The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-04-2011, 06:04 AM   #1
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
Were Dwarves attracted to Elves?

I was reading HoME Vol. II today, and I came across this line in The Nauglafring: "This do we ask...each a fair maiden of the woodland Elves to fare away with us to our homes."

Well, men will be men, I suppose, but I thought the Dwarves were too proud for that kind of thing. Though it might just explain Gimli's obess–er–respect–for Galadriel.

It is very probable that I am asking a stupid question and have overlooked something rather obvious. I do that a lot.

PS - If they were attracted to Elves, then were they also attracted to humans?
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil

Last edited by Galadriel; 05-04-2011 at 06:08 AM.
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 07:04 AM   #2
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Well, I think it's questionable that such a line would have survived as part of the Red Book, post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth.

Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.

But if so, that still doesn't mean Tolkien would have retained this line from The Book of Lost Tales.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 07:34 AM   #3
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,390
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.
In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 07:57 AM   #4
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,290
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 09:20 AM   #5
blantyr
Wight
 
blantyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
blantyr is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Leaf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.
Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?
blantyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 10:02 AM   #6
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr View Post
Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?
Not that I've heard of, but the thought could be a little disturbing...
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 03:07 PM   #7
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.
I would agree it wasn't Galadriel's beauty alone, but still Gimli found her very fair, which to my mind speaks to this much: to others, Dwarven women looked very much like Dwarven men (including beards), and Gimli finding Galadriel so fair indicates (to me) that Dwarves, again at least some, can find other females -- outside of female dwarves -- attractive.

Gimli's infatuation, as a whole, for Galadriel might be a bit of a different consideration than looking at the more specific 'physical attraction' possibility.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 03:31 PM   #8
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,290
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
I don't think Gimi's love for Galadriel was one of physical attraction. It's more like... being fascinated over a wiser and greater friend... something of that sort, I just can't get it out right. It's more of reverence than love in a way.

Possibly the dwarves needed some women - any women - because a lack of their own kind? I recall that they had very few females.

I haven't read HOME II, so I don't really know what's going on when the line was said...
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 04:01 PM   #9
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 2,903
Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Pitchwife is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.
__________________
The 21st century is when everything changes, you've got to be ready.
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 05:54 AM   #10
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.
I had a hunch that that was the case. Well, it's clear now. A little...
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 06:06 AM   #11
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Well explained Pitchwife.

And again (for clarity in the thread), I'm not suggesting Gimli's infatuation was only due to Galadriel's great physical beauty, but that surely he found her physically 'attractive' as well -- and considering what I would characterize as a notable difference (from a Mannish perspective) between dwarf-women, who looked like dwarf-men to Men's eyes, and the beauty of Galadriel, I still would find it odd that Gimli only found Galadriel fair because of other factors...

... and somewhat odd if only Gimli could find an Elven woman fair. But that rather specific point doesn't, in any event, mean that the Dwarves of Moria were swooning everytime they spied an Elven woman in Eregion!
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 09:41 AM   #12
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.
Perfectly explained, Pitcher.

The thought I had was of the dwarfs in Norse mythology, who would frequently lust after goddesses and whatnot, irrespective of stature. *paging Mithalwen to make some jape about 'size' and the degree to which it matters
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 11:50 AM   #13
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,745
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
But I was going to make some jest -I mean a seriously scholarly point - about beards. Are you trying to get me banned? Not that I have any idea to what you mean
__________________
I see dead people.
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 11:53 AM   #14
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

