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Old 03-06-2013, 05:24 PM   #961
Mithalwen
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I only got it because I worked backwards...and actually that might be the best way of tackling this one.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:48 PM   #962
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Star doesn't get a thank you initially but gains land in dissarray for an epesse.

Well Epesse is a nickname... sort of...

Now Gandalf has lots of those and is almost an anagram for Gains Land(gains land in disarray)

But he doesn't really fit the clue otherwise.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:56 PM   #963
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Not Gandalf. But you are correct that epesse is the straight clue. Disarray is indicating an anagram but..
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:10 PM   #964
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I think the "thank you" element is either "ta" or "Tar" (conversational word for "thank you"). That's as far as I got last night - this part of the clue was the one that at first had me the most bewildered! (and I may still be wrong, of course).

Also, I didn't know what an epesse was and had to look it up - so I learned something new as well! (Thanks Mith).

I reckoned it might be one of the Numerorean kings/queens with the "Tar" prefix left off. But I didn't have time to look through them all last night. (I guessed it was another "work backwards" clue - that like with minim/Mim you had to remove some letters to get to the answer, rather than add them).

I even tried removing "ta" from the word "star" - and mingling it with "land" or "land in" in disarray (jumbled up). And I nearly, but not quite, got Sirandilas - now, I don't know if that's even a Tolkienian name. I just remember someone once using it as a user name on a Tolkien discussion board.

Nerdanel has "land" in it, but also has several other letters that don't fit. Ditto Thranduil.

So I reckon it might be the name of a country, jumbled up, plus maybe s and r. Hmmmmm ....

I wasn't including "gains" in the anagram, because I thought it just indicated to add land or land in (jumbled up) to sr (star minus ta) ....

Or it could start with EL for star - but that still wouldn't take care of the "thank you" absence thing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:17 PM   #965
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Lots ofvthought but wrong conclusions other than you do add land jumbled up to the first part of the answer. Yes doesn't get means loses in this context but there is word in the clue you have ignored which is vital. Star is part of the clue not part of the answer so anagrams won't help there.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:42 PM   #966
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I didn't ignore "initially," but couldn't find where to use it. Thought I was removing -ta from star, so keeping the initial seemed redundant as I was doing so anyway.

Ah well - as JRRT once said, I am "dead stuck."
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:30 PM   #967
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
i would follow the earlier advice to start at the end of the clue. the star business will fall into place . the answer is not obscure. you dont need to have read HoME
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:49 AM   #968
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There's Anduril, of course, (previously called Narsil), but I don't know if the term epesse is used of swords - and I can't account for the "uri" element.

I don't know if it can be used of eagles either. But in any case Landroval (even if that was a nickname) doesn't have the word "land" in disarray - quite the opposite.

I would take that advice - I just don't know that many epesses.

EDIT:

I wonder if AMANDIL might work - because there was also a Tar-Amandil, so Tar could be left off. And there is land jumbled up, but I don't know what to do with the "ami" letters.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:13 AM   #969
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There's Anduril, of course, (previously called Narsil), but I don't know if the term epesse is used of swords - and I can't account for the "uri" element.
Star=Tauri
Tauri-ta=uri
uri+land=Anduril


Methinks you have it.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:23 AM   #970
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I was just trying to make Felagund work, because that's definitely an epesse!

If Anduril is right, Galadriel got it really, not me.

RE: Are there any Tolkien palindromes beside Mim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
Bob. But I think that's it.

We forgot ODO!
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:50 AM   #971
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If Anduril is right, Galadriel got it really, not me.
No, you got it. I was just working backwards from your answer.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #972
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Neither of you have it. I thought I indicated than thank you was not ta or tar. The clue is not that tricksy and I feel it follows the conventions. I understand epesse to be a secondary name of a personand that is what you are looking for. Further more it is known as a secondary name. It isnt Felagund but it is on a par. I havent been mean and used someone like Gilgalad or Galadriel who are best known by the epesse to the extent that the original name is forgotten.

The cryptic clue is in two distinct parts which simply have to be added together.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:38 PM   #973
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Celebrindal?

Contains "land" and "ele" (star). Not sure about "thank you," unless it is celebrate minus rate - if you rate someone you appreciate them (as you do if you celebrate them).
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:08 PM   #974
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Hurray. It is Celebrindal but you aren' t right on the reasoning quite.

Star was celebrity which lost the initial letters of thank you, t and y to leave celebri.

Land of course turns into ndal.
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:27 PM   #975
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Very clever. I suppose the brilliance of Tolkien's starry universe can blind one to more tawdry things like celebrity.

Here we go, then:

Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:08 PM   #976
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Yes, the pedant in me feels that celebrity like personality is something one may have rather than be..ans in retrospect I realised that it may have been harder for those who, pronounce elvish correctly ...and while I know it is keleb I still mentally read seleb a lot of the time...
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:17 PM   #977
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Very clever. I suppose the brilliance of Tolkien's starry universe can blind one to more tawdry things like celebrity.

