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06-04-2011, 03:27 PM | #161 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Hobbit, There or Thereabouts, The Quest of Errorbore
In the Battle of the Five Armies I expect to see the Beornings attack en masse in a type of Twilight Attack of the Were-bears (distant ancestors of The Care Bears). Or will they be a Swedish naturist colony run by Bjorn the Bare.....
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06-04-2011, 06:37 PM | #162 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Those fiendish Swedish Naturalist allies Gandalf met galloping up from
Dol Guldur (now you know why he was distracted ). They'll have some Swedish naturalist babes distract the orcs while the dwarves swipe away at the poor orcsees naughty bits! PJ's gonna have trouble getting a PG-13 rating in the U.S.
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06-05-2011, 02:40 AM | #163 |
Haunting Spirit
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This much for sure
I really don't know what the two upcoming Hobbit films will contain other than one each of Peter Jackson's self-indulgent cameos. However otherwise perfect, these movies will contain at least these guaranteed and needless blemishes.
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06-05-2011, 09:26 AM | #164 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Don't forget the cameos by the bug eyed moppets who are probably spotty and surly adolescents now...
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06-05-2011, 01:03 PM | #165 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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He does love his explosions and immature bits of ghastliness, doesn't he? The fact is, other than LotR, PJ is a B-grade director of campy horror flicks. Which is why I was so disappointed when Del Toro got the hint early on and left the film, because his vision of fantasy is decidedly more elegant than the bombast of Jackson. Although Del Toro is too much of a gentleman to admit it, I am sure PJ's efforts to dumb down the plot (much like in LotR) was a deciding factor in Del Toro leaving.
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06-05-2011, 02:32 PM | #166 |
Pile O'Bones
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Del Toro must have been a real optimist if he thought PJ would actually allow him to "direct" The Hobbit. I have to confess it is my least favourite of Tolkien's writings .... my only real curiosity is how Smaug will be represented. I'm a bit of a dragon fanatic.
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06-07-2011, 01:51 AM | #167 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Elegant Simplicity Revisited and Revised
Quote:
2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II).In other words, little Bilbo Baggins found the Ring -- or the Ring found him. Then Bilbo returned with the Ring to the Shire -- or the Ring escaped from underneath the Misty Mountains. Everything else that happened in Middle-earth during that one year concerned the geopolitical machinations of Wizards vs Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer. As Gandalf said to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit: "You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"Yes, The Hobbit tells the linear tale of the "little fellow" and one could leave it that -- as the children's magic adventure narrative originally published in 1937. But Professor Tolkien did not leave it at that, and instead revisited and rewrote key parts of The Hobbit so that it would fit appropriately into the story of "the wide world" as well. Consequently, one finds references to both the Necromancer and his stronghold at Dol Guldur in the very first chapter of The Hobbit: "An Unexpected Party," and the final chapter, "The Last Stage." So, I don't think one can accurately maintain that Professor Tolkien "didn't even waste words" on the White Council, Dol Guldor, and the Necromancer, by which he understood the larger Manichean struggle between Good and Evil that backgrounds the charming story of Bilbo Baggins' atypical -- for a hobbit -- adventure. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings has a wealth of information dealing with Gandalf's strategy for using the Dwarves of the Iron Hills as a counterbalance to Sauron who might use Smaug the Dragon to possibly attack the Elves in Rivendell. Here, Gandalf's "chance meeting" between Gandalf and Thorin at Bree shows how Gandalf appeals to the Dwarves' notorious craving for vengeance as well as their greed for treasure. In this larger strategy, the Dragon Smaug figures only as a possible weapon that needs neutralizing in the North while the main struggle against Sauron takes place elsewhere. Bilbo and the Dwarves, therefore, have their parts to play, but the larger picture remains essentially hidden from their limited perspectives. In short, Peter Jackson has a wealth of genuine Tolkien material to exploit if he wishes to do so. Everything will hinge on whether he brings Tolkien's world to life -- both microcosm and macrocosm -- or falls willing victim to hackneyed Hollywood cliches, latest-and-greatest computer graphics gimicks, and fanboy slaughter extravaganzas to give Orlando Bloom something to do in a story that doesn't need him.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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06-07-2011, 02:17 AM | #168 |
