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Old 08-28-2006, 12:02 AM   #1
Mansun
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Silmaril Suprising quotes in the LOTR

Are there any scenes/qoutes from the LOTR from any character that suprise any of you? There was one particular one whereby an elf (who's name I have forgotten - Haldir I think) speaks of little trust the elves of Loth Lorien have of anyone, save in Rivendell perhaps. I find this absolutely astonishing - how on earth can the elves of Loth Lorien give even the slightest shred of doubt towards their brothers in arms, where one of the great lord of the Elves dwells? He should have said that he & the Elves fully supported Rivendell rather than leaving a cloud of doubt over the trustworthyness of Elrond's people.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:22 AM   #2
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But isn't that what happens when peoples are separated? I find it quite sad.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim
But isn't that what happens when peoples are separated? I find it quite sad.
It seems to me that the mental capacity of elves is very brittle.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:15 PM   #4
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Oh, yes, there were quotes that surprised me! This one that I'm about to put out made me stop reading for a moment and re-read it several times just to make sure it was there.

Quote:
Originally said by Gorbag in the TT, in the last part of The Choices of Master Samwise:
There's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since old times. . .
I certainly wasn't expecting the swear word, and therefore it was surprising.

At least it wasn't Sam or anybody else.

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Old 08-31-2006, 02:57 PM   #5
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But isn't the point that, once evil had re-entered the world, even the Elves were split into different, even unfriendly, groups? It's not so much about the weakness of Elves; more about the terrible effects of evil.
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Old 08-31-2006, 03:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim
But isn't the point that, once evil had re-entered the world, even the Elves were split into different, even unfriendly, groups? It's not so much about the weakness of Elves; more about the terrible effects of evil.
Aren't you straying from the point of this thread?
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Old 08-31-2006, 03:40 PM   #7
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Not at all. It would be a shame to just list those things one finds surprising. Far better to discuss and share ideas, wouldn't you say?
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim
But isn't the point that, once evil had re-entered the world, even the Elves were split into different, even unfriendly, groups? It's not so much about the weakness of Elves; more about the terrible effects of evil.
Which elves do you know of that strayed to evil?
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansun
Which elves do you know of that strayed to evil?
There are one or two, though they are rare. There was one quite evil Elf in the Silmarillon but his name doesn't spring to my mind. And can you imagine Galadriel if she had taken the ring?

But I don't think EotR was trying to say that many Elves were evil, but rather that the effects of evil had as much effect on the Elves as, say, the Dwarves, in that different Elves estranged from each other (it has been suggested, for example, that Mirkwood and Lorien weren't over-friendly, and going back to the First Age there are many different splits among Elves).

I read this in this (http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html) article about Legolas. It's quite an interesting theory, if theory it is. It might help answer Mansun's question to a degree as well

Quote:
In comments in his later letters and writings, Tolkien reveals a startling political divide between Lórien and Mirkwood, almost as great as that between Elves and Dwarves. Galadriel was an exile of the High-Elves (but had lived in Doriath among the Sindar); Celeborn was (in most accounts) a Sindarin kinsman of the King of Doriath. In the Second Age lived in Hollin for a while and visited Lórien often, when it was ruled by another Sindarin King and a friend of Oropher's (Amdir, father of the Amroth we hear about in the Lay of Nimrodel). While the Silvan folk of Lórien welcomed them, Oropher and his people did not. I have a feeling he was not at all happy when Galadriel, who was never free of her cravings for dominion until her showdown with Frodo, started wearing one of the Three Ruling Rings in S.A. 1590. I suspect this was when Oropher decided to make tracks:


"The Elvish folk of this realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbors of the Elves of Lórien; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien. On Galadriel and Celeborn, UT: 270. "


Apparently Legolas does not know about these family politics, or at least, he never seems to have any misgivings about Galadriel and Celeborn. He doesn't think about why he has been raised as a Wood-elf rather than Sindar. That's just what he is.
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:46 AM   #10
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What SC said.

It's not that the Elves strayed to evil but that evil strayed to them.
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Old 10-03-2006, 05:07 AM   #11
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There's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since old times. . .


