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Old 10-11-2004, 12:12 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 05 - The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

This is one of the most dramatic chapters in the book. It continues with glimpses of Dwarven culture, beginning with the Book of Mazarbul. Its account of the defeat of the Moria dwarves not only tells of the past events, it builds the tension, foreshadowing the danger to come. The drumbeats that are mentioned throughout much of the chapter also add to the suspense. There is fighting, ending only partially successfully and leading to another glimpse of Gandalf’s true power. Frodo’s mithril shirt proves its worth.

The Balrog is undoubtedly the most important “character” in this chapter, though it speaks not a word and is described in vague terms that still cause much debate and discussion among Tolkien fans. It’s interesting to note that the two members of the Fellowship who stand by Gandalf till the end are the Men – even Legolas the Elf, who has showed his superior abilities in other situations, cannot stand up to the Balrog.

The chapter ends in tragedy, though eight members of the Fellowship escape.

I can remember shock and disbelief as my reaction upon first reading of Gandalf’s death. How did and does this chapter affect you? Why is it so important to the plot?
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:43 AM   #2
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In the days before Priestley had caught & bottled that demon which exists in the shape of carbonic acid gas, when the miner was smitten dead by an invisible foe in the deep bowels of the earth it was natural that his awe struck companions should ascribe the mysterious blow to a supernatural enemy. When the workman was assailed by what we now call fire-damp, which hurled him & his companions right & left upon the dark rocks, scorching, burning & killing, those who survived were not likely to question the existence of the mine fiend. Hence arose the superstition - now probably quite extinct - of basilisks in the mines, which destroyed with their terrible gaze. When the explanation came, that the thing which killed the miner was what he breathed, not what he saw; & when chemistry took the fire-damp from the realm of faerie, the basilisk & the fire fiend had not a leg to stand on’.
(Wirt Sikes ‘British Goblins’ (1880). Quoted in Lewis & Currie, ‘The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien’)
To what extent these ideas affected Tolkien in the depiction of the Balrog - at least as far as his choice of having a Balrog present in Moria - is impossible to answer. I think that someone as interested as Tolkien was in folklore, would have been aware of Sikes’ book, & of the phenomenon of fire-damp (the explosive gas which builds up in mineworkings, which is mostly methane) & choke-damp (the poisonous gas, principally carbon di-oxide).

Its certainly interesting that Tolkien would have a monster of shadow (=choke-damp?) & flame (=fire-damp?) as Durin’s bane, as these are the very things, along with falls, which miners, like the dwarves, would have feared most.

The Balrog itself has been discussed almost to death, but I think that’s because the encounter between it & Gandalf is so symbolic, & Gandalf’s statements so enigmatic - especially to anyone who has not read the Silmarillion - what is the ‘Secret Fire’? And why is it that the ‘Dark Fire’ cannot pass it - because Gandalf seems not to be bragging here about his superior strength, but rather making a metaphysical statement of fact. But i won’t go any further into that at the moment.

I would like to quote from an article in a recent Amon Hen, about Tolkien’s use of adjectives:

Quote:
Interestingly, in Gandalf’s fight with the Balrog only a few adjectives are used. In connection with the Balrog itself the word ‘dark’ features predominantly: it is described as a ‘dark figure’ & the eerie silence that falls at its appearance is introduced as follows: ‘then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind. I like the use of ‘dark’ in conjunction with ‘wind’. It imparts to me a sense of stiffling heat...the unusual use of the word ‘dark’ makes a kind of instinctive sense. When Gandalf addresses the Balrog for the first time in their confronation, he says: ‘the Dark Fire will not avail you’. Again this provides an interesting juxtaposition that is frighteningly evocative: there seems no sense of warmth & comfort about the notion of a ‘dark fire’.
The other adjective repeatedly used in this sequence in direct contrast with ‘dark’ is ‘white’. It is combined with other words such as ‘cold’ & ‘bright’. Thus, Glamdring is described as gleaming ‘cold & white’. But ‘white’, like ‘dark’, is also used to describe fire in this scene: the Balrog’s fire is dark, that of Glamdring is white, & when Gandalf destroys the bridge ‘a blinding sheet of white flame’ springs up. the imagery of ‘dark’ versus ‘white’ is stark & straightforward, but very powerful. My own favourite image in this scene, however, is that of Gandalf standing fast on the bridge: ‘grey & bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm’. (‘Modifying Words’, Beruthiel’s Pet. Amon Hen 183
.

