Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

The main reason for PJ to make the Witch King seem more superior to Gandalf was probably to make up for the fact that Sauron himself could not be used properly for battle in the film. Therefore, another character of great power had to be used as the main source of terror and invincibility, If Gandalf was to be potrayed as more powerful than the WK, it would have made a laughing stock of the WK as the main threat from Mordor. In the book, Gandalf appears a little anxious of the might of the WK, sensing that he is close to Gandalf's power, and while I don't think the WK would defeat him, I think he could still withstand Gandalf, so the real fear of resulted from the idea of who could destroy him?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The main reason for PJ to make the Witch King seem more superior to Gandalf was probably to make up for the fact that Sauron himself could not be used properly for battle in the film. Therefore, another character of great power had to be used as the main source of terror and invincibility, If Gandalf was to be potrayed as more powerful than the WK, it would have made a laughing stock of the WK as the main threat from Mordor. In the book, Gandalf appears a little anxious of the might of the WK, sensing that he is close to Gandalf's power, and while I don't think the WK would defeat him, I think he could still withstand Gandalf, so the real fear of resulted from the idea of who could destroy him?

Think that you've hit it on the head. What could PJ do with the 'Eye' that he'd constructed? Make it glare menacingly at Gondor? It was a bit ridiculous when the Eye (of which I'd had my own imaginings about from reading the books) become the 'searchlight of Mordor.'

Anyway, as you say, if Sauron could not come to Minas Tirith, then PJ would have to use the next best thing to scare the defenders and show to the audience that there existed a threat to not only the unnamed extras but also to the Big G himself.

I guess what didn't work for me is that (as we all have read me saying many times before) is that I can't see Gandalf getting owned, and also the Witch King wasn't that scary for me. I could see how the Balrog was going to be a problem, but the Witch King on wings wasn't shown to be as menacing as he was in the books.

Maybe if PJ had added a few scenes showing how terrible WK was, then maybe I'd buy into it a bit more.

By the by, welcome to the Downs Mansun.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Think that you've hit it on the head. What could PJ do with the 'Eye' that he'd constructed? Make it glare menacingly at Gondor? It was a bit ridiculous when the Eye (of which I'd had my own imaginings about from reading the books) become the 'searchlight of Mordor.'

Anyway, as you say, if Sauron could not come to Minas Tirith, then PJ would have to use the next best thing to scare the defenders and show to the audience that there existed a threat to not only the unnamed extras but also to the Big G himself.

Yes, that's what I've been saying for the past 5 months. see my earlier post:

PPPS My eariler points on the WK being perhaps more Stronger in the film because this film needed a 'Baddie' to focus on. I feel vindicated because I've finally listened to the Directors' commentaries on the WK scenes, and they say pretty much what I implied. Because we don't see Sauron (after they made the wise decision to airbrush him out of the black gate fight scene) PJ and co decided they needed a 'baddie' to focus on, and the WK was next in line.

Have a listen to the commentaries that the director et all pretty much say this during the witch king scenes (including the scene when we see his helmet placed on his head)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Yes, that's what I've been saying for the past 5 months. see my earlier post: Have a listen to the commentaries that the director et all pretty much say this during the witch king scenes (including the scene when we see his helmet placed on his head)

I'm sure that you did, it's just that I can hardly remember yesterday; that and I think that I'm over the movies, and so may be more inclined to listen to reason .

Firstly, In the book, quite a separate debate from the film altogether, I think everyone can agree that Gandalf was the second most powerful opponent after Sauron in the Lord of the Rings, as he was quoted as being "more dangerous that anything else you would ever meet, unless you were brought before the seat of the Darklord". The WK could possibly be viewed as relatively minor when compared in terms of some of the powers that dwelt in the first and second age in ME. I wouldn't put it past Glorfindel and the alike to smite him in single combat, nevermind Gandalf, even if the WK tested them to the limits. His strongest weapon really was fear, and his strength of will over others, but they were of no use against these two.

Also, referring more to the film, just because there was a prophecy that no living man would kill the WK, that does not mean nobody had the power to destroy him. It was just a comment to add hype to his character, being as Sauron would play so little a part in LOTR. We are reminded that there exists other threats from Mordor to ME than just Sauron himself, so it worked well to make the WK a little like how Sauron was shown as being mighty in the beginning of the FOTR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."


Tolkien establishes a difference between Denethor's definition of "Steward", and Gandalf's definition of "steward." Notice the use of capitilized, uncapitilized.

