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Old 01-23-2001, 01:27 AM   #1
lindil
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It is stated in UT and the LotR app. that Rivendell was beseiged during the War of the Elves andSauron .
How do you defend a valley surrounded [?] by enemies? I t was stated and JRRT's pictures confirm , it was a big house , not a castle or fortress.

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Old 01-23-2001, 02:56 AM   #2
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Re: How was Rivendell defended?

The power that resided in Rivendell, Narya the Greatest of the Three, weilded by Elrond, a mighty king, was too great for any save Sauron himself in person to overcome. I don't quite understand this, but there you have it.

The arms of Bruinen that surround Rivendell also provide signifcant protection, as they can be ordered by Elrond to flood and drown anyone, at all, who attempts the crossing. Therefore any attack would have to come from the South, near the Misty Mountains. Such a narrow pass between River and Mountains could be easily defended.

And for protection from the East, the barren Towers of Mist are a sure enough protection. True, they can by crossed, but not quickly enough for them to not be apprehended, and not in enough numbers to resist a mountain attack.

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Old 01-23-2001, 03:10 AM   #3
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Imladris

&quot;The arms of Bruinen that surround Rivendell also provide signifcant
protection, as they can be ordered by Elrond to flood and drown
anyone, at all, who attempts the crossing.

Elrond needed the ring to bring about the flood. Elsewhere we are told that the Elves did not use the rings until the one had been lost in the early 3rd age.So , I especially doubt that they would be using them against Ssauron while he possesed the one ring in the second age.

true re: the misty mts they would slow any army down and string them out.

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Old 01-23-2001, 07:37 AM   #4
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Re: Imladris

Good question, Lindil. An unfortified house lying in the middle of a valley does not strike me as easily defensible. However, it is mentioned several times in the books how difficult it was to enter Rivendell. I wonder if the geography of the place, perhaps combined with illusory elvish sorcery, restricted access. Remember that Melian could deny entry to Doriath to anyone she wished, Beren excepted. Perhaps Elrond had similar (though lesser) abilities.

Practically speaking, this would mean that Sauron would be aware of the location of Rivendell, but only the Dark Lord himself would have the power to force an entry into the valley. Assuming that the valley was reasonably fertile, and with a readily available supply of fresh water, the besieged were probably self-sufficient. Just conjecture, of course, but perhaps worth considering.

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Old 01-23-2001, 10:32 AM   #5
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imladris

I don't think Elrond's powers would lie in that direction . Even Galadriel who was a beloved pupil and in-law to Melian could not keep Orcs [ or Gollum] out of Lothlorien , her enchantment there was largely the ring's power to slow time down to a trickle.
I have always assumed [rings aside -which they were at that point] that Galadriel was far more powerful tham Elrond . She lived in valinor and recv'd tutelage from the Valar and Maia [esp. Melian in Doriath] was thousands of years older.
They were under seige I think for a couple of years, so yeah, it was a rough path to negotiate ,but 2 years is more than enough time to master the lay of the land and move your troops as close as you dare. From the pictures it just doesn't look as if the N/S/W approaches were impossible to come down.

The only thing that comes to my mind is that they had thousands of Elves defending the place with millions of made each month. I know of no instance of elven magic used to keep armies at bay indefinetly.



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Old 01-23-2001, 11:32 AM   #6
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Re: imladris

There were evidently Elf Lords aplenty in those days, not to mention many more Elves with their slender bows. An approaching army would have a hard time of it in the trackless wastes, searching for Rivendell's exact location.

Nevertheless, knowing its approximate whereabouts, Sauron could besiege the major roads and tracks to and from the valley, thus preventing an easy or a swift march from Imladris with any strength to speak of.

This would be more of a measure to prevent Elrond's strength in arms from doing any greater good than drawing off an army to keep him pinned.

The final assault on Imladris would have to come after the main conflict was won, when Sauron would have leisure to find the hidden valley and wage war in earnest.

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Old 01-23-2001, 07:05 PM   #7
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Re: imladris

No question, Galadriel was more powerful than Elrond. Her might was second only to Feanor's (although she doesn't seem to use it much).