One final observation - this is the first chapter without any verse.
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:25 AM   #3
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One final observation - this is the first chapter without any verse.
Verrry interesting indeed, davem! I think it has a reason in the darkness of the situation and the active fighting. It takes leisure to produce poetry; a poem about danger will not normally be composed while the situation is still in progress, since all concentration is needed for the escape. The next poem is recited on the outskirts of Lothlórien, in relative safety. And the mourning poem for Gandalf is composed there - isn't there a line that goes something like "My grief is too fresh (or deep) for words"? It takes time for such deep-cutting events to settle enough to be put into poetry.
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Old 10-11-2004, 09:27 AM   #4
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This may just be my favorite chapter in the book. The image that sticks in one's mind is of course Gandalf and the Balrog facing each other on the bridge. But that encounter is itself very brief - it only takes up about two pages. Actually, the chapter as a whole is rather short - eleven and a half pages in my edition - despite the fairly high number of events that occur. There is the reading and discussion of the Book of Mazarbul, the preparation for an attack, the attack itself, flight from the chamber, the bridge, the confrontation with the Balrog, and finally flight into the sunlight. This is in sharp contrast to the preceding chapters, which generally dealt with one obstacle at a time.

I recently had the experience of listening to The Fellowship of the Ring on tape. For the most part, I found that I preferred the written version - passages that came across as quite beautiful in writing sometimes fell flat. The one major exception was this chapter. There's something in not just the literal pacing (i.e. of the story) but also in the pacing of the words and sentences that is really drawn out when it's read aloud. Perhaps part of it is the continual "Doom doom". But there is also a shortening of sentences and an intensification of language as the climax of the chapter approaches. Whatever it is, the chapter flows inexorably toward the confrontation.

As Davem pointed out, few adjectives are used in the confrontation. And yet it comes across to me very vividly. I feel as if I can see every detail of the scene with perfect clarity. I don't know whether others share this experience, or whether its just me.
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Old 10-11-2004, 12:52 PM   #5
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I've got a few things to add to the discussion, not least because I find this a terrifying chapter, but first, a quick post about the pages from the Book of Mazarbul. A new edition of LOTR is soon to be published (it was mentioned here) which includes the reproductions of these pages, as Tolkien originally intended (the costs were too highg when LOTR first went to print). Well, if anyone either cannot afford or cannot wait for the new edition, I recently got hold of a 2005 50th anniversary Tolkien calendar, which has these reproductions printed within.

Anyway, a quick thought. Davem, the comments about the 'fire-damp' experienced by the miners was fascinating, and it's entirely possible that Tolkien would have known about such ideas, but for another reason, maybe? What made me think this was his experiences in the trenches - possibly he had some experience of the miners who dug underground tunnels (as seen in Birdsong) during WWI and had heard their tales and superstitions?
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:57 PM   #6
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In this chapter the strengths and weaknesses of many characters are revealed.

Frodo shows his strength in the Chamber of Mazarbul by attacking the troll, and without even realizing it at first.

Quote:
Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. "The Shire!" he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot.
It is as though he does so unconsciously, as if he suddenly understands the part he must play to aid his companions.

Sam, too, shows his ability as a fighter:

Quote:
A quick duck had saved him; and he had felled his orc: a sturdy thrust with his Barrow-blade. A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it.
A far cry from just chucking an apple at Sandyman, as we saw earlier in FotR!

