Q30 for Mim's death.
FD-SL-05: We have at least some indication that Tolkien might have intended to keep the outlaws alive up to Menegroth, since he says in relation to "Wanderings" that they are the "nucleus of the force" with which Hurin brings ruin to Doriath. The other piece of "evidence" here is simply Christopher's observation that Hurin's gesture is ruined by his being forced to get Thingol to send for the very treasure which is to be so dramaticly cast at his feet. Still, some part of me says that since Q30 is the last full account of the Ruin of Doriath and we don't have any clear renunciation of that story, we ought at least to consider following the story there, however inadequate it may seem. It would at least obviate the problem of the fate of the outlaws. FD-SL-06: The only logical way that Hurin can have gotten into Doriath is if he was led through the Girdle; so in an abstract sense I agree with Maedhros. I am not sure, however, that either lifting text from elsewhere in TT or inventing a secret bridge over Sirion to match that over Esgalduin is the way to achieve it. We could perhaps be ambiguous here. FD-SL-08: This is one of the two really tricky parts in my view. I fear we can only go so far with ambiguous sentences. I am not at all satisfied with any of the possibilities: 1. The outlaws are killed on the way to Doriath, as in Q30. The trouble with this is of course that it ruins Hurin's gesture. We have what might be interpreted as an indication from JRRT that it was rejected; we also have the strong condemnation of the story by Christopher. 2. The outlaws battle with the Elves in Menegroth. This was the story in TT, but was rejected; there is no reason to think that it would ever have been re-introduced. It seems out of place in the later Silmarillion; also it seems likely that the inadequate story found in Q30 was devised to avoid this. 3. The outlaws leave peacefully. This is not found in any text; also there may be a problem with them escaping the curse of Mim. FD-SL-11: I definitely don't think that we can re-introduce Ufedhin; nor can we invent a new character in his place. I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there. FD-SL-12 and FD-SL-13: Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is. FD-SL-17: I don't know whether to consider The Hobbit in contradiction with Q30 or not. Christopher certainly didn't seem to think it was, at any rate. The statement in The Hobbit is quite general and clearly not intended to say anything about the precise sequence of events. I guess in the end I don't really see the contradiction - the Dwarves can go to war after the slaying of their kin and still be going to "retrieve their treasure". FD-SL-19: Would the news of Mim's death really have point for the Dwarves of Nogrod, considering the later conception of the Petty Dwarves? FD-SL-20: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction. FD-SL-21: Tolkien could have revived the hunt story but did not. I don't see why we can't simply follow Tolkien's idea - that he was "induced to go to war beyond his borders". It becomes a problem only if we insist on investing every portion of the story with the level of detail found in the Lost Tales. Why not use the bald statement that "Thingol was induced to go to war beyond his borders"? Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath." FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings. FD-SL-23: I think we can follow the note, much as Findegil suggests, in having Melian depart immediately. But I don't see a definite need to delete the Q30 story that she brought the message to Beren and Luthien before she departed for Valinor. Though I do understand the awkwardness of that solution. If that's deemed unworkable, I would go with Findegil's suggestion that she immediately goes to Valinor and that the message is brought to Beren and Luthien by some anonymous messenger. FD-SL-27: This is indeed problematic. I'll think about it. |
08-17-2004, 11:09 PM | #55 | |||||||||||
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08-18-2004, 03:15 AM | #56 | |||||||
King's Writer
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First of all: Aiwendil it is nice to have your attention in this discussion.
