Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I wouldn't read into it.

Too late for that really, seeing as I did read into it and helped the Baddies as a result.

Originally Posted by Mnem

I, for one, shall laugh if the whole VIP show thing was wholly unintentional.

I, as well.

[Isabellkya]

It is quite interesting that the tune being sung toDay; is muchmuch different than yesterDay/ Even different compared to the beginning of toDay.

Crunch the numbers. Crunch crunch, crunch them again.

Balance. Sometimes balancing a game isn't easy. It gets more complicated, the more roles added to the game. So every possible scenario has to be worked out in the head before hand. There are points. Yes, the Gifteds couldn't be replaced until they'd all died. Assuming of course, everything that Brin has said is correct - which I don't believe on a couple of points. So as long as the WQ was alive, she could turn out Gifted's. Which kind of nulls the Black Piece kills at Night. They might as well of tossed a coin; rather that make strategic kills.

Another note. Mnemosyne. Why so eager to follow Brin around toDay? Seems quite odd, especially compared to what you said earlier.

No one knows anything. There are no "known" roles what so ever at this point in the game.

All that a non-working scry would mean is that the player already has a special role. If she had scried Noggie Night 1 it would have told her absolutely nothing.

Oh! But earlier toDay, you were saying something COMPLETELY different!
Why the change? In this case, the rules for this power - are the same for everyone it applies to. You can't choose the meaning of it differing on the player you are talking about it in context with.

In terms of the Voting Power. In my opinion, clauses should have been made to the role - in the event that the WQ lived a long time.
Because, such as a situation now; if the WQ was able to give herself the extra voting power; then there would be no way for th black pieces to win.


X'd since #1079

[Isabellkya]

Then again, I doubt the White pieces could win either.
I'm thinking it will end in a draw.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Then again, I doubt the White pieces could win either.
I'm thinking it will end in a draw.

How could neither White or Black win?

Oh wait, I know how. It seems there's no point in even trying anymore. Because in the end, Shasta's just gonna award the win to the Grey Team. I can see it now:

"Game over.

Black Queen loses.

Black Team loses.

Black Pawn loses.

White Team loses.

Mithalwen wins."

Darn that Grey Queen!

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Oh! But earlier toDay, you were saying something COMPLETELY different!
Why the change? In this case, the rules for this power - are the same for everyone it applies to. You can't choose the meaning of it differing on the player you are talking about it in context with.

Not that it's worth my time, but could you give me my earlier, contradictory quote? Honestly, I'm quite sick, and I've gotten things wrong with my number crunches in the past. So I may have changed my mind upon realizing the rules better.

As for why I'm "following Brin around," I think that should be quite obvious: I trust her. She had obviously clued into sally's Hunterness before anyone who didn't know about this during the Night could have known. And she explains Noggie's death. We don't know everything? Well, if there's anything else we haven't learned those players have taken their secrets with them to their grave.

I don't know why you're going after me, but it's not going to work. If you think that somehow through a single or double-bluff you can get phantom or wilwa (whichever is innocent) to suspect me to the point that they'll vote me over you or Rikae you have another think coming.

[Mithalwen]

I like that....

*giggles*

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

How could neither White or Black win?

Oh wait, I know how. It seems there's no point in even trying anymore. Because in the end, Shasta's just gonna award the win to the Grey Team. I can see it now:

"Game over.

Black Queen loses.

Black Team loses.

Black Pawn loses.

White Team loses.

Mithalwen wins."

Darn that Grey Queen!

Well, there's no use pretending any longer.

I am the Grey Pawn; I've secretly been in cahoots with Mith all game. As soon as I set off this reality bomb it'll kill off all of us but her and then the moral victory shall be mine.

[Brinniel]

Btw, I do read too much into things because in the past I did not read into them enough. So really, I don't know what to think.

Right now my gut says Rikae and Izzy are both wolves. But I'm not making a decision yet. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Isabellkya]

Actually, I'm not going after you in some conspiracy or trickery to get others to vote for you.
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies.

If you crunch the numbers, a draw is the most likely outcome.

[the phantom]

By the way, what do you make of this?

Originally Posted by Shasta

"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.

Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

Am I reading into the narrative too much, and it was merely supposed to mean that Sauron was cheating? If it does mean something, we must take it into consideration when we're deciding which individual to vote for today.

Brin? You're the one who ultimately has to make the call. Who do you think is the safest kill?

I have to get ready for service now, and so possibly I won't be around again until the last couple hours before the deadline.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

By the way, what do you make of this?

Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

Am I reading into the narrative too much, and it was merely supposed to mean that Sauron was cheating? If it does mean something, we must take it into consideration when we're deciding which individual to vote for today.

