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03-28-2006, 07:59 AM | #81 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
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Then in response to your post #53 Nienna is placed, and appears in post #55: Quote:
So, your argument that Nienna had not been included because because of your post #53 does not apply to my question, which pertained to a removal. You know, I really agree with Child and Mr. U and SpM that this kind of thing seems to run counter to Tolkien's use of Frodo, but isn't it fun? I wonder if we could also do a parallel list about Spiritual properties, a hierarchy of the most true. By how much would it differ from this one? Really, we do dance upon barrow tops.
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03-28-2006, 08:59 AM | #82 |
The Perilous Poet
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Why not go the whole hog and couch the debate in more sensible terms; ie 'who could whup whom?'
I'm fondly imagining that Tulkas would give Sauron the royal smack-down. Or, more pertinently, I don't think you can place such disparate entities on any sort of coherent list. You could have an amusing debate on which Elf was the fastest or which Dwarf the dwarfiest, but comparing gods and mortals is a plan which aft gan aglay so often that the mice have given up.
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03-29-2006, 07:04 PM | #83 | ||||||||||
Itinerant Songster
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And here is the Updated List. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-29-2006 at 07:10 PM. |
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03-29-2006, 11:24 PM | #84 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar and would own the hell out of the WK. Cirdan is Calaquend (although Telerin [edit: some may have noticed this error]) as well, homeboy, so the WK's got nothing on him. Turin ruined Glaurung, so how do you reconcile that? I won't make my own list, but I might rearrange yours a little. I recommend: - add Olorin to the list immediately above or below Sauron - move Eonwe to right below the Valar and move Sauron and Olorin just below him - add Arien above Sauron and below Eonwe - drop Earendil below all the Maiar - Ungoliante should be somewhere amidst the Valar, though who is above and below I couldn't say - add Curumo (to distinguish between Saruman in his incarnate form and his natural form, as with Olorin and Gandalf above) and place him just below Olorin - move the dragons below all the Maiar - add Gothmog and place him below Curumo - move the Balrogs to the bottom of the Maiar list but above all the others except for Glorfindel, Luthien, Thingol, Feanor, Finrod, Galadriel, and Galdor (who you need to add) - remove The Ring - what's Arwen doing on this list? Last edited by obloquy; 03-30-2006 at 12:52 AM. |
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03-30-2006, 01:45 AM | #85 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sorry Obloquy but to have the list with all sorts of minor beasties on, and not Arwen, after all she is the daughter of Elrond and grand-daughter of Galadriel, she must have some power; more than a lot of the humans on the list. In saying all that, it is never apparent, we can only assume by her lineage and teachings at Rivendell, that she has power, surely she didn't spend all day lounging around like some bored little princess. If she did have power, where on the list would Elladan and Elrohir come?, who must surely have had special training.
On another note, where is that great dragon-slayer Bard?
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03-30-2006, 02:24 AM | #86 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 03-30-2006 at 02:37 AM. |
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03-30-2006, 02:58 AM | #87 | ||
Wight
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Some minor nit-picks:
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"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
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03-30-2006, 05:22 AM | #88 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think that Huan, like the the Mearas, were special bred animals from Valinor. Were they not bred by Orome, for his hunting of the evil creatures of Middle-Earth?. If Huan was a Maia, why was he given special permission to speak, even non-Maia creatures can speak, even Gurthang spoke, surely a Maia would be able to converse in any body quite freely.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 03-30-2006 at 05:27 AM. |
03-30-2006, 08:12 AM | #89 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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WK was not going to be slain by any "man" - wouldnt that default him above at least all the human males? What about elvish males? Huan - Quote:
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03-30-2006, 09:30 AM | #90 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Greatest.........................
I think the problem with a list like this, is its fragmentation. If you were to sub-catergorize into species or items, sort them out into some kind of order, then you could try and slot them into place. At the moment there is a lot of problems trying to come to terms with species against species, and there are persons in the wrong order in there own catergory. This will also cause problems no doubt, with people claiming Elendil to be more powerful than Aragorn. One thing to remember Middle-Earth was in decline, and so were its people, The Three were made to hold back that decay. Another problem to occur is that of double entries, or in the case of Olorin/Gandalf the Grey/White, triple. If this is the case then what do we do with Feanor, do we place him as the greatest elf that ever lived, then put in another entry for him somewhere further down the list, after the madness of The Kinslaying. Another one is the Hurin/Turin saga, should we look at individuals at the greatest moment , or at their worst/weakest. If the list intended to show what order individuals were in solely on the height of their powers, then it would be very different than at their lowest.