I have a question. The Last Alliance of Men and Elves does not seem to me aptly named. Forces from Gondor joined with Cirdan's mariners to clear Eriador of the forces of Sauron after the North-Kingdom's end. This was well after the Last Alliance.

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Old 01-23-2001, 07:43 PM   #8
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Re: imladris

From the descriptions given of Imladris and its environs (heavily forested, in a deeply cut valley with steep walls and swift rivers) it would seem a easy area to defend. On should also consider that Elrond when besieged there after the ruin of Eregion, had not only the survivors of Eregion who fled to him, but also had an Army at his command (Gil-galad had sent Elrond with an army from Lindon to relieve Eregion).

Elrond did not even have Vilya until after the War of Elves and Sauron (Gil-galad gave it to him at the first White Council just after the Sauron was driven out of Eriador (ca. 1702) at the earliest.

Lindil,
You state that Elrond needed Vilya in order to bring about the flood. What is your basis for this statement. JRRT does not say that Elrond had to use Vilya. Why do you not think that Elrond could have controlled it with the Power that was within him?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Qouthe Lindil:
I don't think Elrond's powers would lie in that direction . Even Galadriel who was a beloved pupil and in-law to Melian...
-----------------------------------------------------------

Galadriel an in-law and pupil, yes. Elrond was however a direct descendent of Melian the Maia.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil (con't):
...could not keep Orcs [ or Gollum] out of Lothlorien , her enchantment there was largely the ring's power to slow time down to a trickle.
------------------------------------------------------------

This was of course a power of all the Three. None of them were intended to do anything with Orcs and they were not intended s weapons of war.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I have always assumed [rings aside -which they were at that point] that Galadriel was far more powerful tham Elrond . She lived in valinor and recv'd tutelage from the Valar and Maia [esp. Melian in Doriath] was thousands of years older.
------------------------------------------------------------

Elrond was a direct descendent of Melian the Maia and Luthien. He was part Maia himself. When writing about what could have happened if various individuals took the One Ring, JRRT says that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of overthrowing Sauron if she had the One. He then says that if she were capable of this &quot;so also were the other gaurdians of the Three, especially Elrond.&quot; Note the &quot;especially Elrond&quot;. Not &quot;even Elrond&quot;, but &quot;especially Elrond&quot;.


Gwaihir,
JRRT does not say that Galadriel was more powerful than Elrond or that her might was second only to Feanor. He says that she was the greatest of the Noldor save Feanor maybe though wiser than him in one place and in another similar statement that she was great like Feanor though her gifts differed. This is different than 'might'.

Tar-Elenion


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Old 01-24-2001, 12:11 AM   #9
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rivendell

Tar -Elenion:&quot;From the descriptions given of Imladris and its environs (heavily
forested, in a deeply cut valley with steep walls and swift rivers) it would
seem a easy area to defend. On should also consider that Elrond when
besieged there after the ruin of Eregion, had not only the survivors of
Eregion who fled to him, but also had an Army at his command
(Gil-galad had sent Elrond with an army from Lindon to relieve Eregion).&quot;

the vision I have of rivendell is based on JRRT's pictures which I was looking at a week ago [so I could be off]
the valley / mountain walls were by no means to steep tp get an army down. and as to the heavily forested ,if I were sauron's commander, I would during summer be thinking of Fire to burn and smoke them out.

Now the earlier suggestion that the force was there to contain not defeat, makes the most sense-in terms of Rivendell being able to hold out for a couple of years , but the words seige to my mind indicate something like the seige's of Minas Tirith and Barad Dur and this is what I find hard to imagine.


Tar-Elenion &quot;Lindil: You state that Elrond needed Vilya in order to bring about the flood.
What is your basis for this statement.&quot;


An assumption. I may have underestimated Elronds abilities [ in the realm of power weilding &quot; his might is in wisdom it is said ,not strength of arms&quot; is I believe a description given of Elrond though I can't place it at the moment] ,because we are never shown or even told of any , other than the single flooding incedent [which Gandalf aided].
I am basing it [loosely] on the inability to recall Elves using their innate power to control nature as Sauron [storms ] and other Maia [Osse] are known to do. {an exception is Galdriel's[a ring weilder] fog in Cirion and Eorl}.
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Tar-Elenion: &quot; Qouthe Lindil: I don't think Elrond's powers would lie in that direction . Even Galadriel
who was a beloved pupil and in-law to Melian...