Here we go, then:

Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.
What in the.....

I'm having flashback to Saucepanman...

Mutates could indicate an anagram...
I wonder if "Although surrounded by nothing" could be the straight clue working from that it could be an island or the void... something to that effect...
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:49 PM   #978
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I wish he would come back. I hope I won't be the one to pass his post count.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:11 PM   #979
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What in the.....

I'm having flashback to Saucepanman...

Mutates could indicate an anagram...
I wonder if "Although surrounded by nothing" could be the straight clue working from that it could be an island or the void... something to that effect...
1. You're right about "mutates."
2. "Surrounded by nothing" isn't the straight clue.

Quote:
Yes, the pedant in me feels that celebrity like personality is something one may have rather than be..ans in retrospect I realised that it may have been harder for those who, pronounce elvish correctly ...and while I know it is keleb I still mentally read seleb a lot of the time...
It wasn't that. It just didn't occur to me that it might be a name used together with the original name. Names like Turambar, Serinde, Celebrindal and Felagund I kind of think of almost as non-hereditary surnames, although of course they're not. I was looking for a name you only ever see on its own - like Galadriel, who is never called Nerwen Galadriel.

And I meant that stars of the twinkling in the sky variety feature so much in Tolkien - linguistically, literally, in heraldry, in terms of there being names for individual ones, etc - that I went looking in all those places and it didn't occur to me to think of that particular meaning of star.

That's why I'm not very good at cryptic crosswords, even though I like them so much.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:11 PM   #980
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Yes I realised that the other kind of star was more likely and nearly pointed out that it was polysemic. But since the straight clue and anagram had been identified quickly I thought with the benefit of knowing the answer!that itvwoukd come quickly. I just think I can't judge difficulty.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:12 AM   #981
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Ok so... Neldorath is a possibility...

Eldor Red Ol' ....Ol' as in sly Ol' dog a "hip" guy(Stretched that one)

Nath(Could be nothing in another language I doubt it though....)

And it's a forest (In the woods)

So in conclusion I'm wrong...
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:47 AM   #982
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You're right - almost - about where the straight clue is.

But - big clue - the straight clue isn't the woods themselves, but IN the woods.

(Something you might find in the woods).
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:59 AM   #983
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It's something that grows, with an original name given to it by Tolkien - there are very few plants, flowers and trees that Tolkien originally invented and gave names to.

It would almost certainly be found in the woods. It grew in at least two countries with woods in them.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:14 PM   #984
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Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.
Niphredil

Red hip= iphred Nil is nothing
A winter flower
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:33 PM   #985
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Correct! Over to you.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:43 PM   #986
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Correct! Over to you.
to be fair I only got it after you mentioned plants I was going through all the ents I could find.
give me an houre or so
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:00 PM   #987
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"Red hip" was also a kind of hint towards it being a plant/flower - because you get hips and haws in a wood, and they're often red.

Well done anyway!
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:04 PM   #988
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Personally I think this one is prettyn easy but we'll see..

I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #989
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So - is this six separate answers - or is each clue for one letter - or is each one a separate clue and we add them all together?

Unless it's Durin (who kept being "reborn") - but I don't know why a Durin would be sweet or salty!
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:35 PM   #990
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They're seperate answers that lead to the "family" which is a bigger answer.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:34 PM   #991
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Personally I think this one is prettyn easy but we'll see..

I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.
I wondered if this might be the Gamgee family (Sam's generation), because Hamson contains "ham" which can be salty, and Marigold, May (which can mean hawthorn blossom) and Daisy are flower names (smell sweet) (even though marigolds don't have much perfume, and what there is is not that sweet). And because there was probably another Hamson born in a later generation.

There are six in this generation of the family, but the birth order does not fit the clues, and three of them are girls!

Back to the drawing board ....

Unless it's the lords of the Valar ...

Manwe (considered by many the most important), Ulmo (lord of the sea, hence salty), Aule (ease their labour? taught craft to the Noldor) ....

But even with Melkor cast out, there are one two many of them ....
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:20 PM   #992
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HUGE clue ham could be part of the answer... not Hamson just ham...

Oh and I'd also keep hobbits in mind...
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:13 PM   #993
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I considered Hamfast, but Sam's father was one of four children, not six.

After your latest clue I also considered Sam Gamgee's sons, but there were seven of them, not six.

I wonder if it's something to do with the Gamgee side of Sam's Longfather tree:

Hamfast of Gamwich - Wiseman Gamwich - Hob Gammidge - Hobson Gamgee - Hamfast Gamgee - Samwise Gamgee

Samwise was the last of the Gamgees in one sense, because he later changed the family name to Gardner. And one of his sons was called Hamfast, so the eldest of the tree was then (in a sense) born again.