Sorry The 1,000th Reader, but Turin didn't stab Glaurung while he slept, he did it as the worm crossed a ravine, after he had been sleeping.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 03-30-2006 at 09:37 AM. |
03-30-2006, 12:27 PM | #91 | |||||
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And while I admit that Tolkien did go back and forth about Huan's original nature (Maia vs. 'special beast') the Maiarin origin is the most likely considering these points: Huan formulated his own thoughts in his heart (Sil.), rather than parroting those of others or being a sort of puppet to another's will; Huan defeated Sauron, as well as a mega-beast that was saturated with Morgoth's mojo; it is said of Huan that "no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength could overthrow [him]." Additionally, there is Tolkien's footnote to Myths Transformed (in which he debates the nature of the Eagles and Huan) that says "As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)" Tolkien's words, not mine. In any case, since this discussion is not about Huan's nature exactly, but rather about his relative power, I'll reiterate my suggestion to go read about him again and then tell me what "feeling" you get. Quote:
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A lot of the people on this list would be difficult to place exactly in relation to others of similar spiritual stature. I suggest moving to a bracket format wherein varying degrees of power are recognized within a bracket without requiring those beings to be sorted when it's impossible to gauge them against one another. |
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03-30-2006, 01:01 PM | #92 | |||
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Next, notice that Huan does not- or, I theorize, cannot- kill Sauron. Sauron cannot escape him without grave humiliation, but Huan does not kill him. It is Lúthien, later on in the same paragraph, who threatens him with being stripped of his flesh, and being sent back to Angband a naked spirit, suggesting that this power lies in Lúthien, not Huan. A final point to note about the fight between Huan and Sauron is that Sauron started out with a disadvantage: Quote:
Again, call me a fool if you like, but reading about the fight tells me one thing: it took both Huan and Lúthien to beat Sauron. Before Sauron was cornered by Huan, Lúthien could not threaten him with the division of fëa and hröa- in fact, she fainted at his attack. Likewise, Huan could not defeat Sauron, only deprive him of the victory, and he was aided by Lúthien's cloak, and by Sauron's own choice to attack him in Werewolf form to fulfill the prophecy. I respectfully submit to the littlemanpoets of the jury that Sauron be placed above Lúthien and Huan.
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03-30-2006, 01:26 PM | #93 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Like the Huan example, the difficulty is in quantifying entities who are special and unique, and have, apart from magical or supernatural abilities, also may have dooms or fates that are of... a more.... divine nature that supercede anything else. Apples to apples it would be Sauron over Huan. Lordliness, skills over nature and technology, powers of command, etc. Apples to oranges it would be Huan over Sauron. Put them both in the Thunderdome, one on one, and it would be Huan having the mastery, as it was related in the Silm. And thats with (IMO) Sauron having personal powers that far exceeded what he had in the 2nd or 3rd ages. Quote:
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03-30-2006, 01:34 PM | #94 | |
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Huan had an advantage at the start of the fight that was not related to either his strength or Sauron's. I refer, of course, to Lúthien's cloak, which she brushed past him as he attacked. Furthermore, Sauron did not utilize his full abilities in battle, but rather changed form and attacked as a Werewolf, hoping to fulfill the prophecy about Huan. Had Sauron attacked as himself, or maybe as an oliphaunt or something, the outcome could have been different. And, yes, the prophecy would have been nullified- but since Sauron DIDN'T, Huan went on to die at Carcharoth's jaws. It's very analogous to the Witchking situation. Had Glorfindel and the Witchking fought during the fall of Arnor, it's entirely possible that the Witchking would have been destroyed then and there. But they didn't, so we are left with the "not by hand of man shall he fall"- which is, of course, what happens. But this does not mean that Glorfindel (or Eärnur, for that matter) COULDN'T have defeated the Witchking, but that they DIDN'T. So, although I acknowledge the fact that Huan was a very impressive beast, and probably worth more than the Fëanorian lord he served, and that he was definitely a challenge for Sauron, I don't think that one-on-one he could have taken Sauron down. He needed Lúthien's help just as Lúthien needed his.
