WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Nogrod]

The way Kit posts is the reason I don't want her to get lynched. Actually I'm a bit jealous right now as she does what I tend to be doing normally. But I'm a bit out of energy right now and am not able to raise to her level of really going into it. I hope I will do better the next Days if alive.

But also I think there is an interesting discrepancy between the level of thought by the analyser and the analysed. I think Sally went on her own carefree manner making an early post she didn't think was nothing serious but just something to toy with while repeating her info about her situation in a jokeful manner. Then Kit makes this "serious-player move" (which I tend to do oftentimes myself - and which people should start doing on D2 the latest, everyone) analysing that post's indications into all their variable conclusions just over-analysing it into pieces Sally probably never had thought of herself (even if she was a baddie).

In a sloppy Day like this I think Kit is the last one to be lynched. We need more players like her, not less.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well for exactly that reason of course!!! So if you make a show of not knowing the rules I think it may be a wolf trying to created the impression of innocence "I don't know hte rules so I can't be anyone important". It proved ot be the case a few times back in the day so it was to me worth commenting on..it isn't a sophisticated strategy I admit.. but at that stage of the day there wasn't an awful lot to go on.

Oh yes, I see. Well, I wouldn't say however that it was a "show" - it was related to some votes and it seemed like a rather random addendum. In my opinion, making a show of not knowing the rules would look different - more like "hey, so tell me please, how was it with the Ranger, actually?" Or whatever... But anyway, I see now where you were coming from.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

The more Sally speaks though, the more I wonder. She's just rambled for a lot of posts.

Well, I think that really goes for very many people around here, and so I don't see it applying to Sally in particular in any case. Although other things you say about sally might be more valid, possibly, but generally I am not really that much suspecting her.

Update on Nog - he seems more like his innocent self this far, I think (this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).

Hey!

Maybe I'm on a "detached senior statesman mood" today?

But to be honest, no, I don't have any clear ideas on what's right or wrong, but I do see some patterns emerging that take place time and time again. Like that people will stuck into talking about the first one or two people the talk starts revolving around and in the end there's little other possibilities but to vote them as nothing else has been discussed.

I mean if there is something really suspicious that starts the discussion, then that is just fair, but most often that is not the case and an innocent gets lynched because of these game-dynamics.

Which is not to say I think or know that Sally and/or Bom are innocents. They just feel more like it than not at the moment.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?



You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

There's the post in question. I can't believe how much attention it's garnered; and I would also say that if it was made by a regular player everyone would skip over it. The last line is, to my mind at least, pretty funny.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Sally is innocent I'll eat my own hat.

As long as you don't eat mine. I'm quite fond of it.


The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.

Perhaps it's just that I'm having a long day, but I think Kit's grasping at straws. Well, I suppose I shouldn't say grasping at straws, but she's putting a LOT of stock in what I've already said was a social experiment. (Granted, the statements I made in that post were true, but I made them in such a way that people would have little choice but to respond to them, thus allowing me to gauge their reactions and, as a result, their guilt.) Then again, it's Day One, and all the suspicion of Bom is based on equally unsound reasons, so whatever.


I have a duck talking to me. I should probably deal with that.


x'd since....since Nog's post about Bom, which I'll get to in a bit

[satansaloser2005]

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.

[Loslote]

I'm here! And I have First Impressions.

Sally is probably my dear sweet cupcake, and I would not like to lynch her toDay at all.

Bom is a dear sweet newish player who, from what little he's posted, sounds like last game when he was innocent. I'd like to leave him be, too.

Galadriel's posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish, but it's her first game ever, so she gets a newbie pass out of the category of "say what now".

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

The rest of you I've got no real impressions on yet. More noise-making, please!

Edit: Xed with two Sallys

[Thinlómien]

Bom Tombadillo - creating a lot of controversy. I don't know what to make of his fishy jump on Sally, but on the whole it feels more like a new player attracting suspicion in the oh-so-typical newbie manner...

Nogrod - seems to be making sense this far, but seems a little uptight and cautious - but I'm ready to attribute that to RL stuff for the time being.

Shasta - says little, ergo I can say little about him.

Kitanna - for once, I don't quite get where all the Kitanna-suspicion is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she seems sensible enough. I wouldn't like to lynch her toDay - it would be a poor thanks for beasically keep the discussion going on toDay.