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Your generall remark that you would rather would like to go with Q30 than add things without need from TT and TN I can accept concerning the storyline and I would in some points even go further than you have done in this, as will be seen below. But as ever when the storyline is once settled I would go and fetch details of the text from LT to elaborat our text as far as possible. But still that is not the goal of the discussion in this thread. Now to the points you commented on: FD-SL-03: I am okay here with the story of Q30. But I would have a hard time to use the text of Q30 without any addition. FD-SL-05: I think the evidence we have against Q30 in having the outlaws killed in quarrels on the road is hard enough. Of course we could argue that the change is not workable since the fate of the outlaws could not be solved by us, but that seemed a to conservativ fiew to me. FD-SL-06: The secret bridge was not an invention of mine! UT; Part one: The First Age; chapter II: Narn I Hîn Húrin; sub-chapter: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond: Quote:
and enter Doriath from Dimbar. The weckness of my idea is that not only the bridge is guarded but there are also "the fences of the littel land of Thingol beyond Sirion", Nivrim as it is called on the map. FD-SL-08: For 3 is the option to go. We will have a hard time to produce the text for that, but it is the most promissing way at least. If we in the end find out that it is really un-workable than and only than 1. must be the chioce in my view. FD-SL-11: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
FD-SL-12 FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
FD-SL-17: Okay, it might be that I have ofer interpreted here the lines in The Hobbit. If you both like to have the battle between the Dwarven-simth and the Elves we will use it. FD-SL-19: About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it. FD-SL-20: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
FD-SL-21: Here we have the same situation as before. The hunt is part of the Q30 narrative. Thus it was never droped in the fulltold narrative. It is clear if we will use the second opption given in the note ("Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders") we must skip the hunt. But were is the reason for not using the first oppoin given in the note and stick to the hunt? Beside the fact that we would be more true to Q30 which is Tolkiens latest telling of the story, we would get some additional advantages: As I see the millitary situation in Beleriand the Dwarves of Nogrod would not have been able to fight a war against the army of Doriath with out some trick. And that is also hinted at in TN and Sil77. But if the attack is unfore-seen it can be argued that they would had have a chance to gain the success they clearly had. Posted by Maedhors: Quote:
By the way: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
FD-SL-22: The detail of Mablung warding the Silmaril in Menegroth is an editorial invention of Christopher Tolkien. The question might be if Thingol does waer the Nauglamir when he is traped by the Dwarves. If not and the Nauglamir is hoarded in Menegroth we could consider Mablung as a special guard for it. But I see the scene thus: Thingols has gone to a festival hunt in his best fashion wearing the new wrought Nauglamir. Withhim are all the Lords and noble Elves of Doriath including the cheif of his thanes Mablung but not a grat army. Then he is lured out side the girdle an attacked by an superiority of Dwarves. As is everybodies duty all defend the king with their life until all are foredone with Mablung as his chief thanes dying as the last defender beside the king himself. If the hunt is used Mablungs place is by the King as he was in the original hunt for Charcharoth. FD-SL-22: But in Sil77 Melian does not go her self to Ossiriand but bides Mablung to send a message. It is right that Sil77suggests that here power was not removed willingly but I would fell much saver if we could left that point open. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-18-2004, 07:06 AM | #57 | ||||
Late Istar
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Findegil wrote:
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FD-SL-05: I'm still not altogether convinced that the evidence against the outlaws being killed on the road as in Q30 is all that compelling. But for the moment at least I think I agree with you that they should survive and reach Menegroth. FD-SL-06: Sorry that I missed that bridge in UT! Still, I don't like inventing the fact that they entered there. I would prefer to be ambiguous rather than to invent details. And Findegil is right about the problem with Nivrim. FD-SL-11: What I meant was that I don't see any reason to alter or elaborate on the story in Q30 by re-introducing Ufedhin or someone in that role. FD-SL-12, FD-SL-13: Maedhros wrote: Quote:
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Now I don't object to using the Lost Tales as a source for a more full narrative - we did that in FoG. But now it looks like in many places we have to weigh that full narrative against canonical safety. In places where the TN narrative is quite reliable, and agrees very closely with Q30, we can safely use it. But whenever there is doubt as to how precisely to implement the TN material, we ought to be able to fall back on Q30 itself. I am wary because a lot of times so far in the discussion the inclusion or exclusion of plot points from TN seems to come down to "I would like to use this story" or "if we use this, we can justify it" rather than "this story is clearly still valid". FD-SL-20: I expressed myself poorly in my last post. Findegil is right that, being that it appears in Q30, the treachery of the Elves idea is hard to just ignore. But in my reading, this alone is sufficient to account for the Dwarves' access to Doriath; and the famous note "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army . . ." should be taken as contradicting that story and sketching out a new one. Also, the treachery of Elves in Doriath seems somewhat out of place in the later - i.e. post-LotR - Silmarillion. The very fact that Tolkien considered having him "induced to go to war beyond his borders" might suggest that the hunt was abandoned. I can perhaps see the inclusion of the hunt though. The main point is that I would try to avoid inventing any details concerning how Thingol was lured outside Doriath, preferring a bald statement of that fact. FD-SL-23: Maedhros wrote: Quote:
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08-19-2004, 04:03 AM | #58 | |||
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FD-SL-05: Okay, that means we will try the outlaws im Menegroth and if that does not workout we will go back to Q30.
