Sauron goes where??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

05-30-2002, 07:26 PM

What ever did happen to Sauron??? I know he was like "connected" to the Ring, but was he destroyed all together when the Ring was cast into Mt. Doom? Or, is there some way he can "come back"??? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Kuruharan · 05-30-2002, 08:16 PM

No, he can't come back. He was not totally destroyed with the Ring, but he was so weakened that he became nothing more than a "shadow of malice" forever unable to ever again take shape.

He was permanently rejected by the Valar. That was the whole towering thunder-cloud being blown away by a cold west wind scene in ROTK.

Jessica Jade · 06-02-2002, 08:53 PM

Quote:

He was permanently rejected by the Valar. That was the whole towering thunder-cloud being blown away by a cold west wind scene in ROTK.

I don't quite understand. Did Sauron actually have the nerve to seek Valinor and the Valar, knowing that the evil he did in M.E. was well beyond forgiveness? Where DID Sauron go? Perhaps into the Void? Can someone please explain to me in full the significance of the hand being blown away?

Elrian · 06-02-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

I don't quite understand. Did Sauron actually have the nerve to seek Valinor and the Valar, knowing that the evil he did in M.E. was well beyond forgiveness? Where DID Sauron go? Perhaps into the Void? Can someone please explain to me in full the significance of the hand being blown away?

That was Saruman, after being killed by Wormtongue, who's spirit looked towards the West and was blown away.

Quote:

No, he can't come back. He was not totally destroyed with the Ring, but he was so weakened that he became nothing more than a "shadow of malice" forever unable to ever again take shape.

This is what happened to Sauron after the Ring was destroyed.

zifnab · 06-03-2002, 10:06 AM

Long time no see, Elrian. Glad to see some of your posts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It can be thought that the souls(fea) of the Maia were called to 'The Halls of Mandos' and easily rejected in the same swipe of the hand.

Kuruharan · 06-03-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

That was Saruman, after being killed by Wormtongue, who's spirit looked towards the West and was blown away.

Sauron had a similar experience.

Quote:

"The realm of Sauron is ended!" said Gandalf. "The Ringbearer has fulfilled his Quest." And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there arose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

-Return of the King; Field of Cormallen; p 252

Apparently he was not seeking pardon at the time his spirit was dispersed. He was trying to strike at those who had defeated him.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Eol Telemnar · 12-12-2003, 08:48 PM

Going to the original question, he can't come back, although he does not dissapear completely. I think he wanders in darkness, forever [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-12-2003, 09:18 PM

This is the point of the book, i think: Evil is not ended, but it does not have any power of its own anymore, all it can do is influence people: power is not influence.
I know everyone has different opinions, but this is how i see it.

Iarhen · 12-13-2003, 07:37 PM

Well, Sauron may be forever incapable of returning by his own means...

And that's the main danger behind Necromancy... As someone said this before, if men had relations with the dead, they face the danger of exposing themselves to greater evil than just mere wraiths... Maybe Sauron, the Necromancer by excelence, could communicate with them... And even posssibly take over the person treating with the dead... I think that THAT is the only way for Sauron to come back after the undoing of the One Ring...

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 12:37 PM

Sauron had poured so much of himself into the One Ring, that when it was destroyed, he was extremely weakened. The most horrible thing he could do now is probably give children in Gondor nightmares. He essentially became nothing.

Tar-Alcarin · 12-14-2003, 01:16 PM

dude, what is up with you and always agreeing with Finwe? any ways, he was not completely destroyed. Since he was turned down by the Valar he was probably. just wandering the earth, with no shape or form, unable to inhabit any body or life form and just existing as a shadow. Like melkor in a way. This is a great example that evil cannot totally be destroyed for good. Since sauron was a Maia after all he couldnt be destroyed. Like the elves, his body was connected to the earth, but in a very different way. His was connected to the land that he destroyed and the elves were connected to the land that Yavanna made for them.

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 01:23 PM

(Hey, I'm not complaining. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

I disagree with you. Sauron wasn't completely destroyed because he didn't pour all of himself into the One Ring. Being a Maia had nothing to do with it. Since a good part of his power was invested in the Ring, when it was destroyed, he was reduced to a mere shadow that could only wander.

