Evil things

what is evil? whose to say what is evil and what is not? is it evil to just be who you were born to be? look at gollum. before he found the ring he wasn't evil, he was malicious, but not evil. so are the maira evil?

[drigel]

Thank you heren for all the content!!

Now back to the subject. Could not the sprirts that Morgoth used to imprison or house in bodies in the 1st age be that of lesser maia, who's bodies were destroyed previously?

Could not a measure of a maia's strength or greatness be the ability to take form after his or hers body had been destroyed in battle?

[Nirvana II]

do Maiar absolutely HAVE to go back to Valinor when they die??????Even the Evil Maiar

[HerenIstarion]

I'd say they absolutely want to go to Valinor, but are not allowed to (cases - Sauron and Saruman after death, when their shapes are moving West, but are dissolved by the breeze)

[Nirvana II]

breezes of Manwe?

they had to go back to Valinor because they had to face the judgement of Manwe. i read it in either the Silm. or Unfinished Tales and i dont have the book with me so it might not be all the way right, but i do remember that they have to be judged



[Edited by moderator to remove the image - it was too large and not necessary for the discussion.]

[HerenIstarion]

they had to go back to Valinor because they had to face the judgement of Manwe.

that'd be elves. And that'd be Mandos. But even elves do not have to go to Mandos, but are going in answer to summons, though they are free to refuse and remain in ME. Not that such a refusal is not a sign of some taint of the spirit, but, nevertheless, they are free to refuse

Maiar, on the other hand, are not bound by such a summoning. Since they entered the world as part of host of the Ainur to become Valar, i.e., Powers Of The World, they are equally bound by World's history (the condition when they are allowed to enter it on terms of remaining inside it till its end). Therefore (apart from Morgoth, who was forcibly thrust out), any Maia, whose incarnate (and for becoming premanently incarnate, see One hand tied behind their backs ) body is destroyed, does not go but is left within the boundaries of the world. Besides:

Letters, L200

It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book

As a consequence, you may think of Sauron after the destruction as of ghost of a kind (and Saruman equally, for he's truly incarnate also)

Both may wish to return, but are not allowed to (hence breeze dissolving their shapes)

On the other hand, Gandalf's spirit, who remained faithfull, would go to Valinor of his own free will and be accepted. The fact he is granted with the second chance is the grace of Eru. See Wielding the Flame of Anor

[drigel]

So, any of those lesser (evil) Maias whose corporal bodies were destroyed could be then housed again, in another body by a Morgoth type? Or once the body was destroyed, was this a one shot deal?

[Nirvana II]

unless they were resurrected by the Power of Manwe (Or something like that)

[HerenIstarion]

So, any of those lesser (evil) Maias whose corporal bodies were destroyed could be then housed again

Up to a point. Depends on the original power of a spirit. In Sauron's case it amounted to several rebuildings (after Huan (dubious one that, he was not completely killed), after Numenor, after Gil-Galad and Elendil)

Power of Manwe is not ever noticed in resurrecting evil Maiar

Gandalf's case is thought to be Eru's direct intervention

[Nirvana II]

im renewing the thread...Evil things are bad......

[drigel]

I agree. And it is also book related. I am still trying to figure out how Morgoth can trap spririts of Maia whose bodies were broken. Were those spirits willing? unwilling?

If unwilling, mabye thats why they were so evil? Can this be related somehow to how orcs/trolls were created? Or was that primarily a biological event???
so many questions

[HerenIstarion]

Evil things are bad

who argues...

willing re: willing. Freedom of choice issue. Yes, continuous yelding made them more subservient, and probably by the end there was no will of their own left to resist Morgoth, but it all begun with the free choice of submitting to him

[drigel]

I love this site. If I have to slack at work, Id rather be musing on JRRT

[Nirvana II]

indeed...this is how i slack at college

[drigel]

watch those grades Nirvanna lol .. although this medium is a lot healthier than my slacking tool of choice back in the college days... burp


freewill: reading the books it seems very black and white - once a maia turns evil it stays evil. But i wonder if (during this non-copreal state) if that spirit has the freewill to choose to be trapped by Morgoth. Trapped connotes to me an unwillingness.....

so... my orc hypothesis is falling short in my mind concerning the trapping of spirits. Too many to take into account. When i read the threads, it seems the conclusion on the orc creation thing is relying mainly on a physiological platform of breeding. right?

It does seem to me that if Morgoth could trap a Maia's soul, he could easily trap an elf's soul as well.... no?