Galadriel an in-law and pupil, yes. Elrond was however a direct
descendent of Melian the Maia..&quot;

Lindil: 1/16th or something blended [read weakened, in terms of power] w/ the edain forefathers
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil (con't):
...could not keep Orcs [ or Gollum] out of Lothlorien , her enchantment
there was largely the ring's power to slow time down to a trickle.


Tar-Elenion &quot; This was of course a power of all the Three. None of them were
intended to do anything with Orcs and they were not intended as
weapons of war. &quot;

I was reffering to the fact that Galadriel was seemingly unable to construct a defensive Girdle around Lorien as had Melian around Doriath, even though she had presumably learned all she could/would teach.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I have always assumed [rings aside -which they were at that point] that
Galadriel was far more powerful tham Elrond . She lived in valinor and
recv'd tutelage from the Valar and Maia [esp. Melian in Doriath] was
thousands of years older.
------------------------------------------------------------

Tar-Elenion &quot; Elrond was a direct descendent of Melian the Maia and Luthien. He was
part Maia himself. When writing about what could have happened if
various individuals took the One Ring, JRRT says that Galadriel
conceived of herself as capable of overthrowing Sauron if she had the
One. He then says that if she were capable of this &quot;so also were the
other gaurdians of the Three, especially Elrond.&quot; Note the &quot;especially
Elrond&quot;. Not &quot;even Elrond&quot;, but &quot;especially Elrond&quot;.
Lindil: I am not sure wherethe above comes from HoME or Letters? I am unfamiliar w/ it. It would change my view of Elrond a bit though.
-----------------------------------------------
Gwaihir,
JRRT does not say that Galadriel was more powerful than Elrond or that
her might was second only to Feanor. He says that she was the
greatest of the Noldor save Feanor maybe though wiser than him in
one place and in another similar statement that she was great like
Feanor though her gifts differed. This is different than 'might'.
Lindil: I think greatness , for JRRT interms of people of the same race and House is in most resects synonomous w/ Power/Might.

Lindil



Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 01-24-2001, 01:34 AM   #10
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Re: rivendell

Oh, Tar-Elenion, that's what I meant. Might and power, what is the difference?

A deep-cut valley would be easy to defend, even if Elrond had not then the river at his command. Save by arrows, there waws no easy descent into it. Elven-archers could pick off any orcs who tried to descend easily, and any who tried to jump would do themselves sufficient harm to keep them from defending themselves for a few seconds at the least; enough time for an Elf to slay them quickly. And for argument's sake, parachuters would be even easier to shoot.

Even if the seige of Imladris was intended to contain Elrond rather than destroy Rivendell, no doubt Sauron would have tried to sack it if he could. But as this proved above his power, he was content to fulfil the basic purpose of cutting Elrond's forces off.

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Old 01-24-2001, 06:58 AM   #11
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Re: Imladris

A couple of brief points regarding Elrond. The quote Lindil mentioned about the `might of Elrond lying in wisdom rather than weapons` is from the Council of Elrond. IIRC Boromir was the speaker. This quote is open to interpretation, but IMO it refers to not merely to Elrond individually but rather to the resources at his command.

I also recall Gandalf stating that `even Aragorn and Glorfindel together could not withstand all the Nine at once`(or words to that effect). This suggests that on an individual basis, Aragorn and Glorfindel were considerably more powerful than the Nazgul. It is difficult to be sure of these things, but I would guess that, given his lineage, Elrond would be `mightier` than either of those two. When combined with the Noldorin members of his household, I reckon that there would more than enough raw power in Rivendell to deal with any `supernatural` assault by the Sauron`s forces, short of an appearance by the Dark Lord himself.

I`d also like to echo the point raised by Tar-Elenion, Lindil. What grounds do you have for supposing that there is a link between Elrond`s possession of Vilya and his power over the river? I may be wrong, but I don`t recall any supportive evidence from the books. The powers of the Three seem closely linked to their associated element, eg Gandalf`s mastery of fire was no doubt aided by his possession of Narya. The incident involving Galadriel`s fog mentioned earlier in the thread also highlights this. Since Elrond possessed the Ring of Air, I don`t see how it would confer upon the wielder power over water.