As for being bound to the land, you are confusing Sauron with Morgoth. In Morgoth's Ring, it is said that the reason Morgoth cannot be completely destroyed is that he is bound to Arda, having been a mighty influence on it during its creation. Only at the End of Days, in the Dagor Dagorath, when Arda will be destroyed, will Morgoth be completely destroyed. Since Morgoth helped create Arda, by singing in the Ainulindalë, he is forever bound to it, and as long as it endures, he will endure in the Void.

I don't follow your reasoning for the Elves being bound to the land that Yavanna made for them. Yavanna didn't make the land, she made the flora and fauna on it. The reason Elves are bound to Arda is that it is just part of their nature, just as it is part of Man's nature to leave the Circles of Arda after death.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:25 PM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

Tar-Alcarin · 12-14-2003, 01:25 PM

i seem to have been confusing a lot of things lately. LOL [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 01:35 PM

Quite all right. Isn't that what we're all here for, to help each other?

Tar-Alcarin · 12-14-2003, 01:40 PM

Im with you finwelol [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Just making fun of The Perky Ent here. But since sauron is Maia isnt he bound to the earth as well. And is he Aule maia or Melkors Maia?

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 01:46 PM

Sauron was originally a Maia in the train of Aulë. Morgoth tempted him, and brought him over to his following, during the early days of the world. It was definitely before Galadriel was born, because, in the Second Age, when Sauron (as Annatar and Aulendil) went around to all the Elven kingdoms, Galadriel said that she didn't remember any Aulendil in the train of Aulë in Valinor.

I don't believe that it is said anywhere that Maiar are bound to Arda.

Mahal · 12-14-2003, 01:47 PM

Hmm.. I thought I had read somewhere that the spirit of Sauron came to his master behind the doors of the night. I could just be dreaming however.

doug*platypus · 12-14-2003, 04:36 PM

Yeah, I also thought that Sauron has... well I don't know if banished is the right word, but that he ended up in the Void aka the Outer Dark. Morgoth is out there as well, and they're probably plotting some mischief. Eek, scary thought!

As for his continued influence over mankind, I don't think Sauron could literally influence anyone after his demise. However, his influence had already spread far and wide across Middle-Earth. The Easterlings, the Haradrim, the Dunlendings (influenced by Saruman who was influenced by Sauron), and presumably other people that we did not see in the War.

Even if all the armies of Sauron were defeated, the people at home would have been loyal to him. Some of these people I presume would have remained evil, eventually influencing others, and so his malice would continue to permeate throughout the world. Of course that's only my opinion. Maybe I should read Letters again and get the real story.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-14-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Since he was turned down by the Valar he was probably. just wandering the earth, with no shape or form, unable to inhabit any body or life form and just existing as a shadow. Like melkor in a way

I know i am returning to earlier in this topic, but i want to know something. How is this like melkor in a way?!?
I thought that melkor was trapped outside the circles of the world, and it was only his influence that remained. This is nothing like sauron!

05-30-2002, 07:26 PM	#1
Logan Evans Guest Posts: n/a	Sauron goes where??? What ever did happen to Sauron??? I know he was like "connected" to the Ring, but was he destroyed all together when the Ring was cast into Mt. Doom? Or, is there some way he can "come back"??? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

05-30-2002, 08:16 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,685	No, he can't come back. He was not totally destroyed with the Ring, but he was so weakened that he became nothing more than a "shadow of malice" forever unable to ever again take shape. He was permanently rejected by the Valar. That was the whole towering thunder-cloud being blown away by a cold west wind scene in ROTK. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

06-03-2002, 10:06 AM	#5
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 331	Long time no see, Elrian. Glad to see some of your posts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It can be thought that the souls(fea) of the Maia were called to 'The Halls of Mandos' and easily rejected in the same swipe of the hand. __________________ Facebook.