G55 - wouldn't believe it's her first game, she's so sharp. Can't say if she's good or evil though.

Sally - well, I can't see why she has been made such a fuss of toDay. I'm more inclined to think she's innocent than not (I seem to recall she only makes such a show of her innocence when she's innocent) but of course this is not foolproof reasoning.

Eomer - no idea yet. Seems annoyingly self-confident but that's just typical I guess.

Nerwen - can't recall anything she said, which is a little worrisome.

Loslote - see above, except that I recall her flirting with Nilp.

Greenie - seems more innocent than not, but that might be just because her comment about flip-flopping made me happy.

Nilp - I'm wondering whether I want to start the debate about the meaning of Nilp's lack of self-vote... I would be happy if he had just finally changed his playing style a little.

Mithalwen - can't say much yet either.

Legate - sensible enough, however this doesn't mean much.


Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.


edit: xed with everything
edit2: in fact didn't crosspost with anything that was on the previous page, sorry!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.



But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

Very likely of being baddies:
-Bom
-Kit

Edit: xed with Sally

G55, this is the most suspicious thing yet posted. (Welcome to WW, by the way )

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

[Mithalwen]

Show may be too strong a word but I was trying to make the distinction that querying the rules is not necessarily a genuine enquiry - especially when there are admin threads - and indeed pms for that sort of the thing. There is a difference between asking (faux-) naif questions about things that can be learned easily by reading the start of the thread and for example, in our current situation of wondering what significance the Ranger twist might have. It certainly could make a difference, btw, particularly in a relatively small village - and there is a good chance of it coming in to play since someone the Ranger prioritises to protect is quite likely to be a wolf priority.

So some things belong on Admin threads others on game threads. That was the point of them originally. Not a hard and fast rule - and I am not having a pop at Nogrod on that score - I have cited RL at times I know . Saying I am having a bad day is again different to announcing the game should be played to one players schedule. But maybe I am just a grouchy and irritable old woman.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

I'm hoping she's just being a newbie and has picked me to latch onto for the game. I know I'll have to keep an extra close eye on her, as I tend to forget about people who seem to agree with me, and that can be quite the fatal mistake.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, I see where Mith's coming from when she says that asking about the rules can be an attempt to look naive and innocent. I'm not saying that's what's been done here, but I do understand her point (as well as the counterpoint that people with roles must understand the rules to perform well).

[Mithalwen]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

[Thinlómien]

Nogrod goes up for thinking more or less exactly the same as me.

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

Thanks dear :P

++Sally
My hat I say!

I have to go now. Best of luck to the village for the rest of today.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.

That's not actually what I'm saying.

The wolves need to lie, right? The goodies can speak true, right?

Now find out a wolf and a baddie amongst the following personas:

1) a baddie who says nothing
2) a goodie who says nothing
3) a baddie who talks a lot and argues a lot - and needs to lie most of the time
4) a goodie that talks a lot and argues a lot - and can be true all the time (even if s/he can err)

It's clear getting the baddie of character 1) is just a random chance (and a poor one at that as people too seldom agree to lynch a submarine player - thus creating the place for the wolves to win in unsportsmanlike style.)

Also a goodie of type b) just make this game harder for us other gooidies (so they should be regarded as traitors I'd say if I'd be harsher, but as the agreeable person I am, I just call them sissies).

But a baddie of type 3) can be caught with logic, argumentation, you name it! And even if there are great risks in finding out a goodie of type 4) from a baddie of type 3) - that pocess is something we call playing werewolf. Anyone could cast random votes with their dices at home alone if that was fun...

So therefore whehter Kitanna is good or bad is a lesser thing toDay as there is no clear evidence she is bad - as she makes cases she can be scrutinised by them later - unlike those who just "hey, need to hunt some werewolf, plese you others post, bye".

Heh, I'm feeling nostalgic. I haven't made this rant in years (really Mith, you must believe me - I think I was this way all the time when we used to play a many games a long time ago - maybe it's you who are bringing this reaction from me after a long time? ). And I'm actually not too keen to continue pressing it. But just as answer to you Sally; the issue is more complicated...

Funny, I thought you would have played that many games you would have seen all that Sally?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh, we have to highlight our votes, don't we? Haven't done this in a while so let's just see if I can remember....

Yes. Good. Um... as you were.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

++Galadriel55

So you'll remember me forever as the first person ever to vote for you in Werewolf. Har!