Gandalf, being one of the central characters in this chapter, shows his strength through being able to fend off the Balrog, but we understand that his power has limits when he returns to his companions after trying to seal the Chamber. He says that he has met his match, and that he is "rather shaken." We can only imagine what kind of force it could take to shake someone so steadfast and powerful as Gandalf, which foreshadows the future danger to come.

Legolas, who has previously seemed to be without fault as far as being collected under pressure, drops his arrow in fear of the Balrog. To add a bit of levity to this discussion, I'd like to point out this lovely line:

Quote:
"Ai! ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"
That's all well and good on a page, but say it aloud and it just makes you chuckle a bit.

Since the Book of Mazarbul is uncovered in this chapter, and Lalwendë mentioned that some of the pages will be in a future edition, here's a link to pictures of a few of them: Leaves From the Book of Mazarbul. It may, for some crazy reason, ask you for a user name and password --the site has never done this to me before, but today it did. Just type Tolkien for both.
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Old 10-17-2004, 12:41 PM   #7
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1420!

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Or that Elves and Dwarves knew more about Balrogs than Men.
SpM, ahhh that is a big possibility, probably even a bigger one then mine .

Also, thanks for the quote, that as well makes sense. There are those consciously aware that Frodo has the ring, The Wraiths, Saruman and Saurons men (with them they just know their master wants a hobbit and to give their belongings back to their master, but they are aware that they have some sort of valuable item to give to their master), and there are those unconsciously aware that Frodo has the ring, but they are still drawn to it (Moria orcs, The Watcher). Definately doesn't bode well for Frodo.

I would ask a question, but it would be off topic for this thread, so I'll just make an own thread for it.
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Old 10-17-2004, 10:18 PM   #8
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Tar-Ancalime wrote:
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What you're describing is very much like the development section of a sonata-allegro form
That's a very interesting analogy. However, I'm more inclined (for whatever reason) to think of the book II as still being exposition, and the material analogous to the development beginning with book III. For in book II we have the Fellowship whole; in book III they divide and the various subplots proceed contrapuntally. And there's something about about "The Breaking of the Fellowship" that reminds me of that wonderful moment in many a Haydn symphony when a burst of sudden minor chord pulls you into the development.

Meaningless musings, perhaps, but so be it.
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:23 AM   #9
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A bit late to plunge into discussion, so I won't do it. But I would like you to take a look at

The Bridge of Khazad-dûm by the Barrow-Wight

It does not discuss the chapter per se, but deals with interesting option of possible merchant traffic and economics (to be more precise: how entire kngdom is supposed to get the stock it needs to feed inhabitants via single narrow bridge?)

Gandalf and Balrog were discussed in many threads. Among the recent, I may recommend

Wielding the Flame of Anor by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Balrogs per se:

Post #33 of One hand tied behind their backs by Mithadan

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Old 10-20-2004, 03:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
It’s interesting to note that the two members of the Fellowship who stand by Gandalf till the end are the Men – even Legolas the Elf, who has showed his superior abilities in other situations, cannot stand up to the Balrog.
To go back to this, earlier, point. There is also a later comment from Encaitare on Legolas' fear. I think perhaps I read the Elf's reaction in a different manner - not cowardice, but a deeper understanding of the danger. This is certainly true of Boromir, whose courage in this scene can be seen to overcome his practicality - this is due, perhaps, to a lesser knowledge of the foe they faced. The Elf knew fully how much danger they were in and how unlikely they were to escape unharmed. I also read the passage believing Legolas had some foreknowedge of what would befall Gandalf. Tolkien and Gandalf liberally spread the word through the chapter that bad news is afoot, and one would imagine the Elf to be more finely tuned to such rumblings.