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03-30-2006, 02:11 PM | #95 | |||||
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Additionally, some Eldar ought to be inserted into a special bracket that places them parallel to the Maiar. Luthien was obviously exceptionally powerful, perhaps ranking among Olorin, Sauron, Melian, and Curumo. Glorfindel I would say was less powerful, though he could stand his ground against a Balrog and thus deserves to be ranked near them. Feanor, Galadriel, Finrod, Thingol, Finwe, Fingolfin and Finarfin (in approximately this order perhaps) should be placed only slightly below Luthien (who was the greatest of all the Children). You might add Olwe and Ingwe as well, except that we can only guess that their kingship was a result of a certain high degree of power on their part. Here's an interesting thread (involving myself and Formendacil, incidentally) about power levels among the Umaiar. * Quote:
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03-30-2006, 02:16 PM | #96 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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nice points!
I understand the point of Luthien's contributions, but I also think that Sauron's tactics were employed to instill fear, and not with the knowledge that he had to assume a certain form in order to slay the hound. I submit that he had no knowlege of, or took little heed to, the prophecy concerning Huan. And certainly had no (or little) knowlage Huan's nature: Quote:
I still lean towards the hound, but would place Sauron above him in the master list, if that makes sense. But that's just me, I suppose. I would argue that Huan was a greater agent (handling much higher stakes) for Eru than Gandalf was. Quote:
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03-30-2006, 09:09 PM | #97 | |||||
Itinerant Songster
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03-31-2006, 01:19 PM | #98 |
Haunting Spirit
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Can someone explain how the Blue Istari are placed above Radagast? I gotta believe Radagast places higher than 2 wizards who are never fully described...seeing as how there is very little on the Blue Istari under those names and we have at least that Radagast has some power over Birds, Animals, ect..., he should rank higher...
Alternatively, if Olorin and Gandalf get different entries, then Alatar and Pallando should be different entries than blue Istari and these should be ranked accordingly...but since there isn't much on Alatar, Pallando, OR Blue Istari (except that the Blue Istari failed in their mission because they presumably went into the East and never came into the story again), and there is at least some power residing in Radagast over birds/beasts/ect, then he should still rank higher
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03-31-2006, 02:33 PM | #99 |
Late Istar
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While I agree with those who have argued that this kind of list is ultimately impossible to reasonably construct, a few points do seem quite wrong to me in the list.
First, I agree with Thalion about Radagast. Why is he placed so low? He should be roughly as high as the other Istari; and I would place him above the Blue Wizards. Of course, the place of the Blue Wizards themselves can be no more than an uninformed guess, since we have no real information about them. Second, why is Beren lower Aragorn? I would place him roughly on par with Hurin and Turin. For that matter, Tuor (who is missing from the list) should be on about that level as well. Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability. Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid. That brings us to Morgoth. It seems to me that if we distinguish between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White, we ought also to distinguish the primordial Melkor from the pseudo-historical Morgoth, who had divested himself of most of his power and was even wounded by Fingolfin. I also don't understand why the Balrogs are not higher; nor why Frodo is as high as he is. |
03-31-2006, 03:26 PM | #100 | |
A Northern Soul
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Ungoliant appears to be more powerful than Ancalagon, though I don't know of any characteristics of the two that we can compare. Morgoth struggled with Ungoliant and could not control her. Would he have struggled with Ancalagon if he turned against him?
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Is Galadriel truly the most powerful of the Noldorin royal line?
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03-31-2006, 04:05 PM | #101 | |
Haunting Spirit
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When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...
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03-31-2006, 04:11 PM | #102 | |
Blithe Spirit
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Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was
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03-31-2006, 04:12 PM | #103 | |
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Let us first look at Shelob, Ungoliant's offspring. Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. Sam had the luck to be carrying a Gondolin-wrought sword on which Shelob was foolish enough to impale herself, but it says right there in the text that any other sort of assault would have been pretty much futile. "Not though the hand of Beren, Húrin, or Túrin wielded it" says the text, more or less. Therefore, Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. How much moreso, therefore, should Ungoliant be? After all, just as the Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring (or so it appears) of Shelob and males of lesser stature, I seem to recall it being said that Ungoliant mated with lesser males, thus producing children- of which Shelob is one. Therefore, if we assume a similar disparity of power between Ungoliant and Shelob as between Shelob and her offspring, we get a pretty powerful being indeed. Personally, I should place Ungoliant just below the Balrogs- or possibly above, since the case could be made that it took all of them to drive her off, and that one of them couldn't have done so alone.
