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Old 06-09-2004, 11:41 AM   #1
Elianna
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Tolkien Northmen

We have maybe three paragraphs about the Northmen in Appen. A. Do we know any more about them than what can be gleaned from those paragraphs?

If the Rohirrim were based on some Germanic tribe, what were the Northmen based on? Mongols, Tatars, Cossacks? The Northmen were vaguely related to the Rohirrim, so maybe the Eorlingas were the Visigoths, and the Northmen Ostrogoths. I of course understand that Tolkien wrote no allegory, but it is supposed to be a sort of British history.
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Old 06-10-2004, 02:30 PM   #2
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1420!

Northmen? I have never heard about them or if I did I have forgotten it. I would have no idea but if they are related to the Rohirrim maybe they were the first ones who started breeding horses.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:49 PM   #3
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Eye

You mean the Forodwaith who live by the Ice Bay of Forochel? (Why do I know that?!) Personally, I've always believed they were based on the Vikings.
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Old 06-11-2004, 08:38 AM   #4
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Now I remember them I knew they would be buried somewhere in my mind. I also thought they were kinda like vikings.
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:40 PM   #5
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Tolkien

No, no, no, not them. Not the Forodwaith. The ones that lived in Rhovanion. One, Vidugavia, called himself their leader, but was actually only the ruler of the largest tribe. His daughter Vidumavi married Eldacar, the crown Prince of Gondor.

I don't know, the Forodwaith more readily bring to mind the Inuits, with their ice-skates and igloos, but maybe the Vikings had these too, and I'm just being an American...
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Old 06-14-2004, 10:16 AM   #6
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These Northmen were in fact the ancestors of the Rohirrim !
After the invasion of the Wainriders and the wars which involved Gondor and their allies, the Northmen, for nearly 100 years, some of them fled to Dale and merged with the people there, some took refuge in Gondor, and the rest (under Marhwini, a descendant of Vidugavia) passed north and settled in the Vales of Anduin. This was the beginning of the othod.

This is stated in Unfinished Tales "Cirion and Eorl"

In the Notes to that Chapter, Christopher Tolkien writes about the origin of their names:
Quote:
It is an interesting fact (...) that the names of the early kings and princes of the Northmen and the othod are Gothic in form, not Old English (Anglo-Saxon) as in the case of Lod, orl, and the later Rohirrim. Vidugavia is latinized in spelling representing Gothic Widugauja (wood-dweller) , a recorded Gothic name, and similarly Vidumavi Gothic Widumawi (Woodmaiden). Marhwini and Marhari contain the Gothic word marh (horse), corresponding to Old English mearh plural mearasthe word used in LotR for the horses of Rohan.(.........)

Since, as is explained in Appendix F (II), the language of Rohan was "made to resemble ancient English" the names of the ancestors of the Rohirrim are cast into the forms of the earliest recorded Germanic language.
I hope this answers you question, Elianna. As you see, you were right with your guess about the Goths! However, its not the people, only the languages that Tolkien took for a model!
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Old 06-14-2004, 11:29 AM   #7
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Tolkien

Thanks so much Guinevere! I actually have Unfinished Tales. Is there much more in that? Or anywhere? I don't remember any extra about them in HoME v 9 about the Apps.
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Old 06-17-2004, 12:09 PM   #8
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Pipe Unfinished Tales

Give the Cirion and Eorl chapter a read. Its good.
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Old 06-18-2004, 04:50 PM   #9
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not really a chapter....but rohirrim were described like the Norse, seeing how they took pride in their dragon boats and the rohirrim took pride in their horses...Beowulf is a book to read if you like mythology and rohirrim
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Old 06-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #10
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I did read Cirion and Eorl (and The Disaester (sp?) of Gladden Fields too, just for the fun of it). It was very helpful. Seems like my Goth idea was best, if you kust look at similar histories. Anyone know what the Goths looked like?
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Old 06-20-2004, 03:59 PM   #11
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:52 PM   #12
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goth was more of a fad then a race, i still don't think northmen were thought like goth, more like Norse...you can think whatever you want, but majority will probaly think as vikings...
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:29 PM   #13
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Silmaril I'm a Newbie!

After Reading many of the posts I am shocked and dismayed at the way people are demoting the newbie status!
I am a newbie and proud I would also like to say that after reading 'The Hobbit' in four days, whilst I was 7 years old, I would like to consider myself an avid reader and a fan of Tolkien's literary works. I regret to say that even with past experiences of Tolkien's genius, I could not bring myself to finish 'The Two Towers' in any less that a few months, and still not finish! I have figured out that this is due to watching the movies (awesome!) beforehand. This ruined it for me because I was used to the modern aspects of these literary masterpieces, and was not prepared for the more shakespearian verse.

I wish to say hello! to any other unfortunate newbies out there!

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Old 06-21-2004, 03:05 AM   #14
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Actually, facetious comments aside, the Goths weren't a fad, they were a 3rd/4th century tribe. You can read about them here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths

So, you can see that the Goths were a Germanic tribe of very early history, and the Anglo-Saxons were dated a few centuries later, (8th/9th century). This fits in, as Guinevere explained earlier, with what Tolkien was doing giving the earlier Northmen Gothic names and the people of Rohan, hundreds of years later, Anglo-Saxon ones.

Vikings were also a Germanic culture, and thus related, but their geographical and linguistic origins were rather different, they came from Scandinavia whereas the Goths and the later Anglo-Saxons were from mainland Europe.
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Old 07-05-2004, 10:01 PM   #15
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Dark-Eye

each Race had their up and down times...half of England has Viking blood because they conquered it... still i've read in numerous places that Rohirrim, descendants of Northmen were based on Tolkiens major, Norse...
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Old 07-14-2004, 08:39 AM   #16
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Tolkien

But does anyone know what the Goths looked like? Half of what I'm trying to do is draw a picture.
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Old 07-14-2004, 09:16 AM   #17
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Here's one version!
http://th2001.asterix.free.fr/Enigme..._teleferic.jpg
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Old 07-18-2004, 01:56 PM   #18
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Tolkien

yeah....thanks....
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