A lesser, secondary point on Aragorn - who may be, we are led to suspect, a greater being in spirit than Legolas in any case. I'm thinking of the scene with Aragorn and the struggle for the Palantir.
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Old 10-20-2004, 11:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rimbaud
A lesser, secondary point on Aragorn - who may be, we are led to suspect, a greater being in spirit than Legolas in any case. I'm thinking of the scene with Aragorn and the struggle for the Palantir.
I thought you were going to say his showdown with the Mouth of Sauron (also rather impressive). Glad you brought up the palantir; thanks.

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Oy! Since when does a dwarf want to learn Elvish? :P
I think as artisans, they needed to be able to fulfill what the customers wanted. Knowing various runic systems would be a part of that.
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Old 10-25-2004, 02:20 AM   #12
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Pipe I came here but to pull a Heren, or two.

But the real Istarion beat me to the Wielding thread! Fiddlesticks! Foiled again.

First, just one comment.

I find it odd (and slightly amusing) that Dwarves obsessed over defence from an outside attack, the Bridge of Khazad-dûm being evidence of this mentality. They did not think anyone would attack from the inside, as the Balrog had done, suddenly appearing in their mithril mines, then kicking their butts to Erebor and beyond.

It seems that this reflects the weakness of the Dwarves as a race. They could endure much hardship brought about by external circumstances (indeed, Aulë designed them to thrive in the world of Morgoth’s day), but they fell from their own follies, especially lust, be it for the Silmaril, or mithril.

Having had my say, I’ll now pull the aforementioned Heren.

Here (Last Hope for Moria RPG) is the Barrowdown’s vision of what might have happened during Balin’s quest for Moria. (Shameless plug: I was there!)
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:16 AM   #13
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Eye Now, we journey back into the mists of time...

For moving forward slightly in the CbC-project, let us see what we have in this chapter.

Although not very long (I managed to read it now during a journey to school and from school by a bus, and it did not ruin the effect of the chapter, quite the opposite, and it made my day a lot better), this chapter is filled with events and mainly, with events of deep impact. But let us start from the beginning.

I remember I always liked the part when Gandalf reads the Book of Mazarbul. I used to know (and maybe I could even now, if I tried) to quote it from memory (in Czech, though, as that was how I read it the most times). And I even tried to make the Book myself, with all these scratches and other things where they should be, just guided by the text. Well of course, I was about ten years old by that time, I made it from an old notebook, but it was a pice of craft by itself, definitely Isn't it interesting, however, and don't you think the way Gandalf reads it (trying to decipher the individual words and such) makes the reading more appealing? And it is also so sad - I at least remember it felt so sad to me when I read it first that long time ago. All these poor Dwarves (lots of them unknown except for this). And not to speak of Ori and Óin (and Balin...) who were my favourite ones (at least Ori and Balin definitely were. Although Ori not least also because of the fact that he wrote in Elvish script ).

I have to once again confess there is one thing I properly realised only now - that the lake reached as far as the door, and that's why the Dwarves could not get out of the Western Gate, they probably tried to get out by there, and the Watcher killed Óin (!Oh poor one! I really did not realise - he probably grabbed him by one of these tentacles of his and dragged him underwater!). I knew all the words, even what Gimli says to that, I could quote that if I was asked, but I did not understand what that means first, and later I did not actually stop to think about it. Only now I did. Odd.

In the middle of the reading, the Company is surprised - however, they surely defend themselves! I am actually quite shocked by the fact that Sam kills an Orc by himself. Just think of it, it's not like collecting potatoes. We are not in a braque-fantasy world or in a movie where a young lad is given a sword and immediately defeats five bandits. Sam could have been dead as well. And Frodo almost was - while, speaking of it, I never took this scene as serious as it probably was supposed to look. Well of course the reader knows about the mithril shirt, but he normally won't think about it (?) or maybe he would be intended to forget about it at the moment and think Frodo dead (?) but in any case, I never took it like that. I never worried about Frodo at this moment, unlike Aragorn and company, and it was not that I would know about the mithril shirt (I would belong to the first group, I did not even think about it).