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Old 01-24-2001, 03:02 PM   #12
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Re: Imladris

I will have to disagree with you, Taimar, on the point you brought up about Glorfindel and Elrond. What would make you believe that Elrond is greater, other than a ring was entrusted to him. Galadriel was the greatest elf alive and she didn't get the most powerful ring.

Glorfindel is much older than Elrond. Glorfindel also killed a Balrog. Glorfindel was completely elf, Elrond was part human.

Another thing, didn't it say in the book that the river would flood whenever a ringwraith tried to cross it. I remember reading it like that. I also believe that was all the book said, so who is to say that it is gandalf, elrond, both of them, or even something else. Argueing is futile, unless you hav concrete evidence.

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Old 01-24-2001, 05:39 PM   #13
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Re: Imladris

&quot;Who commanded the flood?&quot;, asked Frodo.
&quot;Elrond&quot;, replied Gandalf,&quot;the river is under his command&quot;.

Apologies if I have not quoted exactly, since I`m relying on memory. Whilst one does not like to assume too much, I consider that to be fairly concrete.

As far as Elrond being more powerful than Glorfindel, it is merely conjecture on my part, as I made clear in my earlier post. Feel free to disagree with my opinion. I would only add that Elrond has (admittedly diluted) Maiar blood. I would also disagree with your assumption that being descended from all three Houses of the Edain could be regarded as a racial disadvantage.



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Old 01-24-2001, 06:04 PM   #14
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Re: Imladris

Lindil:
Re Imladris' defensibilty:
You may wish to look at the drawings again.<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> The illustrations numbers 104, 105, 106, 107 and 108 all show steep (even sheer) walled cliffs forming the valley the that was named Imladris (and indeed the translation 'deep dale cleft' attests to this as well). This of course leaves only a (relatively) narrow and defensible access. You might also note the description given in 'Flight to the Ford': &quot;The Road was still running stedily downhill... in late afternoon they came to a place where the Road went suddenly under the dark shadow of tall pine-trees, and then plunged into a deep cutting with steep moist walls of red stone... at the bottom of a sharp incline they saw before them a long flat mile, and beyond that the Ford of Rivendell. On the further side was a steep brown bank, threaded by a winding path; and behind that the tall mountains climbed, shoulder above shoulder, and peak beyond peak into the fading sky.&quot;
The sheer walled cliffs would be exceedingly difficult for an army to traverse especially in the face of determined opposition. Any organized body would be forced to approach by the Road through a (relatively) narrow pass. As for starting a fire, it is a large enough area that it might be difficult to direct it, and it would be very unpredictable. No garrantee that it would not come back and burn you.

The suggestion about Sauron's force being there to contain and not defeat does make sence, I was _not_ disputing that (I was just commenting on Imladris' defensibilty). In fact JRRT at the least strongly implies just that in UT: &quot;But now Sauron attempted to gain mastery of Eriador: Lorinand could wait. But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward. Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon... and he called in therefore his scattered forces and marched west... But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him from coming down upon his rear.&quot;

Re using Vilya to control the river: I will accept your statement of it being merely an assumption. I though disagree. It is possible that Vilya may have helped (after all possession of the Rings did increase the native power of the weilder) but the power of the Three lay in preserving, making and understanding, not in controlling rivers or casting fireballs or calling down storms. If Vilya did anything in this event it was just to increase Elrond's 'natural' ability to control the river.

Re 'his might is in wisdom...': I think Boromir said this in the 'Council of Elrond'. However there are other statements as well 'venerable as a king, hale as a warrior, mighty among both Elves and Men'.

Re Maia blood: The 1/16th Maia is correct and this was still much more than Galadriel (in essence Elrond was a close and direct descendant of the 'gods'). I do not think that JRRT says that the Edain blood 'weakened' the Peredhil.

I must cut this short, have to go pickup my truck from the mechanic. post more in a little bit.

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Old 01-24-2001, 06:34 PM   #15
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Re: Imladris

Re: Maia
It says that Galadriel is the greatest of all the elves, besides maybe Faenor, in UT. Despite the fact that he has maiar blood in him. Do you suppose that the edain blood could have offset the maiar blood?