Haunting Spirit
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A Chance Meeting in Middle-earth
Just as a follow-up for those who may not have read Tolkien's background history of the Dwarves in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings, I've excerpted below that portion which explains the significance of Smaug the Dragon in Gandalf's larger geopolitical strategy vis-a-vis Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer. Not for nothing does the Wizard and a pack of wandering Dwarves show up unexpectedly at Bag End looking for the accomplished burglar rumored to live there:
But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time, Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there a while.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
06-07-2011, 07:06 AM | #169 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Quote:
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06-07-2011, 07:26 AM | #170 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Quote:
When you state that Tolkien "revisited and rewrote key parts of The Hobbit so that it would fit appropriately into the story [LotR]", that is, of course, true. Here is an excellent site that does a side-by-side analysis of the actual emendations: http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html It is of note that the majority of edits deal solely with a single chapter, "Riddles in the Dark", and revolve around one character, Gollum. When Tolkien set about to rewrite The Hobbit in 1960, he eventually abandoned the project, as any wholesale revision would ultimately eliminate the humor and inherent enchanting nature of the story. Therefore, we have a few, short summarizations of other events that happened during Bilbo's adventure, and a chapter in Unfinished Tales ("The Quest of Erebor") which is under copyright by Christopher Tolkien and cannot be used in the film. Therein lies my abhorrence for grafting the "White Council" sequences to The Hobbit. A skeletal summation of other events does not a canonical plot make, particularly when referring to the sub-par fan-fictionalizations of Peter Jackson. Based on The Marring of the Ring films, there is ample justification for my loathing this addition. Simply put, when Peter Jackson strayed from Tolkien's original intent and plot, the movies suffered. I could offer up a litany of such character assassinations, ****-poor dialogue and film sequences for special effect's sake, but that dead horse has been flogged beyond a bloody pulp and has been analyzed down to an equine cellular level. Is there an opportunity to exploit brief summaries for larger aggrandizements? Certainly, the vampire has been invited into the room, and a word-wraith such as Jackson has evidently had this in mind all along. But it will be fan-fiction. And based on PJ's previous fan-fiction, he certainly will not be selected for a Middle-earth Fanfiction Award (MEFA). You, yourself, have bemoaned the mere mention of that Xenarwenish character, Itaril. One can already picture the shield-surfing contest between her and Orlandolas.
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06-07-2011, 08:06 PM | #171 |
Haunting Spirit
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The Simple and the Safe
Thank you for your lengthy reply, Morthorond. I did not find it at all tedious. And I fully appreciate your paranoia regarding Peter Jackson and his "Bad Taste" proclivities. As the old saying goes: "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that real people aren't out to get me!"
However, at the risk of seeming pedantic, I would like to reiterate my somewhat modest contention that film renditions of Tolkien's own references in the published texts do not necessarily constitute "fan fiction" as would, for awful example, the completely invented and ludicrous elf-chick security guard "Itaril" secretly in love with a young Elf lord while simultaneously kicking butt and taking names all over the place for no comprehensible reason. Again though, as concerns what Tolkien specifically wrote about the White Council and the Necromancer: From The Hobbit, Chaper One: "An Unexpected Party": "'I don't understand,' said Thorin, and Bilbo felt he would like to say the same. The explanation did not seem to explain.From The Hobbit, Chaper Nineteen: "The Last Stage": "… but every now and again [Bilbo] would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the story which he did not yet know came in.It seems to me from the textual evidence that Tolkien fully intended these references to matters above and beyond the immediate concerns of Bilbo and the dwarves, and if the upcoming Hobbit films make use of this material, they have defensible reasons for doing so without necessarily committing fan-fiction heresy. As for what Tolkien wrote about the changes that he made to Chapter Five, "Riddles in the Dark," I'll address those in another comment. Suffice it to say at this point that featuring Christopher Lee as Saruman -- hoodwinking Gandalf and the High Elves as to his ultimate allegiances and purposes -- does not constitute "fan fiction" in the slightest. Therefore, I have no up-front objections to the White Council and Necromancer having a suitable -- although subordinate -- place in support of Bilbo Baggins' excellent adventure. Keeping things simple and safe: Christopher Lee -- Yes; Orlando Bloom -- No!