12-12-2003, 08:48 PM	#7
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Going to the original question, he can't come back, although he does not dissapear completely. I think he wanders in darkness, forever [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-12-2003, 09:18 PM	#8
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	This is the point of the book, i think: Evil is not ended, but it does not have any power of its own anymore, all it can do is influence people: power is not influence. I know everyone has different opinions, but this is how i see it. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-13-2003, 07:37 PM	#9
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Well, Sauron may be forever incapable of returning by his own means... And that's the main danger behind Necromancy... As someone said this before, if men had relations with the dead, they face the danger of exposing themselves to greater evil than just mere wraiths... Maybe Sauron, the Necromancer by excelence, could communicate with them... And even posssibly take over the person treating with the dead... I think that THAT is the only way for Sauron to come back after the undoing of the One Ring... __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

12-14-2003, 12:37 PM	#10
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Sauron had poured so much of himself into the One Ring, that when it was destroyed, he was extremely weakened. The most horrible thing he could do now is probably give children in Gondor nightmares. He essentially became nothing. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 01:16 PM	#11
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	dude, what is up with you and always agreeing with Finwe? any ways, he was not completely destroyed. Since he was turned down by the Valar he was probably. just wandering the earth, with no shape or form, unable to inhabit any body or life form and just existing as a shadow. Like melkor in a way. This is a great example that evil cannot totally be destroyed for good. Since sauron was a Maia after all he couldnt be destroyed. Like the elves, his body was connected to the earth, but in a very different way. His was connected to the land that he destroyed and the elves were connected to the land that Yavanna made for them. __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-14-2003, 01:23 PM	#12
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	(Hey, I'm not complaining. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) I disagree with you. Sauron wasn't completely destroyed because he didn't pour all of himself into the One Ring. Being a Maia had nothing to do with it. Since a good part of his power was invested in the Ring, when it was destroyed, he was reduced to a mere shadow that could only wander. As for being bound to the land, you are confusing Sauron with Morgoth. In Morgoth's Ring, it is said that the reason Morgoth cannot be completely destroyed is that he is bound to Arda, having been a mighty influence on it during its creation. Only at the End of Days, in the Dagor Dagorath, when Arda will be destroyed, will Morgoth be completely destroyed. Since Morgoth helped create Arda, by singing in the Ainulindalë, he is forever bound to it, and as long as it endures, he will endure in the Void. I don't follow your reasoning for the Elves being bound to the land that Yavanna made for them. Yavanna didn't make the land, she made the flora and fauna on it. The reason Elves are bound to Arda is that it is just part of their nature, just as it is part of Man's nature to leave the Circles of Arda after death. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:25 PM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 01:25 PM	#13
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	i seem to have been confusing a lot of things lately. LOL [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-14-2003, 01:35 PM	#14
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Quite all right. Isn't that what we're all here for, to help each other? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 01:40 PM	#15
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	Im with you finwelol [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Just making fun of The Perky Ent here. But since sauron is Maia isnt he bound to the earth as well. And is he Aule maia or Melkors Maia? __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-14-2003, 01:46 PM	#16
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Sauron was originally a Maia in the train of Aulë. Morgoth tempted him, and brought him over to his following, during the early days of the world. It was definitely before Galadriel was born, because, in the Second Age, when Sauron (as Annatar and Aulendil) went around to all the Elven kingdoms, Galadriel said that she didn't remember any Aulendil in the train of Aulë in Valinor. I don't believe that it is said anywhere that Maiar are bound to Arda. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 01:47 PM	#17
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	Hmm.. I thought I had read somewhere that the spirit of Sauron came to his master behind the doors of the night. I could just be dreaming however. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

12-14-2003, 04:36 PM	#18
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Yeah, I also thought that Sauron has... well I don't know if banished is the right word, but that he ended up in the Void aka the Outer Dark. Morgoth is out there as well, and they're probably plotting some mischief. Eek, scary thought! As for his continued influence over mankind, I don't think Sauron could literally influence anyone after his demise. However, his influence had already spread far and wide across Middle-Earth. The Easterlings, the Haradrim, the Dunlendings (influenced by Saruman who was influenced by Sauron), and presumably other people that we did not see in the War. Even if all the armies of Sauron were defeated, the people at home would have been loyal to him. Some of these people I presume would have remained evil, eventually influencing others, and so his malice would continue to permeate throughout the world. Of course that's only my opinion. Maybe I should read Letters again and get the real story. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

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