FD-SL-06: Agreed, the bridge is to risky and does not work due to the Nivrim problem. FD-SL-11: Okay, even if I don't see that fit the later Thingol we will not introduce any one to urge Thingol not to thrust the hoard away. FD-SL-12 & FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
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It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...}" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". The first could incooperate much more of the old plot (like the hunt and the treason of the Elves). The second would be a reduction to that statment without any further detail. And it would in my view at last creat a problem of believability since it sems impossible for me that the Elves of Doriath are defeated in a katastrophic way by the host of Nogord in an planed and open war. How we can use the note without choosing one of the opptions in a narrative is beyond my imagination. FD-SL-23 Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
This would in my view mean that when we let Melian bring the message to Beren we would however ambiguous or text meight be implicit state that Melian lost her power with the death of Thingol. I do not say that this is impossible, but I would aviod any statement in that direction even if only given implicit. For that reason I find it savvest to let her depart without a visit in Ossiriand as it si in Sil77. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-12-2004, 12:44 PM | #59 |
Wight
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Further Conclusions
Having begun this thread, I am pleased to have so much to comment on now that I've finally completed the entire HoME. I must say that with the exception of these RoD issues (and the omission of relatively finished texts found in Vol X and other defensible if unfortunate abridgements), I think C Tolkien did a fine job with S`77 in publishing the book that his father might have done and wanted to publish in the mid-1950s (apart from never finished matters like the FoG), and he is too hard on himself.
What his father could have had in mind over the succeeding 15 years in terms of a better quality and fully LoTR-congruent work---but was never going to write beyond bits & pieces---is pure speculation. My recent readings of Shippey's and Clyde Kilby's books lead me to believe that JRRT, besides being overwhelmed by fundamental questions of adaptation, was not really interested, much less motivated, in concluding his work on earlier Ages. In short, I wonder about the point and propriety of the New, Revised Silmarillion. Nevertheless: 1. Húrin had a following. Unless I'm forgetting much from Turambar and The Foalókë; I'm not sure of what is written about the intrigue and debates among the followers as it might relate to their membership as indicated in “Wanderings,” which suggests that the appellation of ‘outlaws’ is unfair; they were homeless and sometimes misguided, but still decent Men, mainly of the 2nd and 3rd Houses, when Beleriand was devoid of "laws." 2. Mîm's guarding the treasure of Nargothrond is a critical element of the Legendarium. It can merely be stated that he was slain, with a concluding comment that "some say it was done contrary to Húrin's wishes, others that Húrin did it himself out of vengeance for the wrongs against his kin." Both are believable, but the latter has greater credence in light of "Wanderings". 3. It seems an obvious device that the treasure and those that handle it are cursed, and it is reasonable that (most of) Húrin's men might have later suffered madness, cruel fates and so forth, whether they kept or not any trinket or portion, given not only the power that Mîm might have possessed as the last of his kind, but also the fact that it was unredeemed Dragon-gold, already imbued with so much treachery and woe. 4. To say that they transported it to Doriath and not to Menegroth, and that Húrin's following (for the most part) did not enter Doriath, but that (all/most/large part of) the treasure was delivered over to the March Wardens at Húrin's command and transported by those Elves to Menegroth, combines elements of both traditions, and nicely avoids the awkwardness of conflict between his followers and the Elves. 5. Húrin, of course, presents the treasure in mockery to Thingol. Though apparently an invention of C Tolkien, the fact that the Melian could and would lift the spell and deceptions of Morgoth seems highly plausible, and it is the one (presumed) invention that I might retain, at least in the sense “that by some reports, Húrin ...". 6. After that, Húrin is only known to have left Doriath, and he was never heard from again. It is not even reported if he rejoined his followers, "but it is said….” 7. That Thingol became unwise and greedy in keeping the gold and having the Silmaril fitted to the Nauglamír, against counsel of Melian, is perfectly reasonable: his arrogance is still part of the later tradition, the treasure is cursed, and his own mind afflicted by grief, regrets and anger. No special device or character seems necessary. 