Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mnem

Dear phantom, I am not so devious a player as to try something like that.

Ah, so Mnem is not a devious WW player? *pouts* And I was hoping you'd try and model yourself after me.

As it is, how exactly would the ploy be ruined?

Well, as I wasn't running the ploy in the first place, I can assure you it wasn't ruined.

Anyway, seriously, no more on that. I'm done discussing that junk. Quite honestly I'm tired of this day.

I'm going to take a quick shower and such so I'm ready to get to bed after the Day-end. Be back.

[Mnemosyne]

Oh, and phantom, of course I don't trust you. It's Day 5?, you're a known innocent (unless you're the cobbler) and you're still alive. 'Nuff said.

Also, the whole "she's new so the mod wouldn't give her any roles, right?" could also apply to wilwa, who I believe left WW before Shasta began... I think... Granted, the reasoning doesn't apply as well and I sure as heck don't know why I'm giving you reasons to make you think her innocent (if you are innocent), but still, "she hasn't been around for a while" isn't that different from "she's new," especially if the latter she was a notorious lurkette.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by phantom

And I was hoping you'd try and model yourself after me.

I don't think the universe could handle it if not one, but two players had an ego your size.

[Isabellkya]

Indeed. Logic based on information you know.

Anyhow.
Question for everyone.
What is going to happen if Brin doesn't die during the Night, and it isn't due to being saved?

[Isabellkya]

*Final Jeopardy music*

I think I am going to vote soon, no sense in waiting until the very last second.

*continue with Final Jeopardy music*

[the phantom]

Brin, we're not going to wait till the last minute and discuss things and get all frantic then, are we?

And at this point it's really only your vote that counts. You can put Rikae out of reach all by yourself. Or are you having second thoughts and might actually need one of our votes to help?

[Mnemosyne]

++Rikae

Good luck toNight, Brin!

[Brinniel]

Some thoughts about the three unknowns:

wilwa: For most of the game I thought she looked very innocent. Though last Night I took a look at her overall opinions and reaction to Rikae and it all looks rather safe. Could be innocent or could be evil. Though if she's evil, my best guess is that she's a wolf simply because her behaviour does not look the slightest bit cobblerish.

Mnemo: I have been slightly suspicious of her throughout most of the game, though I thought her reaction to Rikae's reveal looked very innocent. I want to say I think she's more likely innocent than not, though obviously I can't trust that as she could very well be either the final wolf or cobbler.

phantom: I must say, he's my most likely cobbler candidate. His behaviour just seems more cobblerish compared to anyone else (besides perhaps Rikae). Also, I admit I can never truly trust him. The one time I started to, he turned out to be evil.

So, in order from most suspicious to least suspicious:

1. phantom
2. wilwa
3. Mnemo

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by phantom

Brin, we're not going to wait till the last minute and discuss things and get all frantic then, are we?

And at this point it's really only your vote that counts. You can put Rikae out of reach all by yourself. Or are you having second thoughts and might actually need one of our votes to help?

Nah, I said let's vote Rikae, so let's keep it that way. We can worry about Izzy toMorrow. So hopefully this is the right choice:

++Rikae

[Mnemosyne]

Brinn (and this is totally up to you), how much are you willing to discuss your strategies toNight?

Awkward/suspicious of me to ask, I know, but it may be helpful for her* to have some guidance if one of the white pawns is turned.

*used because the majority of unknowns is female at the moment.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

Nah, I said let's vote Rikae, so let's keep it that way. We can worry about Izzy toMorrow. So hopefully this is the right choice:

Okay.

++Rikae

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mnemo

Brinn (and this is totally up to you), how much are you willing to discuss your strategies toNight?

Awkward/suspicious of me to ask, I know, but it may be helpful for her* to have some guidance if one of the white pawns is turned.

It'll be up to the final wolf to look at my posts and figure out my plans for toNight.

If any of you unknowns would like to give advice, go ahead. But I won't necessarily take it.

[the phantom]

I'm not giving you any advice.

1) If it's wrong then I'll feel stupid.

2) It doesn't seem you trust me anyway.

3) I already have an excellent idea of what you have planned, and I expect it will work.

[Isabellkya]

++Brinniel

I don't trust these reveals. Didn't trust Rikae with hers, and see no reason to trust Brin with hers.

[Brinniel]

Anway, to the final wolf (or two if Rikae's a cobbler):

Kill me if you dare. I have a 2/3 chance of scrying a ranger and they'll no doubt protect me.

Wouldn't it be brilliant if she killed the cobbler?