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03-31-2006, 04:27 PM | #104 | |
A Northern Soul
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Legolas; 03-31-2006 at 04:33 PM. |
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03-31-2006, 04:51 PM | #105 |
Haunting Spirit
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A number of notes:
1) In noting that all other species differentiate between a leader and all others generally, I think ENTS should be broken into ENTS and Treebeard, Treebeard's placing directly above all other Ents...small but somewhat (in)consequential 2) Why does Balin deserve placing above Thorin, whom for awhile he was subserviant to? 3) Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are very far apart on the list...again, what is the rationale? I think since they are both enigmas of Tolkien's work, they should be placed relatively close together... 4) Regarding the Ring and future placement of the Silmarils...I think one shouldn't place these on the list at all...the list looks to be one of living characters, the Ring may be considered the "essense" of Sauron, but thats still NOT Sauron...just as the Silmarils are the "embodiment" of the two trees, but they are not the two trees...if you include the two trees of valinor on this list, then yes, you should include the silmarils, and then by conjecture, you could include the Ring...but since I don't think there is any intention of including the two trees of Valinor (I personlly see this as silly), I think by the same logic you shouldn't include either of the other two...specifically, the Ring reflects the power that wields it (albiet with an evil/Sauron twist)...it isn't an entity unto itself... 5) Beren is listed lower than Aragorn? Aragorn may be the savior of Gondor, but Beren cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown...additionally, he was able to pass through the Girdle of Melian...he prowess seems a little low on the list
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." Last edited by Thalion; 03-31-2006 at 04:55 PM. |
03-31-2006, 08:33 PM | #106 | |||||||||
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Shelob is raised as recent arguments reflect. I'm debating with myself whether there's really a difference between Olórin and Gandalf the White. I'm not sure there is. Updated List |
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03-31-2006, 09:58 PM | #107 | |
Dread Horseman
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03-31-2006, 10:11 PM | #108 | |
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Here's how I would design the list: RED: [gods - Valar] *Melkor; *Manwe RED-ORANGE: [unknown] Ungoliante? Tom Bombadil? ORANGE: [angels - Maiar] *Eonwe; Arien; *Sauron; *Olorin; Melian; Curumo; Gothmog; Huan ORANGE: [demigods - Eldar] *Luthien; *Galadriel; *Feanor; Glorfindel; Ecthelion; Galdor? ORANGE: [creatures - Dragons and Others] *Ancalagon; Glaurung; Carcharoth; Smaug; Draugluin YELLOW: [heroes - Eldar, Atani, Dwarves] *Hurin; Turin; Tuor; Beren; Thrain; Aragorn GREEN: [the children - Elves, Men/Hobbits, Dwarves] Celeborn; Boromir; Legolas BLUE: [lesser humanoids - Orcs] BABY BLUE: [beasts] Colors indicate possible overlaps between categories. For example, Ungoliante might be considered more powerful than some Valar. Another example is Ancalagon and Glaurung being on par with the Maiar, perhaps. Rankings in each bracket are more or less approximate, except where marked by an asterisk, which indicates that the individual is fairly certainly in the correct position (usually the top positions of the tier). Obviously my list isn't as extensive as yours, but I don't necessarily think it should be. Some things go without saying, and many individuals are impossible to gauge. Last edited by obloquy; 04-01-2006 at 03:00 AM. |
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03-31-2006, 11:30 PM | #109 | ||
Itinerant Songster
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"Intelligence consists of (1) speech (2) tool usage (3) et cetera...." (1) speech: +0 for no speech; +1 for 1 to 1000 word vocab; +2 for 1000 to 10,000 word vocab, et cetera. (2) tool usage: +0 for none; +1 for 1 tool; +2 for two tools, etc. (3) ad nauseum..... blah. Quote:
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03-31-2006, 11:39 PM | #110 | |
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04-01-2006, 03:03 AM | #111 |
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Obloquy is correct that the Istari were a special form of Maiar Incarnate. Although all Ainur who descended into Arda had the power to take forms, which most did, it was natural for the Valar and Maiar to not be bound to a certain form. Indeed, the permanence of the forms of Morgoth, the Balrogs, and Sauron after the Fall of Númenor, appears to be tied directly to the fact that they are evil.