Brin? You're the one who ultimately has to make the call. Who do you think is the safest kill?

I have to get ready for service now, and so possibly I won't be around again until the last couple hours before the deadline.

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...

Although if that were the case, why would Rikae act the way in which she acted?

(Unless she's the cobbler.)

Which would make me prefer to get Rikae toDay, personally.

[Mnemosyne]

Or unless Rikae was just trying to make us all overconfident or something.

Ouch, my brain.

I'm going to need to relax for a bit if I'm to have the energy to keep up with this game and reality. Ta-ta for now!

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mnem

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...

Although if that were the case, why would Rikae act the way in which she acted?

(Unless she's the cobbler.)

Which would make me prefer to get Rikae toDay, personally.

Hmm... Okay, forgive me for being slightly self-centered here, but do you think it is possible that Rikae truly did/does believe I am the Cobbler, and because of that she revealed herself as the Bishop in hopes that I would then take my cue from that and support an Izzy lynch over a Rikae lynch, since then Izzy would be the one with the hunting power?

But of course that would assume that she's assuming that I would even come up with the idea of the Knight being changed to a Hunter. Has she or Izzy left any clues to help lead a Cobbler to this conclusion, and they assumed Cobbler-Phantom would pick up on them?

I would do a quick skim-through to check, but I really must be going.

See everyone a couple hours before the deadline or so.

[Mnemosyne]

Possible, maybe, but I get the feeling that once again we're grasping at straws.

And that's all that's happened since the last time I checked... man, endgame is quiet!

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Shasta
"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.

I think this is merely referring to the fact that the Black Queen is the one that killed the Black Rook. Though I suppose the underlined part really doesn't make sense....unless maybe since that happened Fea was aloud to be in contact with the other two black pieces?? Maybe they still got their 2 kills but they were aloud to work together instead? So in a way she'd be taking Lariren's (the Rook's) place.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Shasta

"Oh, here, let me do it," Sauron snarled as Gandalf moved to take it. He snatched up one of his own pieces and knocked his own rook off the board. Gandalf didn't notice that he left the piece in place of the rook, as he was busy watching Sauron's other hand move a piece and knock a White Bishop off the other side of the board.

Originally Posted by tp

Does that mean that either the Black Knight or Bishop now has the ability to hunt (took the Rook's place)? If so, then killing a WW today might lead to Brin going down too, and then we'll be toast the next day if the WW succeeds in not killing the Cobbler.

I'm not sure what it means. But I don't think Shasta would have the wolves switch roles unless it was hinted somewhere in the rules. The only surprises in this game occurred to my role, which makes sense because it is a secret role. And if there was another secret role, I would think we'd be told. Though I suppose I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Mnemo

Frack, this added to Izzy's "you still don't know all of what's going on neener neener" does not make me feel good...

If anything, these two may be trying to get us to think that there's more going on than it seems. So I wouldn't listen to anything they say.

Right now I'm leaning towards voting Rikae, but I haven't decided just yet. Let me eat my dinner first.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

But I don't think Shasta would have the wolves switch roles unless it was hinted somewhere in the rules.

I would agree with that if not for the fact that there was also nothing in the rules about the possibility of changing roles/gifted creation. The pieces were listed, but when it came down to it there were two White Rooks. Therefore I would not be surprised if there was some sort of method for the Black side to add to their flock. If the WQ can turn a White Pawn into royalty, perhaps the BQ could change the Black Pawn? It seems fair (except for that it'd be near impossible to find a lone Black Pawn unless xe was being a bit too obvious). But perhaps the WWs had that ability as well?

Anyway, due to Sally, we can obviously see that the rules are not the end all be all for determining limitations. The reason I am so terribly paranoid at this point is the fact that you seem to be quite powerful, and considering the two evil teams were in competition with each other, surely they would've been given a couple tricks up their sleeve to ensure even footing.

Though as you said, they could've dreamed/killed you and then we'd be screwed, so perhaps there is nothing special lurking at all.

Originally Posted by Brin

Right now I'm leaning towards voting Rikae, but I haven't decided just yet. Let me eat my dinner first.

That is the direction I would go as well (I think she is the most likely WW of the two). But then if Izzy is the Cobbler we're obviously in trouble tomorrow. The question is when do you wish to take the biggest risk, today or tomorrow? And which of the two do you really feel is the biggest gamble? Personally I would say Izzy (hence my desire to take care of Rikae first- that way if we're wrong the next day we at least killed all but one, and I'd feel slightly better about my performance).