Seriously: too much defending of Sally, too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna. I think there's something lupine with this one!

[satansaloser2005]

Ah. My apologies, sir Nog. As long as you're not using that argument to keep Kit (or anyone else) around just because she tickles your ears (and using it indefinitely), I don't have a problem with it. Indeed, I agree with you, but we must remember that baddies can be golden-tongued and that we need to keep an eye on them as much as on the submarines.

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?


I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Loslote

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf.

[Mithalwen]

It does have a certain familiar ring but the main thing I associate with you is ranting about people voting at the last minute when you always vote at the last minute yourself And the last time we played was Rikae's game which maybe shouldn't be dwellt on. But it is common sense. Frothy posting can be irritating but it may be the froth conceals something substantial - as with a Macchiato

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'm here! And I have First Impressions.

Sally is probably my dear sweet cupcake, and I would not like to lynch her toDay at all.

Bom is a dear sweet newish player who, from what little he's posted, sounds like last game when he was innocent. I'd like to leave him be, too.

Galadriel's posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish, but it's her first game ever, so she gets a newbie pass out of the category of "say what now".

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

The rest of you I've got no real impressions on yet. More noise-making, please!

Edit: Xed with two Sallys

I would second what Lommy said: What kind of impressions is that? Noting one person who was discussed this far the most (also with very thoughtful words; thanks, if you keep using such a deep and thoughtful reasoning, I might soon get lost in all the complicated definitions you make), two newbies to say that they are newbies, and one person who had been the "voice of suspicion" a bit on this thread, while concluding that there isn't much to say in the end.

Lottie might be just as well my first possibility for a vote - I mean, really, this is coming and saying nothing. More commitment would be nice in any case, anyway.

Lommy seems like nothing wrong this far, maybe except for these two:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Kitanna - for once, I don't quite get where all the Kitanna-suspicion is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she seems sensible enough. I wouldn't like to lynch her toDay - it would be a poor thanks for beasically keep the discussion going on toDay.

(...)

Sally - well, I can't see why she has been made such a fuss of toDay. I'm more inclined to think she's innocent than not (I seem to recall she only makes such a show of her innocence when she's innocent) but of course this is not foolproof reasoning.

Just so that the first one sounds a bit like bloodthirsty "let's keep her around, she will continue making a fuss and people will be getting lynched" and the second could also be a "I don't suspect her... but if you lynch her, I don't mind" - however that's the worst possible interpretation, and in general I don't think she sounds like having evil intentions in truth.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, I see where Mith's coming from when she says that asking about the rules can be an attempt to look naive and innocent. I'm not saying that's what's been done here, but I do understand her point (as well as the counterpoint that people with roles must understand the rules to perform well).

Is that a postscriptum of something you didn't manage to write in your previous post and remembered later that you should say it, or what is the reason of you posting this? (Separately?) Just askin'.

EDIT: x-ed after Kit's vote.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

I didn't say otherwise. But she has provided some proper analysis not just lists saying I can't decide about x... and she seems to have had an effect on you. If you were a horse there would be a stewards enquiry after that change of form. Just sayin.... Two hours left so time to read through in the light of the relative flood of posts....and votes.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf.

And I have nothing better to go on, even after another read-through...yeah, yeah, but I'll still feel sorry for her if she's lynched her first Day ever.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I rather don't like how she tries to make a simple omission look evil, and with an argumentative tone...it's not like she's wolf-hunting, more like wolf-inventing.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?

And here she seems to be trying to on one hand convince us that her earlier posts were reasonable, and on the other continue to further the point she'd made in it. I don't know, I might be wrong on this one, but that's what it looks like to me.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Kit, I see what you mean about Sally being cobblerish - the "center of attention". But she does not sound like a wolf.

This isn't so much a point against her as a question - I thought we didn't have a cobbler. Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...

Edit: Xed with Mith

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Is that a postscriptum of something you didn't manage to write in your previous post and remembered later that you should say it, or what is the reason of you posting this? (Separately?) Just askin'.

I remembered that I'd meant to say it before, and had spaced it off. That's all.




Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.


I also wish Bom would come back. I want to know his take on this a bit more before I decide (although as I've said he's certainly not my top pick right now).


EDIT: x'd with Lottie. And no, there's no cobbler, sweetie.

[Nogrod]

Now this is an interesting developement.