It doesn't matter how long I'm away from the Downs: I know you'll be there when such discussions pop up.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:06 AM   #15
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,959
Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Thinlómien is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Thinlómien
Maybe Gimli's admiration for Galadriel's beauty was (at least partly) similar to other Dwarven love of beautiful things - such as the love for precious stones, mithril or the dark waters of Kheled-zaram - rather than similar to an average Dwarf male's admiration for a beautiful Dwarf female.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 09:13 AM   #16
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,390
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Maybe Gimli's admiration for Galadriel's beauty was (at least partly) similar to other Dwarven love of beautiful things - such as the love for precious stones, mithril or the dark waters of Kheled-zaram - rather than similar to an average Dwarf male's admiration for a beautiful Dwarf female.
Gimli did hone in on Galadriel's golden hair as something he was impressed by. Did he see her head as a large gold nugget?
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 10:29 PM   #17
hankpac
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2
hankpac has just left Hobbiton.
HI: new here.
I think Gimli was more of a superstitious person, as most Dwarves were regarding Elves. they were hidden, mistrustful and almost miserly hermits in their caves, hoarding their riches. elves were of the sunlight, and forest.
He speak of Galadriel as a witch, knowing but little, and most of that tales to frighten children Dwarves.
When he finds out how wrong he is, he is utterly disarmed, and completely taken with her charms. She does indeed steal his heart, and he becomes not only fast friends with Legolas, he is ever and fully devoted to the Lady.
Attracted? No it is far deeper than that.
hankpac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 03:06 AM   #18
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,157
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
As for Gimli...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Gimli did hone in on Galadriel's golden hair as something he was impressed by. Did he see her head as a large gold nugget?
You're putting it in a bit of joking tone, but in fact, I would say technically the answer is "yes" in the very metaphorical sense: I think Lommy has a point there, and Gimli's kind of admiration for Galadriel's beauty was of a similar kind that he would have for a beautifully polished gem or something like that. "Gold nugget" is probably nothing that beautiful by itself, but the delicate strands of hair, delicate but strong and shining of gold or who knows what "magical Elvish" glow they might have had, I would say it is not far-fetched to compare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 5
A sister they had, Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwë; her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin.
Somebody likes Silmarils (or: everyone likes Silmarils), I think the hair "goes in the same direction", and I can see especially people prone to liking such things (Fëanor and Dwarves - note that it was exactly those two who had asked for Galadriel's hair).
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
...gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hankpac View Post
HI: new here.
I think Gimli was more of a superstitious person, as most Dwarves were regarding Elves. they were hidden, mistrustful and almost miserly hermits in their caves, hoarding their riches. elves were of the sunlight, and forest.
He speak of Galadriel as a witch, knowing but little, and most of that tales to frighten children Dwarves.
When he finds out how wrong he is, he is utterly disarmed, and completely taken with her charms. She does indeed steal his heart, and he becomes not only fast friends with Legolas, he is ever and fully devoted to the Lady.
Attracted? No it is far deeper than that.
This is a good point, too. The "moment of surprise" was definitely of large importance there, and I think it's been overlooked here by previous posters. It definitely plays a major role there, too, and the words that "...it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and
understanding" clearly indicate something deeper and more important going on there.

And welcome to the 'Downs!
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 06:23 AM   #19
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Well, to any who are stressing other factors behind Gimli's reaction to Galadriel: is the implication that Gimli was really only attracted physically to Dwarf-women?

Look I don't mean to keep things shallow here... but actually I thought that was the original point
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 07:23 AM   #20
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,290
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Well, to any who are stressing other factors behind Gimli's reaction to Galadriel: is the implication that Gimli was really only attracted physically to Dwarf-women?
We don't see much of them to really know. Does Gimli even know that they are women?
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 08:59 PM   #21
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Well, I really meant: is the implication that Gimli didn't really find Galadriel physically attractive?

Incidentally, considering that dwarf-women are under discussion, any future flippant comments about the name Nerwen will be ignored by me in this thread.

Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 09:19 PM   #22
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,290
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Well, I really meant: is the implication that Gimli didn't really find Galadriel physically attractive?
Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well. Everyone could find her physically attrctive, but not everyone found fer to also be a friend (not sure if it's the best way to describe it here). Boromir didn't, even though he's a Man, not a Dwarf.
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 09:43 PM   #23
blantyr
Wight
 
blantyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
blantyr is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well. Everyone could find her physically attrctive, but not everyone found fer to also be a friend (not sure if it's the best way to describe it here). Boromir didn't, even though he's a Man, not a Dwarf.
Galadriel seems able to read the hearts of others, though the person so read is at least partially aware of what she is reading. I always figured she saw something of Boromir's temptation, and he would be to some degree aware of it. I can see how he would be troubled.
blantyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 05:15 AM   #24
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 7,290
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr View Post
Galadriel seems able to read the hearts of others, though the person so read is at least partially aware of what she is reading. I always figured she saw something of Boromir's temptation, and he would be to some degree aware of it. I can see how he would be troubled.
He continued to see Galadriel as a "which" from the "tales". During their first meeting, he wasn't decided about what he really wants (which is to take the Ring).He kept disliking, not trusting, and not respecting Galadriel because he didn't wish to understand or "see into the enemy's heart" like Gimli did.
__________________
- These taxes, they are like sacrifices to tribal gods?
- Well, roughly speaking, but paying taxes is more painful.
Doctor Who: The Sun Makers
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 06:17 AM   #25
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well.
Yes, and I keep hearing that