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Old 01-24-2001, 07:31 PM   #16
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Re: Imladris

Vilya is noted as being the most powerful of the Three once only, at the end of LoTR. nenya of Galadriel's possesion is also said to be the most mighty in one passage. I really don't think there is much difference.

As for Galadriel not getting the most powerful Ring, taking it that Vilya is the greatest, that assumption is ill-founded. It may not be that the Rings are given according to power. Vilya may be most suited to Elrond's natural powers, Nenya to Galadriel's, and Narya to Cirdan's and Gandalf's.

And Elrond's power is in wisdom, it is said, not strength.

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Old 01-24-2001, 07:36 PM   #17
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Re: Imladris

It is difficult to be sure, Durelen. The way I look at it is that the Peredhil could be considered to represent all that is good about the `Threefold Races`. I can`t recall any of them committing an evil act.

How this can be interpreted in terms of power is another matter. I never said that he was `greater` than Galadriel and as I said before, it is only my opinion that Elrond should be considered `greater` than Glorfindel, I don`t think the argument can be proved definitively either way.

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Old 01-24-2001, 07:38 PM   #18
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Re: Imladris

Lindil the quote about 'especially Elrond' is in Letter 246. It is quite intriguing.

Lindil/Gwaihir
Re: 'Greatness being synonomous with power/might' and 'power/might whats the difference' (re greatness).
First Elrond and Galadriel are not really of the same race. Galadriel is fully Eldarin, Elrond is Peredhil has the blood of three races: the Eldar, Edain and Maiar. They are also not quite of the same House. Elrond preferred to reckon his lineage to Elwe, not Finwe.
However 'greatness/power/might' all depends on your definition of them and what they entail. Lets look at it this way. How was Galadriel the 'greatest' or 'most powerful'? Did she command huge armies? No. Obviously not militarily. Was she the best warrior? No, I think Fingolfin was the greatest warrior of the Noldor. Certainly Fingon, Gil-galad, Elrond, Feanor, Finrod etc were all better warriors. Was she the best craftsman? No, Feanor, Celebrimbor, Enerdhil and others were better. Was she the wisest? Well she was wiser than Feanor, but Cirdan saw further and deeper than anyone else of Middle-earth, Elrond was the 'loremaster', I _think_ Finarfin is accounted the wisest of the Noldor. Is she the greatest bard? No Maglor and Daeron both have her beat. The greatest healer? No, that would be Elrond. Obviously when JRRT calls her 'greatest' of the Noldor he means something other than just 'physical' (or 'magical') attributes. (And by the way JRRT also calls Luthien Tinuviel greatest of the Eldar, greater even than Feanor and Galadriel (and I agree with him), but how was she greater than either of these?, there is also an instance of him calling Earendil the greatest and one of Thingol being called the greatest but the same question can be asked, how was that individual the greatest?).

Gwaihir:
I dont think that any sort of 'overhead' attack would have to be worried about. Any one attempting to jump down into the valley would be dead from the fall, if that were even possible. It seems to be 'readily' approachable from one direction only.

Taimar:
Your interpretation of 'wisdom not weapons' is likely correct. I also agree with your statemen of Elrond's 'greatness' vis-vis Aragorn and Glorfindel, although as I was pointing out to Lindil and Gwaihir the query is 'how was he greater?' Greatness (and power) is relative.
However I disagree regarding the Rings. I have seen a number of times wherein people put forth the theory that the Three are especially connected with an Element (Air, Water, Fire). But JRRT does not describe them as have any particular power regarding these Elements. He says that they are orimarily intended to prevent decay (slow time), they increase the wearers native power they do _not_ render the wearer invisible. About the closest that I recall an 'Elemental power' even being remotely implied is Cirdan giving Gandalf Narya and saying that it might aid him in 'kindling hearts to action' or something like that, I misremeber where the quote is.

Durelen:
When asked by Frodo, Gandalf says that &quot;Elrond commanded it... The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the ford.&quot;

Glorfindel _may_ be older than Galadriel. Galadriel never slew a Balrog (as far as we know Galadriel was never in any battle except at Alqualonde). Does this make Glorfindel more powerful than Galadriel? Now (to be fair) JRRT does imply that when Glorfindel was 'reincarnated' in an almost 'angelic' and in power near equal to the Maiar. Of course Elrond was closely descended from the Maiar himself. And Glorfindel served Elrond.