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
06-07-2011, 08:16 PM | #172 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Quote:
I mean, Legolas was already born then, and he could have taken some part in the Battle of 5 Armies, even though he wasn't mentioned in TH (because he didn't exist as a character at that time yet). Orlando just takes out all the spirit out of that character, though. But Itaril!... urgh. It's not even a proper Tolkien name! There was Idril, and there was Itarille. So maybe: Legolas - possssssibly Oldando Bloom - DEAR GOD NO! Saoirse Ronan - *runs away from movie theatre*
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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06-07-2011, 09:08 PM | #173 |
Haunting Spirit
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The purloined cliché
Just an interesting (to me) aside about the vampire invitation business that you mention: It seems only too obvious that Professor Tolkien ripped off Bram Stoker's Dracula (1897) for that scene in The Two Towers (1954) where Smeagol-Gollum crawls "head first" down a rock precipice -- "like a nasty crawling spider on a wall" -- following Frodo and Sam, just as Jonathan Harker had witnessed the Count emerging from a window over a "dreadful abyss" and then crawling "face down" the sides of the castle, "just as a lizard moves along a wall."
As much as we love to give Peter Jackson deserved grief for his use of purloined film clichés, it only seems fair to note where literary authors such as Professor Tolkien have succumbed to the same temptation.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
06-07-2011, 11:13 PM | #174 |
Haunting Spirit
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A separate thread already exists for disparaging -- and dispensing with -- this dreadfully stupid fan-fiction abomination. And since the teenage actress most mentioned for the role has publicly announced that she will not take part in The Hobbit movies, then perhaps we have mercifully escaped the execrable ...
As for Legolas, Tolkien first mentions him at "The Council of Elrond" (Book II, Chapter Two of The Fellowship of the Ring): "[Elrond] then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before. There was a younger dwarf at Glóin's side: his son Gimli. ... There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves in Northern Mirkwood."Legolas -- although non-existent as a character in The Hobbit -- first has a role to play in The Lord of the Rings by bringing up some unwelcome news: "Alas! alas!" cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. "The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped."Now, if Peter Jackson seizes upon Tolkien's use of the pronoun "you" (in the singular) as meaning Legolas personally and not just the Mirkwood Elves in general, then Gimli's father Glóin could have had dealings with Prince Legolas previously, say, in getting arrested in Mirkwood Forest for the crime of disturbing the elves at their merry-making. Thin. Pretty damn thin, but some Elf has to bag the dwarves in the forest and haul them before King Thranduil and then off to their dungeon cells. Why not Prince Legolas himself? Thus, Peter Jackson could imaginatively claim that Tolkien did, after all, use the word "you" in reference to Legolas in The Fellowship and that therefore, extrapolating backwards to The Hobbit film, Orlando Bloom can have something to do in the movie -- aside from the wind-up fan-boy Orc slashing thing, of course. Just saying ...
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee Last edited by TheMisfortuneTeller; 06-08-2011 at 10:18 AM. |
06-11-2011, 01:54 PM | #175 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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06-25-2011, 10:01 AM | #176 |
Blithe Spirit
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First stills of Hobbit film
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06-25-2011, 10:10 AM | #177 |
Gruesome Spectre
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He just doesn't look very Hobbit-like to me. Where's the abdominal fat? And what's with the "Dwarf-pattern baldness" in the first pic?
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06-25-2011, 11:28 AM | #178 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Seems not stout and aged enough for a middle-aged petit bourgois
gentlehobbit. But I see PJ probably got ahold of a picture of the postcard that inspired JRRT about Galdalf.
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06-25-2011, 04:33 PM | #179 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Don't remember Elijah Wood having a lot of that in the LOTR films... the feet look insanely big
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06-25-2011, 08:44 PM | #180 |
Gruesome Spectre
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True. At least the inconsistency is consistent.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
07-05-2011, 08:36 AM | #181 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I've just read in Empire magazine that Jackson will be filming Gandalf AND Elrond scouting the dungeons of Dol Guldur......I always thought it was Gandalf alone who did this.....can anyone shed any light on where he got that from. Gandalf finds Thrain in the dungeons and is given the map and key....the first time Elrond sees this map is when they stay at Rivendell so Elrond can't have been on that trip....the only thing I can think of is maybe prior to the White Council attack?