I have been more or less uneasy with the way most people say how G55 makes so much sense. I've had a feeling she makes a lot of sense but that I also thought she was making comments that were against a well-informed goodie she seemed to be. I thought of letting it go (not going back to check the details and try to see if there was a case there) as it's her first game - and I'm not actually wishing to lynch her on D1 whatever the case - unless it can be shown believably that she is actually a wolf. I mean there is something in the traditions we should honour.

But these latest do give oneself some food for thought.

Lottie comes out in the open totally against the general outspoken mood saying she actually suspects G55.

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates.

We made this a useful D1 after all. Hurray!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

And you've clearly not yet seen the post in which I agree with him about how creepy it is. Do pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you cry wolf, okay, dear?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I didn't say otherwise. But she has provided some proper analysis not just lists saying I can't decide about x... and she seems to have had an effect on you. If you were a horse there would be a stewards enquiry after that change of form. Just sayin....

This actually is valid. That makes me also think rather good about Mith, for some reason, it sounds, well, innocentish to phrase it this way as well.

Okay, I don't get Lottie's case for G55. First, I am sure there would be far more better subjects. Second, it seems like diverting suspicion to other corners of the playground.

Originally Posted by Loslote

This isn't so much a point against her as a question - I thought we didn't have a cobbler. Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...

I didn't get this part - the first part. Secondly, now that sounds like what Mith called making a show of not knowing the rules. This is the case in which I concur - this is a good example of what I would call making a show of it, not what TomBom did. Hm, I think I know whom I am going to vote, really - Lottie seems really weird here.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I remembered that I'd meant to say it before, and had spaced it off. That's all.

Okay, fine, thanks, just curious.

Originally Posted by sally

Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.

Funny - this is about the first thing I find suspicious about Sally in the way she said something. More like the latter part. I have been many times in the situation of when somebody was backing me up when I was a Wolf, so I know the feeling well (and also many times did the same thing as a Wolf, that I have backed up someone), but saying "I don't like how somebody is backing me up" is also a thing to do when you are a Wolf. I've done that a few times. But anyway, that is a random occurance - like I said, I don't have any other suspicions for sally.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Sally

[satansaloser2005]

Eomer in a warg shell....

Says we have a "careful village" and that talk for the sake of talk is useless.
Mentions Galadriel's tendency to defend me.
Tells me I always look like a cobbler.
Talks about pigeons.
Describes the sudden jump on Stealth Yellowboots as "bewildering."
Sees the humor in Bom's "suspicious" post, and doesn't see why people are making such a big deal of it.
Calls Galadriel out on her defense of me and her suspicion of Bom and Kit.
Votes for Galadriel for the reasons listed above.
"Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf."


He seems fine to me, balanced and logical as well as picking up on the humor where people intend for it to be found. While I don't agree with him on Kit, I'm thinking that he's not a wolf, or if so, not a wolf with her. I can't possibly disagree with him on Galadriel because, well, what he says is so true. My hesitation is brought about by her newness and the likelihood that her "guilt" is just newbie mistakes, which is why I am hesitant to follow his vote.


I'll have to think on this for a bit, but I need to go soon, so I'll see what else I have to say before I leave.


EDIT: x'd since my last, bolding

[Nogrod]

I x'posted with this...

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.

Say what you say Sally, but that actually fits what I was saying in my earlier post. If there was a connection between you two and you felt you both were gathering suspicion partly because of it, then you should try to do away with the connection.


Heh...

Originally Posted by Sally

And you've clearly not yet seen the post in which I agree with him about how creepy it is. Do pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you cry wolf, okay, dear?

I had not seen that post of yours (quoted here in my post earlier) at that time, but as you see, I was actually responding to that even before you asked me. And I was making a quite different interpretation of it than the one you offer.

Oh my Sally, have you got lost from the path of the pure-hearted ones? I was not "crying wolf", but I have a feeling you just did it yourself... I was talking about there being parties, not that one of them is guilty.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Bom

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

I think, especially due to that last sentence, that this post was mostly a joke by Bom. What bothers me about it is that it also looked like he was using this joke-post to prep for an easy vote on Sally today.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

1) Why would you bring attention to this, if true?
2) Survival only to have to drop out/be modkilled later? Try again.
3) Sally is many things, but foolish isn't one of them. Hmm.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

And so I declared shenanigans on this idea earlier. If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night.