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Old 01-24-2001, 08:06 PM   #19
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Re: Imladris

Why differentiate between the Three Elven Rings if they were identical? No such distinction is made with regard to the Seven and the Nine. Ring of Air, Ring of Water, Ring of Fire, surely there is a reason for these descriptions which relates to the properties of the Three rings.

As far as `elemental power` being implied, I think that Gandalf`s frequent use of fire, as well as the properties of Galadriel`s Mirror is rather more than an implication. Somewhat more tenuously, there are references to the beneficial effects of the `air` and `atmosphere` of Rivendell. This could be construed as an indication of a specific effect generated (at least in part) by Vilya.

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Old 01-24-2001, 08:48 PM   #20
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Re: Imladris

What with all this discussion of Elrond, I'm surprised Red hasn't said anything yet. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 01-24-2001, 09:48 PM   #21
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Re: Imladris

Taimar:
Unless of course it relates to their stones. Vilya is also called the Ring of Sapphire, does that mean it has special powers over sapphires? Nenya is called the Ring of Adamant. Does that mean it had special powers over diamonds?
Vilya did effect the 'atmosphere' of Rivendell, but that was its power. Note Bilbo's comment about not being able to keep track of time in Rivendell. This 'timelessness' was an effect of the Ring (and its principle purpose see Letter 131). Gandalf's abilities with fire was his own 'natural' power (which could be enhanced by a Ring (op cit)). He used fire in 'combative' situations, but the Three &quot;were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained&quot;, says Elrond (see Council of Elrond). Note that we never see any of the 7 or 9 (each of which had their own stone) so we do not how they might have been called individually. It just seems to me that their names are a description of the Rings themselves not any particular power. JRRT does not say that they have any special power over Air, Fire, or Water and he does describe their powers.

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Old 01-24-2001, 11:04 PM   #22
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Re: Imladris

Again I find myself disagreeing, not as much as before, but still disagreeing. Tar Elenion, I say greatness, because power is a very misleading term. I had just read in UT the part where Tolkien states that Galadriel is the greatest of all the elves, save Faenor. Let's see if I can find a quote, ok here goes. Well, maybe it would just be easier if I point you to the text that I am looking on right now. It is around page 240 or so in UT.

I look at Galadriel as the greatest among elves, since she is good at everything, She was very athletic(probably was a good warrior), one of the wisest of the elves, having learned everything the Valar had to teach she was very intelligent. Faenor was a craftsmen, what else was he good at? Finrod was wise, anything else besides that? Fingolfin was strongest of the elves and maybe he was very wise too, but Galadriel was still greater. Just think about it, if you were second best at everything, then it is almost impossible not to be the best all around, unless there is someone who is first at everything or nearly everything. Please see my point, I understand where you are coming from, I just think you are looking at it in a different way than I am.

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Old 01-25-2001, 03:43 AM   #23
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Galadriel/rings /Maia /greatness and ...

Tar -Elenion , I unfortunately do not have Pictures, I was looking at Saul's ... I will take your word and [JRRT's quotes re: terrain ] for now <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> As for the many points raised :

Power /greatness andPeredhil/Glorfindel

Glorfindel and Galdriel are given increasingly more powerful statures and roles in JRRt's post LotR writings [see esp. Glor. in HoME 12 ] .
We don't know just how the Maia bloodline effects power- it could well be that that was the reason for his ability to control the river, wwhich I concede prob had little if anything to do w/ the ring .
now that I think on it it seems likely, as the Elves do not seem to be otherwise noted for controlling nature. throughout the tales of the 3 ages only this and Galadriels fog come to mind].



Tar elenion: &quot; Lindil the quote about 'especially Elrond' is in Letter 246. It isquite intriguing.&quot;

I hve no hardcopy of letters at the moment but I have to close netscape toopen it , but I will check it out promptly.