[Nirvana II]

Originally Posted by drigel

watch those grades Nirvanna lol .. although this medium is a lot healthier than my slacking tool of choice back in the college days... burp


freewill: reading the books it seems very black and white - once a maia turns evil it stays evil. But i wonder if (during this non-copreal state) if that spirit has the freewill to choose to be trapped by Morgoth. Trapped connotes to me an unwillingness.....

so... my orc hypothesis is falling short in my mind concerning the trapping of spirits. Too many to take into account. When i read the threads, it seems the conclusion on the orc creation thing is relying mainly on a physiological platform of breeding. right?

It does seem to me that if Morgoth could trap a Maia's soul, he could easily trap an elf's soul as well.... no?

to the college comment:yeah...'cept im acin all my subjects.

to the free will: can't they purge themselves of baddness?????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????/

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

There are quite a few reasons why they didnt purge themselves of evil and indeed they do have free will. They are uneducated, being a thrall to Morgorth is all they have ever known they never knew what freedom was, and who would tell them it is hard to imagine a camp of orcs attentively listening to an elf standing on a soapbox talking about the glories of freedom and voting (hint hint: fan art). Orcs had also been told about the "cruelty" of Elves and, in an orcs mind what would be the more sensible thing to do fight and maybe win or give up and be tortured by Elves, considering they have been tortured and lied to all their existence by Morgoth. If they were to turn and fight for Elvendom and they lost you think Morgoth would have said "alright lads, you made a mistake but you seem okay now." , No, they would have been battered, beaten, bruised, and bashed mentally and pyschally, so the choice of an Orc is be tortured by Morgorth or fight for him gain, victory and spoils, kind of makes sense which road they choose. They have choice they just don't have the knowledge to make proper judgement.

P.S. My sincere apologies for any grammatical or spelling mistakes in my posts when you see any please tell me.

[HerenIstarion]

I believe you mix up orks and dunlandings there

[The Saucepan Man]

Here is rather a good thread, which touches on the thorny question of whether it is possible for Orcs to find redemption:

Inherent Evil

[Tharlionglin]

What about the leiutenant at the Black Gate that parleyed with Aragorn and Gandalf, the one who had Frodo and Sam's gear?

I know he is not Maier but a fallan Numenorean, but does anyone know anything else?

Did he come to ME as one of the faithful and then go bad?
Or did he turn bad in Numenor and come to ME before its destruction?
What happened to him after the War of the Ring?

I would have liked to see Gimli go em'

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Actually, the Numenoreans had set up colonies in Middle-Earth even before the Sinking of Numenor. They set up their fortress in Umbar, which is somewhere south of Gondor and Mordor, where the Haradrim lived. The Numenoreans probably mixed with the people of Harad, which have been drawn towards Sauron, and hence became Black Numenoreans...

(Gotta stop... the premises for racial discrimination is too high)

But Numenoreans aside, I am really much more interested in another group of Men which fought on the side of Evil: The Dunlendings. By all accounts, these Men are just normal men, and do not seem too evil. There was serious Bad Blood, of course, between the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings, but that was because of Land Grap. (Seriously, if Gondor was not so troubled by the East, would you think Rohan could still exist?)

Saruman deceived the Dunlendings into fighting on his side, but there was no actual account of the Dunlendings fighting alongside of Sauron. In fact, the Dunlendings were so deceived by Saruman that they thought the Rohirrim would burn them alive after they lost.

No Orcs remained alive; their bodies were uncounted. But a great many of the hillmen had given themselves up; and they were afraid, and cried for mercy.
The Men of the Mark took their weapons from them, and set them to work.
'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand; 'and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free back to your land. For you have been deluded by Saruman. Many of you have got death as the reward of your trust in him; but had you conquered, litte better would your wages have been.'
The men of Dunland were amazed; for Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.

But let's face it, Prof T did his best to assume the historian, and ascribed wicked deeds to not just the 'Men of the East and South'. Various dastardly deeds were also done, and not just by Men, but Dwarves and Elves. So I should say that the 'gift of men' is obscure, in that it dishes out freedom to every mortal man, but serves no justice.

[NightKnight]

Tharlionglin, the Mouth of Sauron was indeed a Black Numenorean. It is very unlikely though, that he would have lived through the entire Third Age, thus being over 3000 years old. He was probably born in the 30th century.

[HerenIstarion]

on Mouth, see Magic in Middle Earth

It is an old thread (in times where I was omitting a lot more spelling blunders), but worthy