The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-07-2003, 11:19 AM   #1
Iarhen
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
Iarhen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Which was the greatest kingdom... Rivendell or Lothlórien?

Becuase we've already discussed the greatness of both their lords, Elrond and Galadriel...

And Elrond says, in the FOTR movie, that Sauron's eye is "fixed" on Rivendell...

But it's not Rivendell the realm that menaces Sauron, and it's not Elrond whom Sauron fears and hates the most... its Lothlorien the realm that opposes him, the one that keeps Dol Guldur at bay (and viceversa) and its Lothlorien the realm that Sauron attacks in ROTK, not Rivendell... it's Galadriel the one that spies and knows about Sauron's thoughts... not Elrond... in the TTT movie, its Lothlorien the realm that helps Rohan in its battle against Isengard.

So... what do you think?
__________________
"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"
--- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.
Iarhen is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 11:32 AM   #2
Burzdol
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Fair City of Rivendell
Posts: 276
Burzdol has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree with you, Sauron doesn't care as much about Rivendell as he does Lothlorieon. I don't know why he says 'his eye is fixed on Rivendell.'

~Burzdol~
__________________
"Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"
Burzdol is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 11:40 AM   #3
Carorëiel
Haunting Spirit
 
Carorëiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 54
Carorëiel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I thought Sauron's eye was "fixed on Rivendell" at that point because that's where the Ring was. With the Nazgul chasing the Ringbearer as far as the ford, I think it's safe to assume that Sauron was pretty sure that the Ring was in Rivendell.
__________________
"Art is our way of keeping track of what we know and have known, secretly, from the beginning."--John Gardner
Carorëiel is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 11:58 AM   #4
Iarhen
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
Iarhen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

So, following your reasoning, the reason why Sauron's Eye appeared on Galadriel's mirror, when Frodo was looking into it, and the reason Frodo knew that Sauron was looking for him (wihtout wearing the ring) is because Sauron only sensed it?

That would be a good explanation...
__________________
"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"
--- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.
Iarhen is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 12:07 PM   #5
Meoshi
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë
Posts: 163
Meoshi has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I suppose Sauron paid attention to both kingdoms, so it's not a good judge of their greatness. He seemed to have some idea of the location of the ring until the breaking of the Fellowship, after which he wrongly assumed it was in Rohan or Gondor, not realizing the truth until it was too late.

Personally I think Lothlorien was greater, having Galadriel as its leader.
Meoshi is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 02:22 PM   #6
Inderjit Sanghera
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
Inderjit Sanghera has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Lothlorien problably had a larger population as well.
__________________
“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube.

"Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone
Inderjit Sanghera is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 03:24 PM   #7
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Their greatness can be determined simply by multiplying oppostion to Sauron by effective opposers and also factoring in artistic variables and then dividing by years in opposition to Necromancer/Sauron or Angmar.
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 03:38 PM   #8
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Sting

Does the difference in respective rings and the age of the bearers factor in at all? And how about geographical location being proportional to threat/response? Does the average age of the commanders and their battle experience count (according to Gandalf, it should; his comment about "such names are worth a thousand swords" or something like that.)

I dunno, lindil, I think we need a spreadsheet to do this.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 03:56 PM   #9
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
I dunno, lindil, I think we need a spreadsheet to do this.
I think we need way more information that we will never get and a more pointed question to do this [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

or I could put it this way...

the above post was meant in the most jesting of possible terms.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline  
Old 03-07-2003, 04:01 PM   #10
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Sting

Awww, c'mon. It'd be a great master's thesis... (In WHAT, I dunno.)

Can you imagine having to defend it? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Hey, how about this: Set up a couple hundred games of Middle-Earth Risk (we oughta get that many volunteers just here on the downs), come up with two bell-shaped curves indicating the strength of each stronghold (Rivendell and Lothlorien), set the games going with the differing strengths, then do a statistical analysis on what initial strength it takes for each country to last to the end of the war. Then all we have to argue is whether that level of strength is possible.

Piece of cake!!!


[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline  
Old 03-08-2003, 05:25 AM   #11
Lyra Greenleaf
The Diaphanous Dryad
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path
Posts: 1,180
Lyra Greenleaf has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

just to be REALLY picky- neither are kingdoms! whats an area ruled over by a lord called? i cant remember (or i never knew)

i think that probably rivendell has more experienced fighters in it, although you can't tell for sure. then again, lothlorien might have more people (and so, more fighters) although once again, you cant be sure
__________________
“Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you."
the Forbidden Link
Lyra Greenleaf is offline  
Old 03-08-2003, 07:12 AM   #12
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
1420!

Middle Earth RISK!?! Count me in!

Lindil, I couldn't resist:

Lessee....

Lorien - Opposition to Sauron - 10 x Effective Opposers (Galadriel, Celeborn) 2 = 20, Factoring In Artistic Variables (100% artistic) = 20, Dividing by Years of Opposition to Necromancer (at least 15,000 for Galadriel) = .0013333; hmmmm.... try it the other way around: 15,000 / 20 = 750; yeah, that seems more <ahem> accurate.

Rivendell - Opposition to Sauron - 8 x Effective Opposers (Elrond, Elrohir and his brother, Arwen) 4 = 32, , Factoring In Artistic Variables (100% artistic) = 32, Dividing by Years of Opposition to Necromancer (Let's say 7,000 for Elrond) = .0045714; other way: 7,000 / 32 = 218.75; yup, more accurate.
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Lorien wins hands down! Um, Helen, any Master's Thesis improvements on this?