Durelen:&quot;Finrod was wise, anything else besides that?&quot;
I have become a big Finrod fan since having read the Athrabeth in HoME 10.
He was probably the most loving and open hearted of the Noldor {not that that is saying much!} that we are given much of a view of. He willingly risks and gives his life in Middle-Earth for Beren. Contrast his study of mortals and their place in Arda and Lindir[?] in rivendell's &quot; mortals have not been our study, we have other concerns...&quot; [from memory]. most of the Eldar put up a wall of sorts between themselves and Men. I was touched when I read in HoME 12 that Elrond loved Aragorn as much as his own sons. We are never shown that kind of warmth directly from Elrond as we are finrod. Even Galdariel [whom I have in threads past-gone to great lengths to support against the charge of being a do-nothing]
spends no time [it seems] w/the fellowship waiting till the end of their stay to eat w/ them.

So , I put Finrod and Galadriel at the top , feanor may have been the most powerful and creative , but he was an arrogant ,deluded, twisted Elf. so Power is no measure of greatness of 'being'

thanks all for the extremely informative discussion . Sorry if It all started from a poor viewing of the pictures , but as i hoped it might the discussion has gone into area's I havn'texplored before: the relationship of the 3 to the users, the nature of the peredhil and elronds stature and place.

One last q. from me-
Tar Elenion, are you basing Elrond's Elwe lineage being primary [to pick among inexact phrases] to him on the speech in the council or is there more on this? &quot;

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Old 01-25-2001, 07:31 AM   #24
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Re: Imladris

I take your point, Tar-Elenion, about the possibility that the epithets applied to the Three could have referred merely to the stones set in them.

As far as their ability to exert influence upon the elements they were associated with, I still think this is a possibility, though I say again, it is mere conjecture on my part, with little definitive evidence to back it up. But then, that is what forums such as this are all about!

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Old 01-25-2001, 07:22 PM   #25
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Re: Galadriel/rings /Maia /greatness and ...

Durelen:
My intent is not to get you to change your mind. You can veiw Galadriel as 'the greatest'. JRRT does say this about her (of course he also says it about a variety of characters, as I mentioned in my above post). I mentioned the UT quote earlier. The point I am trying to make is that 'greatness' is relative. Why does, for example, JRRT refer to Feanor as the greatest, if as you imply, he was a craftsman and nothing more? Why does JRRT say that Luthien Tinuviel is the greatest (and he makes the point that she is greater than Galadriel and Feanor)?
Galadriel was noted as a good athlete in her youth in Valinor, but many of the Elves were athletic. Was she a 'warrior'? Not likely. JRRT notes that she did fight in defence of her kinsfolk of Alqualonde, but that is the only occassion in which she is noted as fighting. It would be far fetched to say that she is a greater warrior than any of the princes of the Eldar. You mention that Feanor was only a craftsmen and (unless your question was rhetorical) seem to imply that was about his limit. I must point out that Feanor was exceedingly intelligent, he divised the tengwar and was considered a superb linguist by the Eldarin masters. He was obviously a charismatic leader. Read of his slaying and see that he was also a powerful warrior. Fionrod was wise, he was also a great fighter and master of magic. He seems to have been a great leader as well and an excellent musician. Fingolfin was the strongest, bravest and most valiant. He was also accounted very wise (a reason for his being given the High Kingship). He was also a great leader. Similar points can be made for a variety of the princes of the Eldalie.
The question still stands: why was Galadriel 'the greatest'? As I think I have shown it is not because she was the 'most powerful' or the best at anything in particular (or second best at anything or everything). It is obvious that there were those who were better warriors (e.g. any of the Eldarin princes), those who had greater magic (e.g. Luthien and Finrod), those who were 'wiser' (e.g. Cirdan, Finarfin, Finrod), those who were more skillful craftsmen (e.g. Feanor, Mahtan, Celebrimbor), those who were greater leaders, loremasters, healers etc. Elrond was arguably more important in the overall events of the Second and Third Ages. Greatness is relative and does not necessarily have to do with a person's _physical_ power or attributes. P.S. I am not on a fishing expedition here. There is a likely answer (and Lindil comes close, possibly even dead on). <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Lindil:
I am quite pleased with my copy of 'Pictures', which is now very difficult to obtain. However I was refering to the drawings in 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator' by Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull (which has the pictures in Pictures plus many more). It has recently been issued in a trade (paperback) format and is readily available.

re Glorfindel and Galadriel:
Yes JRRT does increase their 'stature' in his later writings. In some ways this is unfortunate. If he had actually gone through with the changes he was thinking of to Galadriel's history and character I think it would have actually lessened the importance and impact of her later actions.

