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Old 04-03-2001, 06:53 PM   #1
Mithrandir
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Probebly a very simple question, but why does Tolkien refer to orcs as goblins in the Hobbit? And why do the two act so differently between the books? I mean, in the Hobbit, the goblins were not as mean and nasty and vicious as the orcs in LotR. Any good answers?

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Old 04-03-2001, 11:17 PM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

actually me think that Goblins are a sub-race of Orcs just as the Uruks are.... or even as the Moriquendi &amp; caliquendi! <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> me think Goblins live mostly in the Misty Mountains area, and the Orcs are more or less drawn towards Mordor. (this only me own opinion)if me was not so sleepy me could expand on this post but maby later.<img src=redface.gif ALT=":O"> ~Thoughts of a Moriquendi Bard~

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Old 04-04-2001, 12:21 AM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

Tolkien wrote The Hobbit before he decided to relate it to Silm. based stories I think. Goblins very well could be a type of orc also, maybe a smaller type. But the best way to look at it is that Bilbo didn't really know what an orc was, being relatively shut out from the rest of the world. So when he wrote the Red Book, he called them goblins instead orcs. Later on when he and Frodo found out, there was a shift from goblin to orc, but they didn't go back and correct other entries.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>
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Old 04-05-2001, 12:29 PM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

But would goblins and orcs really act that different from each other? goblins seemed more humourous, well, at least to me, singing &quot;down to goblin town you go, my lad.&quot; While orcs seemed truely terrifying and just plain evil. the differences seem too large for them to be the same.

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Old 04-05-2001, 12:35 PM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

Malice and spite, which sometimes appear as crule sarcasm, are also a treat of the Orcs in LOTR.
Northern orcs want to have 'fun' with the captured Merry and Pippin, and asked whether they might give 'good sport'; and some orcs in Cirith Ungol wanted to do the same to Frodo.
This of course only means that they reveled in their cruelty, but the goblins of the Misty Mountains do as well. Orc humour <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 04-05-2001, 12:44 PM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

Mithrandir, what makes you think it strange taht there be such a diversity as that among a specie? Just look at our own, most sources say that the English are the rudest nationality. (If anyone here is English I appologize if you are offended, for I'm english too) And some peoples are naturally friendlier than others, depending upon traditions and cultural evolution (is that a term?) Now if one wishes to start a topic entitled &quot;Orc\Goblin Culture&quot; be my guest.

As for the question of if they are related, I think I read somewhere saying that goblins were smaller orcs, but the two were akin. Prap's only the larger warriors were termed 'Orcs' and the lesser version of these 'goblins'. Praps goblins were shunned for being weaker and the groups left their bretheren and settled areas of their own, such as goblin town. Just a theory mind you.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sūldal's Keep</a> ." </p>
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Old 04-05-2001, 02:22 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goblins=Orcs??

Point well taken, Sud. Thanks!

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Old 04-05-2001, 03:14 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:Well also when Sam and Frodo are hiding....

from the two orcs in Mordor-you know the ones that called Gollum a gobler with flapping hands-I think that Tolkien refered to the smaller orc as a goblin.Just an idea
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Ps.The Hobbit is a kids book and I think that if Tolkien showed the true nature of the goblins then well the kid reading it might freak out.

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Old 04-06-2001, 06:55 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

Tolkien says (in the introduction to the Hobbit), that &quot;goblin&quot; is a translation of &quot;Orc&quot;.

The idea that goblins are smaller Orcs is completely erroneous (Although in unpublished early drafts, Tolkien did toy with the idea - before inventing &quot;Uruk&quot; to indicate larger goblins).

The misunderstanding arises from two sentences - one in &quot;The Hobbit&quot; and one in LotR. In the former book, a sentence talks about &quot;even the big ones, the great Orcs of the mountains...&quot; This can be interpreted as implying that Orcs are bigger than goblins. But if the emphasis is placed on &quot;great&quot; rather than Orc, with the understanding (gleaned from the intro) that &quot;Orc&quot; and &quot;goblin&quot; are synonyms, then it doesn't indicate this at all.

The second passage is in &quot;The Two Towers&quot;, where Pippin and Merry wake up to find themselves surrounded by Orcs. They hear arguing between Ugluk, Grishnakh and the Northerners, and then see U and G standing facing each other. The text says that &quot;around them stood many smaller goblins...&quot; Now, if you stress &quot;goblins&quot; when you read, this implies that goblins are smaller creatures than Ugluk and Grishnakh. But if you emphazise &quot;smaller&quot;, you get the correct understanding - that U and G are goblins too - LARGER goblins. This is undoubtedly correct, as both Ugluk (or his severed head) and Grishnakh are described as &quot;goblins&quot; elsewhere in the text.

In fact, &quot;goblin&quot; is used to describe Saruman's Uruk-hai more than any other specific kind of Orc in LotR. As well as the description of Ugluk's severed head (or is it Mauhur's?), we also have the bodies of &quot;four goblin-soldiers of greater stature&quot;. This alone is clear proof that &quot;goblin&quot; is a synonym for &quot;Orc&quot;, as Tolkien explicitly tells us it is, rather than a term for some smaller sub-group.

By the way, the snuffling tracker in Mordor is never described as a goblin.

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Old 04-06-2001, 07:37 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

welcome to the board, Shagrat. Very true opinion, as it sounds to me

bt6w, are not you one Shagrat who used to chat at DAL. net channel &quot;Tolkien&quot; once?

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Old 04-06-2001, 08:06 AM   #11
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, I don't know where, that Goblins were another type of Orc, like the Uruk-Hai, but doubtless Goblin was also a term used for Orc, like in the Hobbit. It may be that the Goblins of the Hobbit were not so mean as the Orcs of Mordor, not being so much under the influance of the Dark Lord. It may also be that Tolkien did not find a &quot;use&quot; for the Goblins to be so mean in the Hobbit. The Hobbit was, after all written before the LOTR, and was more of a &quot;fairy tale&quot; story. That's just my take. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 04-06-2001, 10:11 AM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It may be that the Goblins of the Hobbit were not so mean as the Orcs of Mordor, not being so much under the influance of the Dark Lord.<hr></blockquote>

nay, rather the difference comes out of accountant's person - Bilbo looked on life in more jolly fashion, that Frodo, who's burden and responsability were much greater.

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Old 04-06-2001, 04:19 PM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

Thought I'd throw a quote into the fray:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southener at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were&quot;
-Merry, &quot;Flotsam and Jetsam&quot;, LotR (my italics)<hr></blockquote>

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Old 04-06-2001, 04:30 PM   #14
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

Ah, H-I and I seem to agree. It is the simplest explanation, and sticks withing the realm of ME.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>
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