(tongue so firmly in cheek it HURRRRRRTS!)
littlemanpoet is offline  
Old 03-08-2003, 08:10 AM   #13
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

ughhh, that is the last time I will offer a semi-plausible gest [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

but you forgot Glorfindel as an effective opposer for Rivendell [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

But seriously, the utter lack of hard data renders this question [ and so many others like it] unanswerable.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline  
Old 03-08-2003, 10:30 PM   #14
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Sting

Well lmp, if nothing else I'd say you've come up with an excellent algorithm for determining the number of amies on the board for a good game of LOTR RISK. We could call it LOTR RISK, BD Rules. Hey, I like that!

(rubs palms together)

I'll roll for... Kamchatka-- I mean, The Iron Hills...

Meanwhile, if we get a big enough tournament going, then we should be able to collect plenty of stats, and we can discuss the anaysis algorithms over the game. It'll look GREAT with the bar charts and pie diagrams labeled with Tengwar and Angerthas fonts. We can throw in plenty of references to The Letters and if we need to we can do some preliminary, "presearch" work using a map of Beleriand. "Silmarisk"!
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline  
Old 03-09-2003, 02:30 AM   #15
lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Silmarisk ! LOL

Actually that would be sort of fun, as long as no one took the 'value/inherent strength' as canon [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] .

OF course Morgoth is going to win [ in the first age everytime!] and imagine how complex the rules will have to be.

You can not have sons of Feanor and Turgon or Orodreth's armies fighting together after the Niraneth, and ...
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
lindil is offline  
Old 03-09-2003, 12:08 PM   #16
GaladrieloftheOlden
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there...
Posts: 1,611
GaladrieloftheOlden has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to GaladrieloftheOlden Send a message via MSN to GaladrieloftheOlden Send a message via Yahoo to GaladrieloftheOlden
Pipe

Quote:
I thought Sauron's eye was "fixed on Rivendell" at that point because that's where the Ring was. With the Nazgul chasing the Ringbearer as far as the ford, I think it's safe to assume that Sauron was pretty sure that the Ring was in Rivendell.
I agree. As for the greatness part, I think that that is like comparing cats and dogs, or burning hot and freezing cold weather, or skiing and sunbathing. It just matters what you prefer, or in this case, what your definition of "greatness" is. However, I wouldn't say that the eye wasn't usually "fixed" on Rivendell. Elrond didn't say "the eye is fixed on Rivendell, more so than on Lothlorien", did he? He wasn't comparing the two, just stating a fact. Sauron probably did want to conquer Rivendell, or at least get the Elves to leave or something, even if he would probably consider it to be a greater victory if he won over Lorien. Did Tolkien actually compare the two in any of his writings? If so, and one of you knows where, could you please quote it? If not, this could continue to be an interesting debate topic. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
"Glue... very powerful stuff."
GaladrieloftheOlden is offline  
Old 03-09-2003, 08:35 PM   #17
Voralphion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sharkey's End
Posts: 267
Voralphion has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The reason that Sauron attacked Lothlorien but not Rivendell and seemed to pay more attention to Lothlorien was that he didn't have an effective force in the north after Angmar fell. Because Lorien was further south and closer to Mordor, not to mention that it was right next door to his secondary fortress Dol Guldor, it posed more of a risk to him and therfore he watched it closer than Rivendell.
When Elrond said that his eye was fixed on Rivendell it was because the one ring was there not for any other reason. He would've had spys in the north so he would know if Rivendell was preparing an assult on him so he could prepare if necessary, but it was to far from Rivendell to Mordor for it to be a big enough threat for him.
__________________
His sword was long his lance was keen
His shining helm afar was seen
The countless stars of heavens field
Were mirrored in his silver shield
Voralphion is offline  
Old 03-10-2003, 03:17 PM   #18
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Sauron's eye, no doubt, was fixed on Rivendell because the Nazgul found the ring at Weathertop, and lost it at Bruinen. While the Nazgul realized that the gushing torrent of stamping water-stallions that mangled them must have come from the elves, and Rivendell was supposedly in that vicinity. Lothlorien was a much more powerful place. You asked which kingdom was greater? Easily Lothlorien. For starters, Imladris wasn't even a kingdom, it was the Last Homely House of Elrond Peredhil. It was his home, and a household, while Lothlorien was the golden core to a vast forest. Rivendell was never referred to as the 'Heart of Elvendom'. Aragorn who grew up there, was obviously a good judge as to the power level. Not to mention, Elrond was a Lord, but Celeborn and Galadriel ruled over a people, the Galadhrim, while Rivendell merely acted as home and haven for local western elves. It's pretty clearly stated that Lothlorien is the last great kingdom of the High Elves (of course, with many of their Sindarin and Sylvan brethren). After Lothlorien, I'd say comes the Grey Havens, and then the realm of Thranduil on the level of power. Rivendell had something the elf-realms didn't have though, lots of Noldorin elves. Elrond himself was important, and his children, but the likes of Gildor Inglorien and Glorfindel, and Erestor, are not to be taken lightly compared to a Legolas or a Haldir, who in their own realms were considered quite powerful. I think the realm in Northern Mirkwood had the largest population of elves, but they were an entirely rustic folk. Lothlorien (which had Celeborn, Galadriel, Nenya, and an entire city, not to mention scout flets out as far as the edge of the enormous forest, and more locations) was easily the strongest.

I just noticed that every elven place seems to have its own river. Common sense to build near a river, I guess, but the Bruinen, Forest River, and Celebrant (with Nimrodel) are pretty special.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:13 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.