The encounter with the Balrog "through the locked door" is what I really liked the most now - although on first reading, I was more interested by the more "visible" thing like the last encounter. Nowadays I like more this: Gandalf standing guard atop the stairs, his "exchange" with the "thing" inside, the dark cloud in the room, the "word of Command" (whatever that is).

Please note how the escape from the room (not speaking about the encounter itself, like the Cave-troll, which was also a thing I liked on first readings, when Frodo hit him by the Sting - btw did you realise the Cave-trolls don't have toes? Why, I'd wonder? And note that Boromir's blade is a little damaged after this encounter ) differs a lot from the movie adaptation, and I am not going to continue on here what I think about the portrayal, but just on this reading I realised how fantastic it is in the book, it is all in a hurry, but in total darkness and in silence - I really liked the atmosphere.

And now at last we have the Bridge. Let me note what I noticed, that when they arrive to the Bridge, Frodo is described to "suddenly see a black chasm". That sort of reminded me of the name of Moria itself: had the text been in Elvish, I wonder, would in this place have been written "and suddenly Frodo saw moria"? Funnily enough, it reminded me of the theory of fractals, if anyone heard about it - in this case, one could say that parts of things look like the things themselves. The encounter on the Bridge, in some way, reflects Moria as whole, don't you think?

I don't actually recall whether I was sad because of the loss of Gandalf, or whether it shocked me, or whether I missed him - but since I don't remember it, probably not? It happens so fast, anyway? But what definitely moved me was not the loss of Gandalf itself, but the last... well... paragraph. I mean the whole part after "Fly, you fools" until the end of chapter. It is so sad - and even now, really, it moved me deeply.

And a last thing the drums - they make sort of a refrain in this chapter, from the beginning to the end, however their meaning slowly changes. First, it is something like a thread, then it is a signal of the enemies coming, then it is only something like a "background theme music" and also a remind that the enemies are not gone yet, and in the end, it is sort of a... statement. Summing up of what happened. It's really well done that the drums are there.

P.S. Balrogs don't have wings. (A conclusion made in isolated way, from this one particular reading.)
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:47 PM   #14
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Sting

Balrogs *don't* have wings--such has always been my take, so I shall put that here just in case the old coal still has enough fire to kindle some reaction.

The Book of Mazarbul, though I think its presentation would appeal to a wide variety of readers, really is the sort of passage that tells you about its author: this is a damaged, historically important manuscript, with loving detail lavished upon it by Tolkien--to the point of making facsimile. Most other authors would not have gone to such detail--and, if they had a Book of Mazarbul at all, I doubt this would be its last appearance: sending it off with Gimli would be a Chekhov's Gun for a later revelation of... something.

A detail I don't remember from my previous readings is Boromir's horn-call, an event with a definite force here. It gives us a trifecta of horn-calls from Boromir: a heroically brash one on the departure from Rivendell, a heroically defiant one here, and a heroically tragic one at Amon Hen.

It also struck me that, wolves or Nazgûl aside, this is the first battle we see Aragorn in, and he's clearly a badass with a mighty sword. Frodo is too, though Tolkien's slyer about that: Frodo's strike against the troll is more effective than Boromir's, and his decision to strike in the first place is fearless: not what you necessarily expect from hobbits, and something to remember much later when considering the later Frodo's pacifism.
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Old 09-02-2018, 03:26 PM   #15
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I can't say I was surprised by the death in this chapter. Since leaving Rivendell, it's been leading us to death: from all the foreboding words, to the wolves, the watcher, the orcs, the Fellowship has had a lot of brushes with death.

Tolkien had convinced me (unlike Jackson's movies) this journey through Moria was filled with very real and dangerous threats to every member of the Fellowship. Even Gandalf once he says that he's never felt a challenge from someone like the one he faced over the door. I mean this is someone who in the previous chapter chided Boromir for not knowing what he was talking about in comparing Moria and Mordor, and saying he had been through Sauron's dungeons in Dol Guldur, now there was a power in Moria that he's never felt before.