But your initial question was not about possible deeper levels, but whether Dwarves found (or could find) Elves attractive physically; and my point is that while The Book of Lost Tales quote is dubious enough, I think Gilmi can be used as an example that it was possible, and the response 'it was more than physical' is basically off the point to that...

... again, unless anyone out there intends to imply that this deeper level really explains Gimli's devotion to Galadriel, meaning he didn't really find her fair on a physical level (shallower level though it be!).
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 09:10 AM   #26
Galadriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Galadriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
Galadriel has just left Hobbiton.
I think this thread has deviated from 'were Dwarves attracted to Elves' to 'explain how Gilmi was attracted to Galadriel'
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil
Galadriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 09:16 AM   #27
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel
I think this thread has deviated from 'were Dwarves attracted to Elves' to 'explain how Gilmi was attracted to Galadriel'
And I've no problem with that; I was wondering if it's all agreed that Gimli's example at least suggests that some Dwarves can be physically attracted to Elves (despite that there is more to Gimli's specific attraction to Galadriel than mere physical appearance).

In other words I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who doesn't agree with that much. Perhaps not, since it's such an arguably narrow enough point, but I can't say I've never been surprised when chatting Tolkien on the web!

I'm not sure I would note -- let's say for a theoretical website article or something -- that Gimli is certainly proof of some sweeping point about physical attraction between the races (I likely wouldn't even raise the matter actually), but on the other hand I'm not sure why he need be singular among Dwarves in finding Elven-women beautiful; again, even if his deeper devotion to Galadriel herself was historically more singular.

Last edited by Galin; 05-16-2011 at 10:12 AM.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2011, 11:47 AM   #28
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 2,860
Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quite apart from the case of Gimli (who, in any case, is too much of an apparent exception to be looked at too closely except as evidence that it is possible), I don't think it is, ontologically, a problem to say that Dwarves would find Elves attractive--assuming they could get over several thousand years of racial hatred and an understandable preference for the familiar over the unfamiliar (which is as much or more likely a default as trite saying that "opposites attract").

The reason I think this has to do with the origins of the Dwarves: Aulë made them because he was impatient for the Eruhíni (so were the other Valar, but that's decide the point). They were also made in imitation of them. On these bases, I think it is likely to posit that the Dwarves would still recognise Elves as the ideal on which they were based--even if it was only in some sort of subconscious matter. After all, I highly doubt the Dwarves would go around saying "we're poorly patterned copies off the Elven original."

The chief way to counter this, I suspect, would be to say that when Eru gave them souls, he also gave them a distinct sense of beauty and/or a preference for their own kind. While this is undoubtably true in part, I shy away from saying that Eru would have categorically overridden their recognition of the bodily beauty of those on which they were patterned. After all, Eru did not so much turn Aulë's creation into the Children he was trying to imitate, but merely gave them what Aulë could not: independence and a soul. Thus, it seems to me that the Dwarves would be able to recognise, by themselves, what Aulë had recognised before them--namely the beauty of the Elves.

None of which answers the question certainly, but I think it's a good starting point.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 10:08 PM   #29
Archaic Elf
Animated Skeleton
 
Archaic Elf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 33
Archaic Elf has just left Hobbiton.
You can admire the way something looks without falling in love with it. You can see a sunset and think it looks amazing and wish you could capture the color of the sky in a painting and gaze at it forever. Gimli kind of did that with Galadriel's hair by placing it in a necklace and using it as a family heirloom.

Gimli may have loved Galadriel but he probably didn't want to marry her. He admired her and considered her a true friend. He would probably be pleased to hang out with her often, but that would probably be enough.

There are just so many levels to the concept of love...
Archaic Elf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:50 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.