The sixth, Samwise, brings the family together because he unites them with the Cottons again? (As does his sister, Marigold).

But the "sweet and salty" bits don't fit.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:52 PM   #994
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sweet and salty are the two biggest clues to what I'm looking for... I'm afraid to say much more without giving it away... Hobbits have a good deal to do with the answer but hobbits are not the answer.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:25 PM   #995
Galadriel55
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I keep returning to the thought of the Unexpected Party, especially the meal of thereof. Here is a list of foods mentioned (without repetitions):

tea
cake
beer
seed cake
ale
porter
coffee
buttered scones
red wine
raspberry jam
apple tart
mince pies
cheese
pork pie
salad
eggs
chicken
pickles
biscuit

Now thati's significantly more than seven, but what if you take, f.ex., only the drinks? Then you get tea, beer, ale, porter, coffee, wine - which is the right number. But they don't make much sense with the descriptions.

If the answer is PIES/CAKES, it makes more sense, but there are not enough of them, unless you include the tarts/scones.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:43 PM   #996
Morsul the Dark
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You guys are hovering right around the answers... G55 you almost got it just went a tad too specific...

I think the third clue/answer could break it wide open...
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:58 AM   #997
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Tea makes sense, G55, because it can be sweet when desired. (I can't stand sweet tea, but some people drink it that way!) And hobbits are very English in considering tea to be important. (I myself drink gallons of the stuff!)

HANG ON!

Is it hobbit meals? Six a day?


BREAKFAST
I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired


Considered by many the most important meal of the day. Don't know if hobbits had breakfast cereal , but they might put jam or marmalade on their toast, or treacle on their porridge (which is a cereal, I suppose).

SECOND BREAKFAST? MID-MORNING SNACK?
I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Now - Tolkien didn't say hobbits have second breakfast - it's just that Bilbo has one after he clears up after thirteen dwarves and one wizard.

But a mid-morning snack is perhaps more likely to be savoury than sweet.

ELEVENSES? DINNER?
Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known


The problem I have here is that it's the film that mentions this, not Tolkien. Although Elevenses are mentioned in stories about the traditionally English way of life. I first came across the term in the Paddington Bear books.

Twice the one sounds more like dinner, though.

DINNER
Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.


I suppose hobbits - and people - break from work for dinner.

Hobbits have dinner twice a day when they can get it - although I don't know if they take them consecutively.

TEA
I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits


Sometimes have biscuits at tea (although I'd consider them more of a supper thing).

SUPPER
I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.


The last until breakfast, the oldest brother.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:35 AM   #998
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That sounds plausible but the debate about the nature of meals and their naming would open a big can of worms.. for me certainly I would be thinking of Breakfast (second breakfast ) elevenses, lunch, tea (definitely a biscuit thing and only much more on special occasions) then dinner/supper .....
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervinca Took View Post
Tea makes sense, G55, because it can be sweet when desired. (I can't stand sweet tea, but some people drink it that way!) And hobbits are very English in considering tea to be important. (I myself drink gallons of the stuff!)

HANG ON!

Is it hobbit meals? Six a day?


BREAKFAST
I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired


Considered by many the most important meal of the day. Don't know if hobbits had breakfast cereal , but they might put jam or marmalade on their toast, or treacle on their porridge (which is a cereal, I suppose).

SECOND BREAKFAST? MID-MORNING SNACK?
I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Now - Tolkien didn't say hobbits have second breakfast - it's just that Bilbo has one after he clears up after thirteen dwarves and one wizard.

But a mid-morning snack is perhaps more likely to be savoury than sweet.

ELEVENSES? DINNER?
Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known


The problem I have here is that it's the film that mentions this, not Tolkien. Although Elevenses are mentioned in stories about the traditionally English way of life. I first came across the term in the Paddington Bear books.

Twice the one sounds more like dinner, though.

DINNER
Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.


I suppose hobbits - and people - break from work for dinner.

Hobbits have dinner twice a day when they can get it - although I don't know if they take them consecutively.

TEA
I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits


Sometimes have biscuits at tea (although I'd consider them more of a supper thing).

SUPPER
I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.


The last until breakfast, the oldest brother.
Twice the one 11 elevensies...

Lunch break

Most poeple sit down as a family for supper.

Correct! Over to you my good friend.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #1000
Pervinca Took
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I suppose the second breakfast is bacon and eggs, then.

I like the "twice the one" clue - very clever. Your clue kind of mixes culinary hobbitlore, culinary filmlore and culinary real world lore!

I think it may also win an award for the longest cryptic clue ever published! More like a riddle. Very good, though.

Galadriel, it was your list of foods that triggered the answer for me, and I'm sure if you'd been online at the time you'd have got it. But anyway, here's the next cryptic clue:

Bloom with the vivacity of French gold.
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