I don't feel good though about the fact that we are essentially being allowed to go in this direction with little fight (by "this direction" I mean lynch one of those two and then the other). Besides Rikae's request that Cobbler-Phantom follow her self-vote, the WWs don't seem to be taking any action, or attempting to get their Cobbler to do anything in particular.

But anyway, of the two I believe most strongly that Rikae is a WW. I believe that her frustration is genuine, or at least she sure came across that way. And if she truly wishes to wash her hands of this, killing her first would also be the sporting thing to do.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by the phantom

That is the direction I would go as well (I think she is the most likely WW of the two). But then if Izzy is the Cobbler we're obviously in trouble tomorrow. The question is when do you wish to take the biggest risk, today or tomorrow? And which of the two do you really feel is the biggest gamble? Personally I would say Izzy (hence my desire to take care of Rikae first- that way if we're wrong the next day we at least killed all but one, and I'd feel slightly better about my performance).

I don't feel good though about the fact that we are essentially being allowed to go in this direction with little fight (by "this direction" I mean lynch one of those two and then the other). Besides Rikae's request that Cobbler-Phantom follow her self-vote, the WWs don't seem to be taking any action, or attempting to get their Cobbler to do anything in particular.

But anyway, of the two I believe most strongly that Rikae is a WW. I believe that her frustration is genuine, or at least she sure came across that way. And if she truly wishes to wash her hands of this, killing her first would also be the sporting thing to do.

Alright then. It's time for me to go to bed pretty soon, I do have school in the morning. So I'll just wait another 15 minutes or so and then I'll be voting for Rikae.

Just want to wait a tad longer, make sure nothing else comes up.

[the phantom]

Please wait for Brin, Wilwa.

I wouldn't want to be accused of misleading you.

[wilwarin538]

haha, I'll wait a little while, but I can't wait forever I'm afraid.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by tp

If the WQ can turn a White Pawn into royalty, perhaps the BQ could change the Black Pawn? It seems fair (except for that it'd be near impossible to find a lone Black Pawn unless xe was being a bit too obvious). But perhaps the WWs had that ability as well?

If that were so, wouldn't there be three wolves then? And if the BQ scried the BP then they would be on her side, so then there would've been three kills last Night, not two.

I have to say, you're making me uneasy, phantom. Sorry, but I just don't trust you...

[Brinniel]

Right now it's looking like Rikae is our best choice. For one thing, she's a bigger threat to keep around. If one of our two known baddies is a cobbler, then we need to get the cobbler toDay. And honestly, I have trouble seeing Izzy as the Black Pawn; she just doesn't seem cobblerish. So props to her if she is.

Just don't hate me if I'm wrong...

[wilwarin538]

Alrighty then, just wanted confirmation from her majesty,

++Rikae

If I don't manage to survive the Night, I wish the White team good luck!

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

If that were so, wouldn't there be three wolves then? And if the BQ scried the BP then they would be on her side, so then there would've been three kills last Night, not two.

No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the WWs or BQ successfully scried anyone at any point. I'm saying that it makes sense that they would have the potential to find the "cursed villager" as it is called in most games, either via scry or kill. If the WQ can turn White Pawns (and there's lots of them so she has decent odds), I think it likely that the BQ or the WWs had the ability to turn the Black Pawn on the off chance they could find xem.

I don't think it actually happened. Otherwise we'd be dead as the number of WWs would equal the number of villagers. Repeat: I don't think that happened!

My point about this was simply in reference to my case about the narrative possibly hinting at one of the Black pieces becoming a Rook, and your counter-point that "It wasn't in the rules so it can't be true". My meaning is that the rules obviously don't say everything, and logically there are things we do not know about the baddies.

But if my crack-pot theory is correct, Rikae would indeed be the safe one to lynch. So my idea was not meant to conflict with your leanings at all. Rikae would be my choice as well.

[the phantom]

And now I shall eat my dinner. Be back in a bit.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by tp

No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the WWs or BQ successfully scried anyone at any point. I'm saying that it makes sense that they would have the potential to find the "cursed villager" as it is called in most games, either via scry or kill. If the WQ can turn White Pawns (and there's lots of them so she has decent odds), I think it likely that the BQ or the WWs had the ability to turn the Black Pawn on the off chance they could find xem.

I don't think it actually happened. Otherwise we'd be dead as the number of WWs would equal the number of villagers. Repeat: I don't think that happened!

Okay, well I thought you were suggesting a Black Rook had been scried since you were talking about the possibility of one being around, but I guess not. Anyway, even if there was a scrying ability among the Black team, a new rook couldn't have been scried immediately after Lari's death. So if the narration means anything, it at least doesn't mean that.

[Isabellkya]

Why couldn't a new rook of been scried immediately after Lariren's death?