[the phantom]

*Brin slaps her forehead, realizing she had accidentally given her three-vote power to Izzy*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Stop talking.

Day 5

Rikae had been moved hastily, and in error, by a Sauron who saw his easy victory slipping away right before his eyes. The Black Bishop was taken, and Gandalf smiled.

Pieces:
Isabellkya
the phantom
Brinniel
wilwarin538
Mnemosyne

Taken:
Shasta - Ke3xe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)
Nogrod - f6xg5 (Lynched), Day 2 (White Knight)
Mirandir - Ba6xe2 (Killed), Night 3 (White Pawn)
Hansy - g3xh2 (Lynched), Day 3 (White Pawn)
Lariren Shadow - Qh4xe4 (Killed), Night 4 (Black Rook)
Eonwe - Re1xe4 (Hunted), Night 4 (White Pawn)
Kath - Be2xf1 (Killed), Night 4 (White Bishop)
Durelin - a6xb6 (en passant) (Lynched), Day 4 (White Pawn)
satansaloser2005 - Na4xc3 (Killed), Night 5 (White Rook)
Feanor of the Peredhil - Rc7xc3++ (Hunted), Night 5 (Black Queen)
Rikae - Ka3xb3 (Lynched), Day 5 (Black Bishop)

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

*Brin slaps her forehead, realizing she had accidentally given her three-vote power to Izzy*

ROFL



Xed with His Moddesty

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have a problem.

To be fair to the last wolf, I would have to count the PM I received at 12:02 (the same time as the narration went up) that made the attack on the White Queen happen, thus discounting the White Queen's powers, the order-of-PMs style I've done all game (since technically, since the wolf's PM came in first, the Queen would be dead before being able to use said powers). However, the fact that the wolf's PM came at the exact same time as the narration meant that the Queen had no chance to do anything... which isn't fair to the Queen.

To be fair to the Queen, I'd have to let her powers go through even though the wolf's PM came first. Obviously, that would mean discounting the wolf's PM... which isn't fair to the wolf.

I honestly have no idea what to do. Rather than bumble my own way through and make more people mad at me than already are mad at me, I decided to set the situation out for you guys to see and give opinions on.

Thank you for your time.

-Shasta

Oh, and feel free to post. This basically decides the game, so I see no point in waiting another 24 hours.

[Mnemosyne]

*long whistle*

So, the basic question is, do the Queen's powers go through or not, right?

Self-interest says "yes," but a coinflip is a heckuvan entertaining way to go (especially if my side wins after it all!)

I'll try to approach this from as unbiased a perspective as I can:

1). If the Queen's triple vote pick does not go through, the game is decided by chance.
2). If the Queen's triple vote pick does go through, the game is decided by her judgment.

So 2). looks marginally better, but it's still not quite fair...

If we want some reaaaaaally interesting Night dynamics, what if to even out the race we gave the last Wolf an extra kill?

Game is now decided by Queen's and Wolf's judgment, a nice little "guess what I'm thinking" dance. Also really stressful, and would slightly skew the stats in the Wolf's favor, since the Queen could pick the (surviving) cobbler.

And just to be sure: did the pick go in before or after narration came up? "same minute" does not equal "same time."

[Mnemosyne]

Could we maybe have some veteran WWers who weren't in this game weigh in?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I know I was in this game, but as a dead player, my opinion isn't biased by wanting to win any more (I already lost, and I was only ever on my own team anyway):

As the BQ, I was taken out by order of PMs before I could do anything, and we - at least you and I - know quite well that what I was going to do would have changed game dynamics pretty significantly. Also, Shasta, remember what we talked about? I wasn't the start of the precedent for timing determining action. It's only fair that the WQ be removed by the same set of process rules.

Humbly,
L

[Durelin]

I say the White Queen goes down before she can do a thing.

[wilwarin538]

hmmm, I guess you should just stick to however you've been doing it up until this point, it wouldn't be fair to change the rules all of a sudden, besides, it's not like either option completely gurantees a win for a specific side, from what I understand either way you go both teams still have a chance of winning.

So I suppose your only option is to let the WQ die, it sucks for the White team but it's really only fair.

[satansaloser2005]

Meh, I know I'm dead but I had a thought.


When my hunter pick went in I believe I was still poking you about the narration, so essentially mine and Fea's situation is the same as the one that was encountered toNight. The narration wasn't up, but I sent in my pick anyway because I knew exactly who I wanted to hunt, whereas Fea (may have) needed time to consider her kill. Still, since my pick went in before hers she was rendered immobile so her actions weren't acknowledged.