The power of the Ring, while it's not (to my recollection) brought up in this chapter, it's power to draw evil to it. I wondered years ago about the Great orc's charge on Frodo...how the orc ducks Aragorn's blow and is strong enough to actually drive Boromir backwards and get at Frodo. Not only are the orcs here presented as a deadly threat, but I wondered if the Ring caused this berserker-like frenzy in the orc. Because the orc's sole purpose here is directed at Frodo, it shows the agility in dodging Aragorn's strike, the strength to drive Boromir back, and once it reaches Frodo and wounds him, it's like the fury suddenly dissipates. Like "Knife in the Dark," when the Witch-King wounds Frodo and the Ringwraiths withdraw, believing their mission has (or soon will be) accomplished. The sudden fury of strength and agility in this orc leaves:

Quote:
Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.
Then a bit later, Frodo's mithril vest saves him again as an orc arrow bounces off, and another arrow pierces Gandalf's hat...you start to wonder how many escapes from death, how much "luck" does the Fellowship have?

While it is a common fantasy trope to kill the old and wise "mentor figure" to the main protagonist, I distinctly remember being surprised it was Gandalf who died here. That feeling, still having The Hobbit Gandalf firmly cemented in my head when first reading The Lord of the Rings. The Gandalf who it is said right at the start of The Hobbit:

Quote:
"We are met to discuss our plans, our ways, means, policy and devices. We shall soon before the break of day start on a long journey, a journey from which some of us, or perhaps all of us (except our friend and counselor, the ingenious wizard Gandalf) may never return." - An Unexpected Party
But as mentioned on this re-read and in previous CbC posts, this Gandalf is not the infallible Gandalf from The Hobbit. And in fact his death is needed, but not to serve as the fantasy trope to leave Frodo without the "mentor figure," but it was needed for Aragorn's story. It is Aragorn who has to be the primary "mentor" figure for Frodo. Frodo's pure joy when finding out Aragorn is going with him, even if it's just for a certain amount of time. Aragorn takes Gandalf's place for the hobbits in guiding them from Bree to Rivendell. And as long as Gandalf is in the Fellowship, Aragorn is going to defer to Gandalf's judgment and guidance. He might privately disagree with Gandalf, but he ultimately defers to Gandalf. Aragorn is actually the true mentor and guide in Book I, and he can't be that in Book II, as long as Gandalf is with the Fellowship.
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
But as mentioned on this re-read and in previous CbC posts, this Gandalf is not the infallible Gandalf from The Hobbit. And in fact his death is needed, but not to serve as the fantasy trope to leave Frodo without the "mentor figure," but it was needed for Aragorn's story. It is Aragorn who has to be the primary "mentor" figure for Frodo. Frodo's pure joy when finding out Aragorn is going with him, even if it's just for a certain amount of time. Aragorn takes Gandalf's place for the hobbits in guiding them from Bree to Rivendell. And as long as Gandalf is in the Fellowship, Aragorn is going to defer to Gandalf's judgment and guidance. He might privately disagree with Gandalf, but he ultimately defers to Gandalf. Aragorn is actually the true mentor and guide in Book I, and he can't be that in Book II, as long as Gandalf is with the Fellowship.
I think this is spot-on, but only one-half of the binocular vision. Aragorn isn't just the mentor: he's also a protagonist in his own right. I think you're right that it's not Frodo who loses his mentor figure--it's Aragorn.

After all, Aragorn's role is the story is that of the classic hero-turned-into-a-supporting-character-as-a-subversion-of-expectations. As the classic hero, it is absolutely fitting that he lose his mentor here. The subversion of expectations bit comes back down the road (down the river, actually) when Frodo--the nonconventional hero made the central hero--doesn't lose Aragorn but chooses to leave him. This, ironically enough, sets Aragorn free to actually be the hero rather than the secondary character from then until the plots rejoin.
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