Just to clarify. I never said there was anything more going on, than there seemed. I merely stated that there are no known roles amongst us, and no one knows anything.
Quite a difference.

In terms of known roles, you could technically count the personal role which each person holds as known. However, it isn't known publicly until death.

Why should the suspected baddies be ignored Brin?
Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?
Innocents are not immune to lying.

Phantom you made a comment about the "suspected" baddies not putting up a fight or something along those lines.

See the above comment. If you are marked for baddieness; regardless of the truth - the "innocents" say to ignore you.

[Mnemosyne]

Back and much more awake/coherent than I was.

Interesting thoughts about evil scrying, though it doesn't seem to do much good at this point? Unless phantom has known this all along and that was his asking whoever is remaining to kill/scry him toNight--

I'm leaning more towards Rikae because she looks mildly more cobblerish than Izzy (although, once again, this is Rikae we're talking about), but I'm still thinking and hoping that both of them are full wolves.

Hopefully toMorrow will bring enough easily identifiable information (I could just see a reveal/counterreveal, ) that we can have this game in the bag.

And of course everyone's obeying Brinn, phantom! Our last baddie is lying low!

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Why should the suspected baddies be ignored Brin?
Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?
Innocents are not immune to lying.

Of course your alignment doesn't change your ability to reason. But your motivations are entirely different from the rest of the village's: we want to destroy you; you want to destroy us. If you can get us to think, whether through honesty, lying, omission, reasoning, emotional appeals, etc., in a way that benefits our own destruction, of course you're going to take it!

Similarly, if an innocent can so deceive the wolves that they make choices that lead to their own destruction, even if it means lying, of course they're going to take it.

We aren't ignoring you because we think your reasoning is tainted. We're ignoring you (except me, apparently ) because we don't trust you, plain and simple.

[Isabellkya]

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.

No, I didn't. However, given your complaining that people are ignoring you, you're giving me a really good case for joining the ranks and refusing to respond to you anymore.

[Isabellkya]

Si, you did.
I wasn't complaining. Merely pointing something out.

It is quite entertaining for me; to point blank say the truth about things and what is going to happen - and watch it get passed over as hogwash. I'm quite content knowing I've added years to my life from laughing. xD

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mnem

Interesting thoughts about evil scrying, though it doesn't seem to do much good at this point? Unless phantom has known this all along and that was his asking whoever is remaining to kill/scry him toNight

Har har - really, this whole thing has gotten totally off-track at this point.

The only reason I brought up the potential scrying in the first place is to demonstrate that, as we were given no warning of Brin's scrying power, we cannot use the rules to cast out any idea regarding unwritten WW powers (primarily the idea I had about one of the WWs taking over the Rook role when the Rook went down).

If that is indeed a secret Wolf power, then I would doubt that they could scry on top of that. I would however suspect that the BQ might've had scrying powers, seeing as she is the counter of the WQ.

And frankly, if it was suspected that the WWs could scry as well, an WP Phantom would be just as likely to wish to be scried as a BP Phantom, as attracting the scry to myself would waste it. So if it even was my intention to get the WWs to waste a scry me, which it wasn't, then you basically just ruined the ploy. Unless that was your intention of course.

But as I said, I think it highly unlikely that the WWs can do anything of the sort. If they can do anything, then it's replace their Hunter. And as Rikae seems to be the Bishop, I'd say that killing her seems like an even better idea than it was before I brought this up.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Si, you did.
I wasn't complaining. Merely pointing something out.

It is quite entertaining for me; to point blank say the truth about things and what is going to happen - and watch it get passed over as hogwash. I'm quite content knowing I've added years to my life from laughing. xD

Explain, then, how "innocent villagers should ignore evil baddies because they can't trust them" means "innocent villagers should ignore themselves."

And of course, if what you're saying is true, you're using a time-honored technique: knowing that everyone's going to ignore you, or read through your stuff as entertaining lies, you can tell the truth and it might actually do more harm for the village than lying, because they assume your honesty is a pack of lies. I don't begrudge you it in the least.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Why couldn't a new rook of been scried immediately after Lariren's death?

Because I couldn't scry a new rook on the same Night Nerwen died, and if a Black piece could scry, I would imagine their scry abilities to be equal to mine.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Does supposedly having a "baddie" role, pollute the mind, and erase it of all logical and reasoning skills? Or is it because, you think a "baddie" will lie their way out of death?

Well, of course I would expect a baddie to lie, manipulate, etc in order to get out of lynching (unless they had reason to want to be lynched). That's what I would do; I wouldn't expect you guys to just give up and tell us the truth about everything you know. There's no rules against lying, so why not? And since I know you're evil and could potentially lie about anything you say, I'm not going to follow your every word.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Innocents are not immune to lying.