I know it seems a bit hypocritical given what I told you (Shasta) on IM, but now that my situation comes to mind I realize that neutralizing the White Queen's choices is the only fair way to proceed. I apologize for not thinking of it sooner and thus probably giving you a bit of a headahce, but since the situations are the same, I think they should be handled the same, even if it means my side may/will lose.


In the future, however, I would suggest that if a mod goes by PM order he/she requires that players wait a certain amount of time before PMs are accepted, even if it's just 10 minutes, so that people have a chance to read the narration and make their picks/kills with that information available to them. I would actually not suggest going by PM order at all (given time zones and other circumstances that may make it difficult for players to be present right after the deadline) because it isn't quite fair to those involved.


I should probably fade back into the shadows now but I wanted to put my two cents in for all to see, and of course I'll accept your final decision with as much grace as is possible for me.


Great game either way everyone. Look forward to seeing you all in a proper post game discussion!

Love,
~~Sally~~

[Brinniel]

At this point, I think it's really too late to change from your original decision, Shasta. Already halfway into the Night and knowing more information than I should, I just have an unfair advantage. And quite honestly while Mnemo's suggestion was an interesting one, I am too stressed and frustrated to be given the pressure of making yet another decision. And we all know anyway that whatever decision I make, it'd just be the wrong one.

Am I peeved to find out that I was killed before I had even finished reading the narration? Of course. I find it unfair that while the wolf was able to write her PM before the end of the Day since she did already knew the results of the lynch and could immediately hit the submit button at deadline. I didn't have a chance to even process the information from Rikae's death before it was all over for me. But please keep in mind that I don't mean to offend and I am not mad at anyone, but merely at the situation. Because I realise now that the game was over before yesterDay even began since the wolves already had the advantage (and please don't tell me again that this game was unbalanced against the baddies since obviously if it was, you wouldn't be winning).

Yes, I realise the outcome of the Night is due to PM order, which is why I won't make a pick even if you ask for it. After all, even if the wolf didn't submit her kill within 30 seconds of deadline, I probably wouldn't have come to a decision in time. It was late and I was exhausted with analysing everything for hours each day, and while I love WW, I do have a life and other things to do...plus midterms this week. So in all fairness, I probably wouldn't have had made a pick until today since I was basically braindead by 1am. I'll mention though, I didn't realise until late yesterDay Night that the Night went by PM order and how much it affected the outcome of the game. On one hand Night by PM order does seem like an interesting idea. On the other, when the players are spread out across the world it can put some people at a disadvantage. For example, if Kath had been the White Queen, there is absolutely no way she could've beaten the wolf by PM order since deadline is 6am for her. I'm not saying to stop using the Night by PM order technique, but this is just something to keep in mind for the future.

It's really up to you, Shasta, what you want to do. It's not my decision to make, so I could care less. Either do a coin toss or just let the wolves win. Because if in the end the game is determined by a race to who can PM the fastest, then the wolves certainly deserve to win since they are much quicker at making decisions than I can ever be (not saying they don't deserve it anyway; I would've never figured them out were I an ordo). Though if Night goes by PM order again, I do request that it's stated in the rules so that players are warned ahead of time. And that way I can sit it out since I already know I could never win by timing being one of the most indecisive people ever (I never submit my choices until barely before deadline). I already feel bad enough that I lost this game for my team; I just don't want to let it happen again.

If I hadn't already promised Sally I'd play in her game, I would take a break from WW as I probably should. This is the third game in a row I've screwed up. Seriously, something must be wrong with me.

Anyway, if you do decide on a coin flip, I too request that you do it via live feed. It'd certainly make my day more interesting. Or you could take my original suggestion and simply let Mith win instead.

[Brinniel]

Oh, and I forgot to mention:

I don't know if you are planning to start a Day 6, but I wouldn't bother. We already know what the outcome will be, as it's quite obvious. You might as well make a decision as soon as you're ready to. Anyway, it'll relieve the tension for all of us.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

With those opinions and those of a few PMs I've received, I've decided to decide the game by coin-flip since that's what the outcome of a Day 6 would be.

I also don't think I'll be hosting again. That should make some of you happy.

[Isabellkya]

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Izzy

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win

Now that sounds like a good idea.

And aww, Shasta, don't say that. This was a very interesting game with a very cool concept and at least I thought it was fun! People just seem to forget that it is a game...for fun...I'm guilty of that myself sometimes.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I think you should just call it a draw; and everyone shares the Win.

Seconded - but Mith should win.