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07-05-2011, 11:00 AM | #182 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Gandalf went to Dol Guldur alone. But agent Elrond has to have some important role in the movies!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
07-08-2011, 08:34 AM | #183 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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07-08-2011, 08:50 AM | #184 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Quote:
And what happened to the colourful cloaks?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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07-08-2011, 01:25 PM | #185 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Dudes, it's PJ. I'm surprised half the dwarves weren't made female
(with fake beards because dwarves just want to protect/hide their women). Oops, hope PJ and friends don't read that. Might give them ideas.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
07-08-2011, 02:01 PM | #186 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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No surprises.
Quote:
Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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07-08-2011, 05:41 PM | #187 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Yes...but Nori looks like he has a star implanted in his head...
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07-09-2011, 01:39 AM | #188 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Dwarf women have beards... and I think it is a hat.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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07-09-2011, 06:21 AM | #189 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Book of Mazarbul?
Has anyone else noticed what Ori is holding.......... he is credited by Gimli as the writer of some of the script in that book (I'm not saying this is that book), looks like someone on the staff of this film has done a little homework though.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
07-09-2011, 07:36 AM | #190 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
"Dear diary, today I told Dís her beard glittered in the sunlight like snow on Zirakzigil. She picked me up and threw me headfirst into the wall. How I love her!"
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07-09-2011, 07:47 AM | #191 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Quote:
Made me think: what if PJ will show the Dwarven "peaceful times"? With the full poplation?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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07-09-2011, 09:07 AM | #192 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
was that his excuse for actually having female dwarves in Thorin and Co. (and the narrator of The Hobbit not noticing) was that female dwarves don't really have beards but started that tale to deceive non-dwarves. I mean, the guy who had Aragorn disappear in TTT until a horse woke him up, the Ents vote against attacking Isengard, the green slime at Minas Tirith making the charge of the Rohirrim pointless would have a problem with switching dwarf genders? And what was the REAL reason Thorin never married? Hmm?
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 07-09-2011 at 09:12 AM. |
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07-09-2011, 09:21 AM | #193 |
Pilgrim Soul
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He was an arrogant and pompous git and dwarf women were too spoilt for choice and sensible to be impressed by the idea of being Queen Consort of a realm currently occupied by a large and fierce dragon? As my granny used to say "I wouldn't have him if his hair hung with diamonds"
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
07-14-2011, 07:04 AM | #194 |
Pile O'Bones
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More pics of the dwarves being released daily...
So far images of 10 of the dwarves have been released over the past few days...
here's a composite shot of the gang from IMDb http://i53.tinypic.com/28sy4vn.jpg From L-R Nori, Ori, Dori, Oin, Gloin, Fili, Kili, Bombur, Bofur, Bifur
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07-14-2011, 07:58 AM | #195 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Fili and Kili don't look very alike for brothers..
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
07-14-2011, 10:40 AM | #196 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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They must be fraternal.
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07-14-2011, 02:54 PM | #197 |
Shady She-Penguin
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Oh my goodness - Ori, Dori and Oin are pretty cool, Bombur is eww, Bofur looks like a lumberjack and Kili is way too good-looking and beardless for a dwarf!
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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07-14-2011, 03:08 PM | #198 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I am now refusing to refer to most of them by their names....there is StarDwarf, BeardNecklace, Turli, ect....
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07-14-2011, 03:46 PM | #199 |
Dread Horseman
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Yeah, I can understand the impulse to try to make each dwarf visually distinctive when you're trying to juggle thirteen of the buggers, but there is only one word that applies to most of these designs, and that word is overworked. What's up with the triangle-do, first and foremost? And exactly what is that disgusting loop of hair necklace? "Nori" appears to have cornrows, and "Gloin" has such complicated beard jewelry/braiding that he makes Jack Sparrow look like a piker. Not feeling this, as the kids say.
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07-14-2011, 06:12 PM | #200 | |
Messenger of Hope
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Quote:
All in all, they really don't look the way I imagined the dwarves. Are there any pictures of Thorin yet? -- Folwren
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