Yes, innocents can lie too. But for the opposite reasons of the wolves. Generally an innocent won't lie if it's ultimately going to do harm to the village.

Originally Posted by Izzy

You basically just said, to ignore yourselves.

Obviously we aren't going to ignore ourselves since we all know our own role.

As for the others, out of Mnemo, wilwa, and tp, I know that one is evil of some sort but not which. While I can't completely trust any of them, I will most certainly will be listening to what they have to say over you, a known baddie.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by phantom

And frankly, if it was suspected that the WWs could scry as well, an WP Phantom would be just as likely to wish to be scried as a BP Phantom, as attracting the scry to myself would waste it. So if it even was my intention to get the WWs to waste a scry me, which it wasn't, then you basically just ruined the ploy. Unless that was your intention of course.

Dear phantom, I am not so devious a player as to try something like that. As it is, how exactly would the ploy be ruined? The wolves don't know what you are any more than I do; they might be willing to take a risk. And if someone did get "turned," we would have no clue of whom they actually pursued.

But this is all spec ultimately intended to induce conversation which will hopefully give those of us who are innocents some idea as to who is guilty, as well as a way to keep my brain occupied in the hours before deadline. Likely you're right and the wolves don't have any sort of scrying power at all.

[Isabellkya]

Brin-
How do you know that I'm evil?
How am I a known baddie?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

While I can't completely trust any of them, I will most certainly will be listening to what they have to say over you, a known baddie.

If you want to know what we think about Izzy- here are my thoughts.

1) If Izzy is indeed the Cobbler it would be remarkably convenient that Rikae chose her as her target during her reveal.

2) But if Izzy is indeed a WW, wasn't Rikae even slightly worried that she would be believed and that Izzy would be lynched, and the next day the WQ reveals with better proofs?

3) Unless she expected the WQ to reveal immediately, and thus "save" Izzy from her fate and pretty much make Izzy look clean.

4) Izzy did not kick and scream about it as I believe an Ordo would, but that means nothing seeing as a Cobbler and a WW in on the plan would react similarly. For the Cobbler would know immediately that it was a false reveal (because they know they're not a WW), and they'd play along. But naturally a WW would too.

5) A given from my point of view, but not from anyone else's, is that I am a White Pawn, meaning that either Mnem or Wilwa must be evil. So it must be taken into account whether or not I believe either of them to be a Cobbler or WW.

6) I would more readily believe Wilwa as a WW as opposed to a Cobbler, as I marked her early on a couple times for seeming to submarine through things. And though I can't remember her fully from past games, I think she's the sort that would act rather... crazy, as a Cobbler.

7) I have no clue whatsoever about Mnem. I have no experience with her. Early on I gave her the Noob free pass (surely she wouldn't have a role in her first game etc), but I cannot overlook the fact that she's been a famous lurker on the Downs and in WW and our mod knew her before the game ever started.

8) At first reaction I might see Wilwa as slightly more innocent than Mnem, partly due to the fact that she seems to be the only one that trusts me. But as it is completely possible that she is buttering me up just to use me later, I really shouldn't allow that to sway me.

Finally-
9) As Izzy is the only individual that is a known baddie, I would likely guess in that direction on principle if it came down to it. It seems to me that at least killing a baddie (whatever they are) the final day is better than taking a chance on a baddie and failing. It would make me feel better anyway, as I have always cared rather more about my performance than the actual winning and losing (i.e. I'd rather play my best and lose than play like crap and get lucky and win- personal pride, ya know).

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Izzy

How do you know that I'm evil?
How am I a known baddie?

Well let's see here...

I sent a PM to Shasta telling him I wanted to make you the White Knight. He messaged me back to let me know I was unsuccessful.

I can only successfully scry a player if they are the White Pawn. Therefore you cannot be ordinary.

So then, you must be a role that is not a White Pawn. Then my options must be:

-White Rook? Nope, she died a long time ago (and so did the second one, but obviously I already knew who she was).

-White Knight? Nah, he got lynched. So you can't be that either.

-White Bishop? No...that was Kath.

-White Queen? Nope, that's me.

-Black Queen? Sally hunted the BQ last Night, so you're obviously not her.

That leaves:

-Black Pawn

-Black Knight

-Black Bishop

All of which are evil roles.

Sorry dear, but you are definitely evil. It's pure logic, simple as that.

EDIT: X-ed with tp

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by phantom

our mod knew her before the game ever started.

Knew of me, sir. Not knew me. Otherwise, all your points look nice and salient.