Anyway, I want to apologize to Shasta and the rest of you for getting mad. It's impossible to know how an experimental game will turn out, and the point is not to quibble about whether the game is balanced, but play the best one can with the roles and rules as they are... I remembered that too late. Good game, everyone!

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Shasta

I also don't think I'll be hosting again. That should make some of you happy.

Aw c'mon, don't be so hard on yourself. You were not wrong in any way on the choices you made. This was a more experimental game than others, so some of the problems that arose could not be foreseen. Keep in mind that a lot of past mods have had obstacles or problems arise during the game. In the game I modded, one of my wws had to drop out early and I had to make the decision whether to create a new one. I made what I thought was the best decision, but still not everyone was happy. And I know there have been mods who have encountered issues a lot worse than that...and a lot worse than this as well.

So don't let a few problems discourage you. Like I keep telling you, I have absolutely nothing against you. I thought your game was a wonderful idea and you did a great job working on it. When you first told me about the concept about someone secretly having extra vote power, I found it fascinating. It's a new role which adds some interesting twists, though like any experimental role, it could be tweaked and altered a bit if ever used in future games. Of course you have to try out a new role first before you can know what could be improved.

All in all, I did enjoy this game. I think I just put too much time and effort into WW which can be cause for extra frustration. So perhaps in the future I shouldn't try so hard and be more carefree and less analytical. Now we'll just have to see if I can actually change my style.

Btw, will the coin flip be streamed on live video?

[the phantom]

Real quickly- I'm fine with letting Mith be the winner.

We certainly can't play out the final day now due to the fact that Mnem made telling RL statements after you asked for input, as well as the fact that the timing of the conflict is is now known to everyone, meaning that Wilwa, who was not even around at the time, is suddenly extremely clean looking for RL reasons, for she could not have sent in the early PM.

Personally I'd like to think that the day would not have ended in a coin flip, but we can never know.

[Mnemosyne]

Yeah, well, before I even posted I talked to Shasta and he said last Day wasn't happening. But, yeah, last Day is even more in shambles than it was.

I call live coinflip on webcam!

If it lands on its side, Mith wins.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by the phantom

as well as the fact that the timing of the conflict is is now known to everyone, meaning that Wilwa, who was not even around at the time, is suddenly extremely clean looking for RL reasons, for she could not have sent in the early PM.

haha, if we had made it to a Day 6 that would have been my exact defence for myself.

Coin flip, draw, Mith win, it's all fine with me.

[the phantom]

I've got it!

Frodo tosses the Ring into Mount Doom and it explodes, knocking over the chess board! The game was entirely a distraction meant to keep Sauron occupied while Frodo crept past undetected beneath the board.

I'm thinking I'd rather not have a coin flip at this point. Technically, the worst the baddies could've managed was a coin flip, while the best the goodies could've managed was a coin flip. Two of the players left were guaranteed not to vote for a WW, while the other two had a 50% chance, so if we wanted to be true to the odds the coin would need to land correctly for the good side twice in a row to secure victory.

But rather than do that, I would be content to declare Mith the victor, as she is the highest ranking chess piece still on the board, and stood no chance of being lynched.

**********
Grey wins...

HoME XVI, Derivative Works, Part C, Werewolf Games, section H-

It was an age of compromise in Middle-Earth. In an event unforseen by even the Valar, good and evil united, and the forces of greyness swept over the lands unchecked, doing deeds of compassion and cruelty far and wide. And Mithalwen beheld all that was done, and saw that it was good- and evil. Then she rejoiced and sang, and the peoples of Middle-Earth heard her voice and its surpassing beauty, and they swore allegiance to her and honored her above all others.

[wilwarin538]

sounds good to me

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I approve.

All hail my beloved Mith, who encourages me to misbehave.

[Nerwen]

Hey, when I first read the phantom's post I seriously thought it was the final narration.
EDIT: and it was, basically. Weird game.

...Shasta, don't be so hard on yourself. This has been a really interesting game, even as a spectator.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by tp

I'm thinking I'd rather not have a coin flip at this point. Technically, the worst the baddies could've managed was a coin flip, while the best the goodies could've managed was a coin flip. Two of the players left were guaranteed not to vote for a WW, while the other two had a 50% chance, so if we wanted to be true to the odds the coin would need to land correctly for the good side twice in a row to secure victory.

But rather than do that, I would be content to declare Mith the victor, as she is the highest ranking chess piece still on the board, and stood no chance of being lynched.

Well, I wouldn't say that. By toMorrow I think it would've become rather clear who the cobbler considering their vote and anyway, I really can't imagine the other two not voting Izzy...

But I'm still content with Mith winning. After all, it's our fault for not lynching her.