8. The Dwarves naturally lust after the accursed treasure, and in being exposed directly to a Silmaril (regardless of whether they are already at or summoned to Menegroth) they can't help but to be seduced by its glory, and like Thingol, fall under the Doom of Mandos---the underlying thread of destiny in the Beleriandic stories. 9. Upon being met with their demands and seeing their desire for the Silmaril, Thingol becomes enraged in ways analogous to Fëanor, and has them forcibly expelled from Doriath without even their customary recompense for smithy-work. 10. I agree that the action should be limited to the Dwarves of Nogrod. The Dwarves of Belegost are regularly depicted as nobler. In view of what is said in The Shibboleth of Fëanor about the Great Dwarves’ attitude towards the petty-dwarves, Mîm’s murder can hardly be retained as a motivating factor or even a disingenuous excuse. (Lastly, although the passage in The Hobbit [“Flies and Spiders”] is arguably directed at these First Age events, I’ve often felt that it refers just as well to another conflict more proximate to Thranduil’s realm and more recent than 6,000 years, in that the “elf-king” in question is Thranduil [or maybe Oropher], with the noninvolvement of “Thorin’s family” being explained by the Woodland Realm having been in contact with the next of the seven Dwarven folk to the east, at a time when Moria’s commercial dominance across Rhovanion had ebbed) 11. Even if JRRT struggled with the question, the invincibility of the Girdle of Melian is not necessarily absolute. We see the Sindar still needing to exert considerable effort to defend their frontier, and there are secret gates and pathways into the ‘hidden realm’ that certain Elves could have helped one through, even if Thingol/Melian would have been more or less aware of it. (Thingol is also somewhat responsible for the Girdle, and his capacities may be failing) 12. Likewise, I also question the premise that all of the Doriathrim are above reproach. It seems perfectly acceptable given the influences of curses, avarice and Morgoth's espionage, that some became corrupted or confused, and that betrayal (once again) reared its ugly head, even among Thingol's people, consistent with the tradition that JRRT never actually abandoned. Some may even have been Noldorin Avari or otherwise "Dwarf-friends" like Eol, and/or inhabitants of the borderland of Arthórien beyond Aros. 13. In any event, the Nogrodrim need only attempt (however vainly) to attack Doriath; thusly is Thingol ‘lured’ to the Marches to repulse/punish them. Then the challenge is how with the Girdle intact are the Dwarves able to lay low not only the tallest of the Eldar, but one who is also described as the greatest next to Fëanor. Again, I might combine sketchy traditions (to paraphrase): ‘some say in his confidence and fury that Thingol underestimated the resolve and tenacity of the Dwarves in battle, engaging them with too little force well beyond the confines of Doriath, while others claim in those dark and wicked days that treachery and the lies of Morgoth had entered even into Doriath, so that Thingol and his company were ambushed by Dwarves, who had penetrated parts of the Girdle with the help of greedy Elves ensnared by the Treasure of Nargothrond, or resembling Eol in having long trafficked with the Dwarf kingdoms, and to whom had been promised great reward. What is certain is that Thingol fell, and Mablung beside him, an unfathomable blow to the defenders of Doriath.’ 14. To me it seems perfectly appropriate that Melian would have been immediately aware when Thingol’s fea departed from Middle-Earth, and that she and her powers would have rapidly fled, as well. Not only do we see limitations on what Maiars like Olórin or Iarwain Ben-adar are supposed to do in Middle-Earth, but also her existence and authority in Doriath was entirely bound up in her Union with Thingol. Break that Union within Endor, and she has hardly any business being there in a material way. So, while it might be nice for her to visit Lúthien or to have waited on Dior’s taking the throne, I find those storylines at best awkward and unnecessary, and her transporting the Nauglamír untenable in the later traditions (even though it must still get to Beren & Lúthien somehow). Finally, she has to be totally overcome by grief. 15. Therefore, to say that she abandoned her people is unfair. Aside from her obvious and overwhelming grief and the probable passing of her earthly authority to maintain the Girdle, they were her people only by the sacred grace of her marriage to Thingol. I’d also be concerned about exaggerating any wanton destruction or ravaging by the Dwarves as a holdover from the very early tradition of Dwarves as an evilly inclined race. With Thingol’s forces in apparent disarray, the Nogrodrim would have been concerned only with raiding the treasury, which might have been defended (even if not by Mablung). 