What I find strange about this is not the swearing but the fact that the orcs speak as if they really remember the 'old times'. Are orcs immortal? Someone give me a hyperlink.
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:49 PM   #12
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Well, that's a whole other discussion in itself, but it seems likely. You'll remember that the goblins in The Hobbit recognized Glamdring and Orcrist, two elvish swords that likely had not been seen for thousands of years (and even if they had, they hadn't been wielded by elves since Gondolin's fall).
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Old 10-05-2006, 05:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard
Are orcs immortal?
I personally doubt that, unless we are talking about the maiar orcs mentioned in the Myths Transformed. And if the orcs in question have mannish blood, they aren't immortal:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion, Valinor and Middle Earth before LotR, HoME V
Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them
Quote:
Originally Posted by E & E
You'll remember that the goblins in The Hobbit recognized Glamdring and Orcrist, two elvish swords that likely had not been seen for thousands of years (and even if they had, they hadn't been wielded by elves since Gondolin's fall).
It is also presumed in the Hobbit that the trolls aquired the swords through looting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by A short rest, The Hobbit
- I could not say, said Elrond, but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North.
If the orcs in question were some previous owners of the swords, (and, even more, if the looting from them occured quite recently), then the memory problem doesn't seem so tricky anymore.
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansun
Which elves do you know of that strayed to evil?
The term Kinslaying comes to mind!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Essex
The term Kinslaying comes to mind!!!!!!!!!
Exactly! If the Teleri wouldn't have strayed to evil, they would have given the Noldor their ships, and so wouldn't have been slain.
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:59 AM   #16
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Exactly! If the Teleri wouldn't have strayed to evil, they would have given the Noldor their ships, and so wouldn't have been slain.
Is it possible that Elves ever served Sauron in Mordor? What about Dwarves?
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansun
Is it possible that Elves ever served Sauron in Mordor? What about Dwarves?
No. N-O. And even if they did, it was because they were captured prisoners, because there were no elves that served him, at least not knowingly into evil.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ninja91
No. N-O. And even if they did, it was because they were captured prisoners, because there were no elves that served him, at least not knowingly into evil.
N-O??? Are you preaching Chemistry here?

Can someone ellaborate more on what Gandalf said to Frodo about many a king & others that have walked Middle-Earth & are yet under the sway of the Dark Lord?
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:34 AM   #19
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Silmarillion hint towards Orcs being the twisted forms of elves?
Quote:
Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes...
Also, in TTT Saruman says
Quote:
Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life...
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:30 AM   #20
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Welcome to the Downs, Arquenniel!

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Silmarillion hint towards Orcs being the twisted forms of elves?
There are a few versions. There was a thread about it:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12857


I don't fins it surprising that Tolkien considers swearwords to be Orc-talk.
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Old 11-10-2011, 11:27 AM   #21
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I certainly wasn't expecting the word bastards in TTT. Tolkien uses mostly very prim and proper language, and then suddenly comes up with this word? I know he used it in a literal and not an offensive sense (though it was, really), but still.
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:04 PM   #22
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Well, most words that are considered rude today were just the usual words a long time ago.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:34 PM   #23
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I certainly wasn't expecting the word bastards in TTT. Tolkien uses mostly very prim and proper language, and then suddenly comes up with this word? I know he used it in a literal and not an offensive sense (though it was, really), but still.
Out of curiosity, in which chapter of TTT is that word found? I'm drawing a blank.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:45 PM   #24
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Out of curiosity, in which chapter of TTT is that word found? I'm drawing a blank.
Shelob's Lair: "Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood."
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:46 PM   #25
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Well, most words that are considered rude today were just the usual words a long time ago.
It wasn't that long a time ago
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:54 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Galadriel View Post
Shelob's Lair: "Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood."
Thanks. I didn't have the book with me.

Along the lines of what Eönwë said, that particular word had a neutral, everyday use at least until the 1970s, I think. Now though, you mainly hear it used as an insult.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:55 PM   #27
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Thanks. I didn't have the book with me.

Along the lines of what Eönwë said, that particular word had a neutral, everyday use at least until the 1970s, I think. Now though, you mainly hear it used as an insult.
Ah. Right. Thanks And you're welcome
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