There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master.

I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?



The above post clearly implies that Gandalf was actually a much more powerful opponent than the WK, but was forbidden by Eru to reveal his true power against the enemy, as that was not the reason Eru sent the Istari to ME. Thats why Tolkein decided not to allow a direct battle between him and the WK. I think that the WK (and almost everybody in ME for tht matter) was not aware of the true nature of Gandalf, hence his abusive curses as the two confronted each other.

The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so. Gandalf might have been anxious to face the WK, but that was probably because the WK was more than a match for anybody else in Gondor, and could sway the outcome of the fate of ME during the siege of Gondor, unless Gandalf confronted him, and also of the folly of Denethor. Gonder was vulnerable even with the aid of Rohan.

PJ did not work with this idea as it would not suffice in the film to draw the audience.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so

At the expense of repeating myself. WHY?

Did David beat Goliath?

Did a hobbit and a woman beat the Witch King?

Does a favourite win every horse race?

What a boring place the world would be if only the strongest won every battle.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

Did David beat Goliath?

No, God beat Goliath.

Did a hobbit and a woman beat the Witch King?

No, the Dagger of Westernesse beat the Witch-King.

Does a favourite win every horse race?

The difference between one horse and another is nothing like the difference between a Man and one of the more powerful Maiar.

What a boring place the world would be if only the strongest won every battle.

We're not talking about our world, we're talking about a world where there are different tiers of spiritual puissance among physical beings. The Witch-King could only have defeated Gandalf if Gandalf had allowed it through a willful restraint of power, as he did in his duel with the Balrog.

Because Gandalf is not an ordinary creature like the others you mentioned, including the WK. He is an angelic spirit. Only a similar being could destroy him. There is no weapon, even that of the one used by Merry to defeat the WK, that could harm Gandalf.

Argonath must be pleased about how many posts and views his thread has had!

[Essex]

All your points re gandalf definately being able to defeat the Witch King are based on one thing:

CONJECTURE


Was Sauron the greatest, strongest 'being' on Middle-earth - Perhaps. Was he beaten by a pair of Hobbits? Yes.

As has been metioned before on this thread, Gandalf was not 'allowed' to use his great power in the use force on Middle-earth. If he HAD been allowed to, why not storm the Tower himself?

I find it amusing that so many people have a 100% certainty that Gandalf would have beaten the Witch King in a fight. I am saying that it is NOT certain.

Show me proof that Gandalf would definately defeat the Witch King. You can't.

PS - the sword of westernesse WAS instrumental in defeating the Witch King, but it did not kill him alone. The fatal blow was delivered by Eowyn, after Merry had 'unknit' the spell holding the WK's sinews together. Don't detract from the hobbit and maiden's heroism by saying a sword alone killed the witch king.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

Because when Gandalf and Pippin fall off Shadowfax the first time it seems to me that Gandalf is more worried for Pippin then the witch King at that moment. I could be wrong though.

Don't see how falling off a horse proves that you care for someone...

My own opinion about the scene: it is but one of all the countless deviations from the original. 'Nuff said.

[sassyfriend]

Just curious dosen't Gandalf try to hide Pippin when they fall off?

[Gandalf_UK]

Originally Posted by Argonath

Upon the completion of the Return of the King Special Extended Edition, one scene stuck out like a sore thumb to me. That scene being the dramatic confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King.

To summarize for those who have not seen it:
The siege of Gondor is well underway; Grond has already taken down the Gates of Minas Tirith. Gandalf and Pippin, atop Shadowfax, are racing through the city to reach Faramir. Suddenly the Witch King appears seated on a fell beast. Gandalf and Pippin are thrown down, and the Nazgul raises his fiery sword; shattering Gandalf's staff. The horn of the Rohirrim is heard, and the Nazgul flies off.

I could not agree more. I think this was one of two scenes that I was really looking forward to from my interpretation on the book.

I feel that PJ really made Gandalf look weak in this scene, As noted in the original post i read it that they were both about to have an almighty battle and were squaring up to one another when the horn or Rohan was heard and then the Witch King flies off.

When Gandalf comes back as a White Wizard I thought that he would be more powerful, and an even match for the witch king. Unfortuantely he was portrayed a lot weaker than my interpretation of the character.

Gandalf uses more of his Power against the Balrog and in the 1st Hobbit film!!!!!!