16. I agree that word of these events should non-specifically reach the Laiquendi, as well as Beren and Lúthien. Tolkien may have wanted to keep Beren hands clean of further blood, but for him to avenge the killing of his father-in-law, and the Green-elves, their ultimate lord, is entirely proper. So, I’m happy to see that the role of Celegorm, Caranthir and/or Curufin is rejected, especially as it would make untenable the alliance of Moria and the fëanorian Elven-smiths in the Second Age. 17. The battle, while significant, need not be seen as a major one. The Dwarves ought to be very much reduced in number, and the Green-elves have the element of surprise as the Dwarves struggle up the eastern bank of Gelion, even as they are lightly armed and of modest size, while nevertheless led by Beren (along with Dior?). Otherwise, as much as possible can be inserted from The Nauglafring, with the Treasure being buried under the Ascar by Beren, and the Ents finishing off the routed Dwarves, as nicely devised by C Tolkien in S`77. Finally, please note that the above points are not suggested for actual insertion into any text, but rather as arguments for choosing one plot option or another. They might only be used as a suggestion, rumor or allusions in the flow of the text (even in the form of a footnote) where some sort of explanation or justification for events was found to be indispensable for the reader's sake.
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10-10-2004, 04:30 AM | #60 | |
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Let's try to come back into that chapter by answering (and ordering) Man of the World's post. First I would like to comment in short to the observation
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Now to the points form Man of the World: FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still. FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death. FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing. FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely. FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely. FD-SL-10 / Note 6: Yes, such a device might be in order for the later fate of the outlaws, but I don't think it will be told from Húrins point of view. FD-SL-11 / Note 7: I already gave in concerning this point. But if we come to the text we will discuss if we can use Melains advise to through the treasure into Esgalduin at this point or not, and I think we can not if we have not counterpart for the temptation of Thingol. FD-SL-12 / Note 8: I think we all agree here with Man of the World. FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult. FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm. FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!" FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline. FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project. FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view. FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves. FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections. FD-SL-24 to FD-SL-27 / Note 17: It seems we all agree her. Originally I would have liked to continue now with the discussion of the points in the storyline were Maedhros, Aiwendil and I disagree. But my time for today is running out and I had not have the time to reread all the posts from #49 onward. Also I was the last to make some comments in post #58 thus I could have added not much (I think). The agruments raised in that post at least still stand unanswered. If I get some time for it in the near future I will try to work out the basic-text from which to start with addition mention in post #58 (with variants for the points of the storyline were we did not jet find an agreement). Respectfully Findegil |
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10-10-2004, 10:11 PM | #61 | |||
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The Girdle is in place and somehow Thingol is lured outside of it and is killed. How does Melian notices that Thingol is dead? I think that it is safe to assume that the both of them are linked in some way that would allow Melian to know wether or not his hröa is destroyed or not. Is the Girdle at this time automatically removed or do we need for Melian to leave for it to be gone? 1. If she would need to leave in order for the Girdle to be removed, why not warn the Elves of Menegroth about the slaying of their king in order to prevent an attack, surely they would all be aware of the dispute between them and the Dwarves of Nogrod. This would surely in some way lessen the surprise attack that Findegil posted above that seemed essential to their success. 2. If she was powerless to retain the Girdle, then the surprise element would indeed be in there and we would have no problem with her going to Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien as she does in the Tale and the Q30. Consider option 1 for a moment, if she still has the power to retain the Girdle, and she chooses to depart, why then can't she go to Ossiriand and warn Beren and Lúthien? To speak for the last time to her daughter and warned her about what happened in there? Does Melian has to be physically in Doriath in order for the Girdle to work? Consider option 2, if she is powerless over the Girdle, there is no reason then for her not to go and warn Beren and Lúthien about what just happened. My reason for wanting Melian to go to Ossiriand is that if we do not make the assumption that when Thingol was killed, Melian lost her powers over the Girdle, then in our text it would mean that Melian walked out on Menegroth, in a moment of great need, and I don't think that a great queen like she, would do that. To me it would diminish her character in a way that seems not right to me. Of course, we also have the possiblity to assume that when JRRT says that Melian departs, it doesn't mean exactly that she must go to Valinor, but she could have make a stop in Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien first. Quote:
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10-11-2004, 03:40 AM | #62 | |||
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Going back to front:
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In addition I don't see why she would not warn the people of Doriath as you suggest in your option 1. If a message was send to Beren and Lúthien by some one else than Melian than the Elves of Doriath would have had a warning. The Elves were without a leader (especially if we take the hunt, with many of the Lords slain beside Thingol) and in addition the march-wardens of the north that had as jet fought a war out of a effective protection would now need to protect the realm by their own strength. In such a situation a warning immediately before the attack would not help much. It would lessen the surprise but not so much as to save the day for the Elves. (If Thingol had planed a war against the Dwarves, thinks would have been otherwise.) Respectfully Findegil |
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10-26-2004, 04:11 PM | #63 | |
Late Istar
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Findegil wrote:
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I agree, though, that in either case Melian could still warn Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand before departing. About Man of the Wold's points: Note 1 - Agree with Findegil; "outlaw" is fine. Note 2 - I'm still a bit torn about Mim's death. It is said in the extension of GA that preceded "Wanderings" that "Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mim the petty-dwarf". Of course that could simply be compression. I suppose I still lean toward the Q30 version, though I can't say for sure that I won't change my mind. Note 3 - The fate of the outlaws still strikes me as the most difficult point in the chapter, and I can think of nothing to add to what has already been said about it. Note 4 - I'm not sure that Man of the Wold's suggestion "ruins the gesture" the way the Q30 version does. But there is no source for it. Also, it appears to be completely unnecessary, as the outlaws would still have to be kept alive up to that point. Note 5 - I don't think the healing by Melian can be justified in our text at all. Note 6 - Nothing to add here. Note 7 - I agree with Man of the Wold here; Thingol's desire for the gold seems fine to me. Note 8 - Again agreement. Note 9 - I think that, if all else fails, we can always fall back on the single sentence of Q30 for the quarrel, so the story point definitely stands. Note 10 - Certainly the Dwarves of Belegost play no part. As for Mim's death - I don't see it necessarily as unusable even as a disingenuous excuse. Note 11 - I actually half agree with Man of the Wold here. I don't think that the power of the Girdle was necessarily absolute. Perhaps it could have been overcome by treachery. But I think that in our version it must be the case that it was not in fact overcome by treachery. The note that Findegil mentions makes that plain. Note 12 - I think it's possible for some of the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. But, again, I don't think that it's useable in our version. Note 13 - I agree with Findegil - we cannot use a version like that. Notes 14, 15 and 16 - I addressed these points briefly above and can think of nothing to add. Is there still a disagreement between Findegil and Maedhros here? Note 17 - Agree. |
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11-21-2004, 07:27 PM | #64 |
The Kinslayer
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Findegil, I thought that you were going to make a new draft for us to use in this chapter using the Chapter 14 referece of the Quenta.
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11-23-2004, 06:49 AM | #65 | ||||
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Sorry for the long delay, but at first I thought it would be good to wait until the discussion had cleared even the last open points and then the task was driven by other things from my mind.
So now here we go: Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30) Quote:
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The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings. In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end. Respectfully Findegil |
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11-23-2004, 10:07 PM | #66 | |||
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Great work Findegil, as of yet, I have not been able to read it in great detail but it looks very good for now.