However, when the Valar sent the Istari to Middle-Earth, the Istari did not just take a form LIKE the Children of Eru, as they were accustomed to doing. Instead, they took a form that was the SAME as that of the Children of Eru. In so doing, they became, in a pure physical sense, old men. The only extraordinary thing about them was their incredible longevity. Apart from this, such special traits as they had, such as wisdom or a certain magical talent, while not exactly common, were still found in the Children of Eru- particularly those of Elven race. The power of the Istari is a veiled power- it is not the raw might of the Maiar. This was a part of the intention of the Valar, for they had learned well the great lesson of the Second Age: Men do not like to be forced to do things. Instead of being sent to Middle-Earth to lead the fight against Sauron, they were sent to HELP the fight against Sauron. For this reason, although Gandalf and Saruman may well, singly or together, have been able to take Sauron on in a battle as Maiar, once in Middle-Earth they were forced to work in more circuitous ways. Not all power was gone from them, to be sure, but they were rather tightly constricted in what they were able to do. That said, this entire plan of the Valar failed. Saruman turned to evil, the Blue Wizards vanished, Radagast was distracted, and Gandalf died. At this point Eru stepped in, and decided to make use of Gandalf. He restored him to full life, granted him authority previously given to Saruman, and returned him to Middle-Earth. It also seems apparent that he removed some of the restrictions that had formerly bound the Istari. As Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn, none of their weapons could harm him. Although this statement can be interpreted a number of ways, it seems clear that Gandalf was no longer a mere old man in terms of his physical presence. It seems clear that he had to keep himself, as before, rather in the background, aiding the fight rather than leading it, but it is also clear that many of the actions he undertakes as Gandalf the White he COULD not have undertaken as Gandalf the Grey. More importantly, neither could Saruman. This is important, because it demonstrates the changed parameters within Gandalf could move. Even as Gandalf the White, he was inherently, in his native Maia strength, probably no greater than Saruman- who had been appointed the White for good reason. However, he clearly seems to be able to operate under much less constraint than even Saruman had done under the original orders of the Istari. So, the question is, and I leave it to the debating teams to get the mental juices started, whether or not Gandalf the White returned to Middle-Earth able to use ANY and ALL of his native Maiarin powers, and chose not to (for whatever reasons), or whether he returned to Middle-Earth with authority to act more broadly than before, but still not in the freedom he would have enjoyed in Valinor. If the former is the case, then Gandalf the White and Olórin are one and the same in terms of power. If the latter, then Gandalf the White is a step above Gandalf the Grey and Saruman, but a step below Olórin.
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04-01-2006, 04:27 AM | #112 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree with everything Formendacil says, and he ties up much of the Gandalf/Maiar problem quite nicely. On the question of The Return of Gandalf, I believe Tolkien says, he returned with enhanced sanctity. Was this because the Valar had seen the fall of Saruman into evil, and Radagast become distracted, that they wished Gandalf to have more ability to combat these weakness's, in this case does sanctity mean free from sin?. Doesn't Tolkien say of The Istari: clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, maybe Gandalf the White returned with less of these problems to worry him, giving him more purity to his inherent power.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
04-01-2006, 11:35 AM | #113 | ||
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Here's some more reference on the topic: Ëalar and Incarnation The Ainur and their physical forms The Powers of the Istari gandalf and sarumon |
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04-01-2006, 01:38 PM | #114 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Who said he came came back less incarnate???????????
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
04-01-2006, 02:11 PM | #115 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-01-2006, 02:51 PM | #116 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 82
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Since Gandalf says specifically he represents "Saruman as he should have been", it seems that Gandalf the White still falls short of Olorin...Saruman as he should have been would not have shown his full might as that of a Mair...neither would then Gandalf the White...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
04-01-2006, 03:58 PM | #117 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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04-01-2006, 04:32 PM | #118 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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04-01-2006, 08:12 PM | #119 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
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Quote:
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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04-01-2006, 08:24 PM | #120 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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After reading the various well argued points on Gandalf the White as compared to Olórin, it seems to me that both manifestations should be represented. While I think Formendacil makes strong points in terms of Gandalf the White's status in terms of sanctity, it seems to me that Gandalf's own words to Aragorn and company clear up the matter.
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