The Letter is very interesting.

Nice defence of Finrod.

re Elrond lineage:
No. It is based on JRRT saying that Elrond preferred his lineage to Elwe. See PoME 'Problem of Ros' n. 19 and associated text..

Taimar:
I understand your theory as well. It is not impossible (JRRT did not rule it out, I just dont see any particular actions suggesting it). But you are correct, that is what these forums are about.




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Old 01-28-2001, 07:52 PM   #26
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Re: Galadriel/rings /Maia /greatness and ...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Why differentiate between the Three Elven Rings if they were identical? No such distinction is made with regard to the Seven and the Nine. Ring of Air, Ring of Water, Ring of Fire, surely there is a reason for these descriptions which relates to the properties of the Three rings.<hr></blockquote>

There is most certainly a difference. All I'm saying is that I don't think, in terms of 'greatness', there is much difference. They all have different powers; how can one say that one is greater than the other?

This same formula can be applied to the Elves talked about. Feanor is clearly the greatest of the Elves, for not only is he wise, strong, a fell warrior and a brilliant craftsman, but he has the greatest life in him. But one cannot say that Elrond is greater than Glorfindel, or that Galadriel is greater than Elrond. I seem to recall that Galadriel's power is in 'being' (somehow), Elrond's is in Wisdom, and Glorfindel's in combat and such. How can one judge that a wise man is greater than a stratagetical and strong man?

btw, about an overhead attack. Attempting the jump from the top of the ravine would certainly kill anyone; but if a Orc survived long enough to climb halfway down, protected by his armour, perhaps, or a cleft in the rock he has found, does stand a chance of surviving a jump, especially onto soft heather.

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Old 01-30-2001, 01:20 AM   #27
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the Picture

I saw the rivendell picture of JRRT [in the gallery!] and the [more or less] Northern and Southern cliffs are in my estimation impassable for an Army the west however seems as ifant army that had a couple of years could have moved in as far as resistance allowed.

Having a dire need to focus on the current Silm project , I prob won't even let myself look at the books forum again till my section of the Darkening of Valinor is done.
So...

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Old 01-30-2001, 01:52 AM   #28
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Re: the Picture

If only one side of the valley was passable, then it's a fair bet that any attempt to capture Rivendell would be a failure. A large enough host of archers and catapult-type devices would be enough to keep them at bay.

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Old 01-30-2001, 11:34 AM   #29
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Re: the Picture

I tend to think (as I mentioned before) that the siege was more strategic than tactical.

Siege engines would have an easier time from the TOP of a cliff, than from the BOTTOM of a valley. Hence, the importance of keeping the location of the valley itself secret. Elrond evidently had power enough to make discovery difficult beyond the happy circumstances of geography. (Witness Gandalf's difficulties in THE HOBBIT...)

Nevertheless, Sauron could be expected to make a good guess, good enough to besiege/blockade the region and prevent such strength as Elrond had from leaving the area. A strategic siege rather than a tactical one.

It might take a Gandalf (or a Sauron) to pierce the Girdle of Elrond (!) and certainly Sauron could not divert attention away from the main battle for that sort of thing.

I can, however, recall an episode of war with some topographical similarity.

During the stalemated trench warfare of WWI, England sent a small fleet of obsolete craft through the Dardanelles, a narrow straight of water held by Turkish gunners in fortifications high atop the overlooking cliffs.

Despite the advantage of height, the Turks did not have firepower enough to shoot the vessels as they passed in the center of the straight (valley). The ships however, had firepower enough to utterly demolish the Turkish fortifications, which they did.

(The plan would have worked, had the Admiral and the General on the scene stuck with the gameplan, but instead, they turned tail at the first mine, dug new trenches, and recreated the stalemate at Galipoli...)

If there were a real live rootin' tootin' shootin' seige, perhaps superior skills in the arts of war could have held Rivendell long against the second string team (numerous as they undoubtedly were) that Sauron sent against them.

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