I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta. I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc. Quote:
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11-24-2004, 12:22 PM | #67 | |||||
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Posted by Maedhros:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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11-24-2004, 09:06 PM | #68 | |
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FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Fëanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the {seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now Maedhros, whom Morgoth maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor and to [Amrod, and to Celegorm, and to [Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegorm] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Morgoth nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegorm], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’> <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrain{s}[ed] his brethren{[.]} [and]><TN {T}[t]hus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone{,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>}[.] <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] {the brethren}[them][,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY [the] east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[and there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].> <TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Fëanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the grey Elves { and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] {the maimed,} nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain[ed] their lord>[.] FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth and her company] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea. I have only added a few such things that are in bold. We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive. I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point. In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. Celegorm had to be deleted because he was already killed by Dior. All of the other changes are very minor in nature, like the additions of prepositions and past tense of certain verbs. There is this also: <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].> I altered the order of that parragraph just because I think that it reads better this way. Quote:
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11-25-2004, 02:49 AM | #69 | |||||
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The shifting of the §§ concerned with Elured and Elurin is okay for me, even when I consider it as not really needed. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-26-2004, 10:32 AM | #70 | |
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About the hunt: I'm afraid that the more I think about the "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army" note, the more I'm inclined to view it as directly contradicting the story of the hunt. It has it that Thingol was "lured" outside or "induced to go to war". What need then for a hunt? Moreover, if the hunt had not been rejected, what need for Thingol to be lured or induced to battle outside the Girdle? The hunt was clearly not something Tolkien had in mind any longer. If we re-introduced it, it seems to me, it would essentially be fan-fiction.
Is there any real argument that favors the hunt, aside from mere personal taste? If so, of course, I could perhaps be lured or induced to change my mind. Something like Findegil's FD-SL-20d could work for me, though as it stands the phrasing is a bit awkward. But I'm confident it could be fixed. It seems that our "storyline" is rapidly turning into a full text at some points! It's of course not really a storyline point, but like Findegil I miss the purpose of: Quote:
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11-27-2004, 06:58 PM | #71 | ||
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As I feared my version d would bring no good for my own point of view. But alas I have let it slip out and we must all know what we are talking about.
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In the older versions the Dwarves had already crossed the girdle by help of treacherous Elves. The function of the hunt was to provide an opportunity for the Dwarves to surprise Thingol with only a small company. I don't plan to change the function of the hunt, as to make it the way by which the girdle was overcome. I rather would like to use the hunt as an opportunity, for the Dwarves to lure Thingol more easily out of the girdle, since he is already near the borders. It would then in addition have old function to reduce Thingols forces involved in the conflict. If the girdle should be any protection for Thingol he had to be inside for ever. Thus I think that the tarditional hunt in memory of the wolfhunt was held inside Doriath and the girdle. Since the effect of the girdle had changed, it could not be a wolfhunt - no wolf would be able to cross the girdle, if he was not carrying a Silmaril, which would not happen agian. Thus the hunt in memorian of Beren would be on other wild animals. It would not led Thingol outside the girdle but nearer to the border (Menegroth is nearly in the center of Doriath). Thus the hunt would be a chance for the Dwarves to provocate some rush aktion leding Thingol outside the protection of the girdle with only a small force around him. If we don't use the hunt, it is much harder for me to see Thingol lured outside or worst going to war beyond the borders with only company small enough to be overcome by the Dwarves easy enough so that they could ransack Menegroth in the same ride. After explaining this, I will go on to explain why I would like to have the treacherous Elves: in TN they were the way to bring the girdle down, but the girdle was in anyway no real protection. These function will be no longer possible. But if (and only if) the hunt is used by the Dwarves for provocing Thingol at this opportunity, than they did need very exact information about the hunt: where exactly and at which time was it lunched. In TN Narsec is recorded to bring exactly that information to Naugladur which he used for his planes. But Nasec is not named as leading the Dwarves through the girdle. These was done by some other treacherous elves. Thus if the hunt is uesd I would like to includ Narsecs role but nothing more. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-29-2004, 07:45 PM | #72 | |||
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As the characters have evolved as time passed, we know now that the Dwarves in Nogrod had a long tradition with the Elves of Menegroth. Is it not possible that those dwarves could have know about the traditions of the Hunt (where it took place and when) because of their interaction with them. I would not want to see treacherous elves if we can avoid it. Quote:
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12-01-2004, 09:31 PM | #73 |
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I must say that I am still unsure and have not yet made up my mind concerning the hunt. But the fact that ToY as written simply has the Dwarves invading Doriath, sacking Menegroth, and killing Thingol suggests to me that the whole of the story at this point was changed from Q30. In other words, the ToY version seems to me to contradict the story of the treacherous Elves and Thingol's hunt. Now it's true that the ToY story had the critical flaw that it ignored the Girdle of Melian, and this led Tolkien to the story projected in the note. But I don't see the note as necessarily representing a reversion to the elements of Thingol's hunt and the treacherous Elves.