What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won. And the second part of this quote seems rather redundant, unless you're saying the wolves won't try to get her lynched... in which case, why would you say that when you're the one saying she's suspicious?

I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive. And this -

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night."

- may be pulling a Lottie, but struck me as rather over-the-top.

I'm unsure what to think of Sally at this point. This -

Originally Posted by Sally

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.


Ain't life grand?



And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)

Possibly evil (by basis of record):
Nilp
Mith
Nerwen
Kit
Lottie

Possibly evil (by basis of being insane):
Everyone

- has elements of both ordo-Sally and wolf-Sally in it; she's flippant and sarcastic in her defense, but she's also quick to revenge-accuse Kitanna.

Originally Posted by Gala

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

One post does not a pushing attempt make, I don't think. I would like to see Bom comment on his post, though.

Originally Posted by Gala

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.

I do agree with this, though. Kit brings up the Sally-vote in a showcase-like manner, then suspects Bom for starting it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gala

But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

This could be a bit too much assumption on your part, though, Gala. It's really hard to predict what wolves will do in any given situation - it truly depends on the wolf. I'm not convinced that Kit and Bom are both wolves together, either.

Greenie, you've called Nerwen "careful" and "neutral" twice now. Do you suspect her, or not?

Originally Posted by Gala

Kit wouldn't set so many arguments against him (with which personally I agree) if he was her packmate. It's too much of a risk.

She absolutely would, especially on Day 1 when it's unlikely he'll be voted for being "new-ish". Wolf-on-wolfing is an extremely common tactic among wolves.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.

Bom has only made one action to speak of. This seems like it's jumping the gun a bit.

Originally Posted by Mith

I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.

I basically agree with everything said here.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Overruled, Mith. There were pigeons and, what's more, the promise of pigeons yet to appear.

I think you're a pigeon! I do, however, agree with you about the jump on Bom.

Originally Posted by Legate

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. (Although, in my opinion, everybody should read the rules carefully to be able to operate properly in his or her own role - even ordos, so that they can judge well what's going on and what are the options... but for WWs and Gifteds it is necessary, because e.g. you cannot play a Ranger without knowing how this role works, and a Wolf should know that as well, so that they know how they should plan their Night-kills in regards to there being other roles which can hinder them and so on...)

Can we just... not go down this road? 'Kay, thanks. (See - Lottie.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On another quick note. As I just skimmed through what had happened the last I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him.

This, also, I agree with.

Re Lommy at #79 - I don't think I've ever seen Lommy so decisive! Especially on Day 1! Something to consider...

Originally Posted by Sally[/b

The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.

Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.

Hee hee.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

Really, oh pigeon? Suspecting Sally and then suspecting Bom for suspecting Sally seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Originally Posted by Sally

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?

I'm doing a composite post. Shush.

[satansaloser2005]

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.


x'd with Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

Interesting observation, really. A good one, but I am really not putting that much into the G55 situation. G55 really seems rather sensible to me this far.

Although of course, being thrown into your first game as a Wolf might force you to sharpen your skills to the most (I could talk - I had such an experience in my first game), so that might be what stands behind her surprisingly good reasoning this far... but then maybe it is also just stalking WW threads for too long (as I believe she had been doing)...

EDIT: x-ed since my last. Ah, people seem to be on dope, good. Posts falling from the very sky...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Heh... I had not seen that post of yours (quoted here in my post earlier) at that time, but as you see, I was actually responding to that even before you asked me.

Heh, heh, heh. I figured you hadn't seen it yet, and couldn't resist the opportunity to give you a (very) hard time. *blows a kiss*

Shasta! Darling! You're back!


x'd with Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

Funny - this is about the first thing I find suspicious about Sally in the way she said something.

I actually tend to agree with you. I do find it odd that Sally never mentions suspecting Gala until after first Lottie, then Eomer mention it, then uses their reasoning to say "oh, by the way, I suspect her too!" Hmm.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.


x'd with Nog

You would, of course, say this as a wolf, darling.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won.

Flipping this. I have an Excel chart to prove it. >.<

Originally Posted by Shasta, to me

Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

But she's suspecting Bom for suspecting me, then suspecting me herself. I really should have been clearer about that, shouldn't I? Oh well. I just mean that suspecting the person who suspects the person you're suspecting doesn't make any sense. Just like that last sentence.



x'd with Shasta

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

You would, of course, say this as a wolf, darling.

Oh, I totally would. It doesn't make it any less true though.