However, that line of reasoning isn't entirely clear-cut since it depends on the truth of the proposition that ToY contradicts Q30, which is, I suppose, an unclear point. I suppose the maint point is that, to me anyway, it feels canonically safer not to mention the hunt or the treacherous Elves. Whether that safety is worth dropping those elements is unclear to me. Certainly, though, the idea that the treacherous Elves aided the Dwarves in luring Thingol outside the border is to some degree fan-fictional. For the function of the treacherous Elves in Q30 was to allow Dwarves in. To keep them and change their function entirely seems too much of a liberty to me. Indeed - one wonders why in such a story the Elves could not have done what they did in Q30 and simply let the Dwarves through the Girdle. It seems to me far simpler (and as a result, better, at least in the one point) to have Thingol simply hear of the Dwarves' hostile intent and ride forth to war beyond the borders. That follows the note with minimal elaboration. Also, whether Thingol is "lured or induced" from Menegroth or from his hunt seems quite irrelevant with regard to its believability - Thingol is equally foolish for stepping outside the Girdle in either case. |
12-02-2004, 04:39 AM | #74 | |||
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Aha Aiwendil, I think I begin to undestand your point of view now a bit better.
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TN -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included S -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included Q30-> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included AB1 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included AB2 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included TY -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are EXEcluded Thus the hunt was claerly part of the story when Ab1 and Ab2 where written. These Annals were much fuller than then TY (they were been accompanied by Tale of the Year versions, which we don't have). It seems wrong to me, to execlud the hunt, only because it isn't metioned in TY which Tolkien composed clearly with AB2 or the accompanying Tale of the Year version in front of him. I see now that this is clearly otherwise for the treacherous Elves. They were included in AB2 and execluded from TY. Thus it seems that Tolkien rejected them. But Maedhros did give us the way to use the hunt without them: Quote:
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In view of the discussion, I think we are all now no longer absolutly sure about this issue. Thus I think we should find at first some common ground: - Do we all agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves withhim when he was killed? - If so, can we incooperat that into our version even if the hunt is not used? Respectfully Findegil |
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12-02-2004, 10:22 AM | #75 | ||
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I agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves and I do think that we can incorporate them in our plot.
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12-02-2004, 10:52 AM | #76 | |||
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Findegil wrote:
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I do not see the hunt as a potential way to make the story that Thingol was lured beyond the Girdle more plausible. As I said, I think it just as plausible that Thingol was lured outside in either case. For me, the decision comes down, very simply, to the question of Tolkien's intention at the time of the note to TY. But Findegil's point has made me far less sure about TY contradicting the hunt. I still have some reservations; it still seems to me somewhat safer not to include it. But since I'm ambivalent and the two of you are clearly for the hunt, we might as well adopt it. The treacherous Elves, though, I'm still rather inclined to drop. |
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12-02-2004, 11:33 AM | #77 | ||||
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Going back a bit:
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12-02-2004, 08:17 PM | #78 | ||||||
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The way that I see it is that if we can use the hunt and that it might help us make the transition towards having the opportunity to having Thingol killed by the dwarves then we should do it. Quote:
From The War of the Jewels: Of Maeglin Quote:
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Having looked at Of Maeglin, I noticed another name that needs to be changed: RD-38 Gelion to Duin Dhaer. Quote:
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I wonder, do we have any other major point of conflict with the storyline?
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-03-2004, 05:55 AM | #79 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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RD-21 Sarnathrod & Sarn Athrad to Harathrad Agreed RD-22 Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II. The blue lamps of the Noldor were discribed later when Beleg meets Gwindor and when Tour meets Arminas and Gelmir. Thus "Lamp of Eldamar" which is an proper update for "Lamp of Faëry" would be missleding in my view. But I am not sure if the phrase is still part of the (pruposed) text. Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change. RD-38 Agreed. (But it seems I have missed RD-37.) Respectfully Findegil |
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12-03-2004, 01:00 PM | #80 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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Regarding RD-22
Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II. From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Nauglafring Quote:
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Aiwendil, regarding this change: Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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