Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[alatar]

Very nice post Bêthberry.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien chose a different kind of text and style for TH sequel than he used in his private papers about his Legendarium; Tokien hints rather than states directly; to infer the continuity is to make readerly acts, to take up the hints and veiled references which, for most readers, are to a tantalizing half-glimpsed idea.

Could it be that he played to the psychological need for discovery (not sure that this actually exists, and so far my searches have proved fruitless, but I would guess that it's real)? You know, the desire to find out what's out there, in there, over there, under there, etc. Isn't there a thrill when you first meet someone unique and cool, or start reading a book that's a real page-turner, or hear a song that makes you stop and think? The adrenaline levels may vary, but they are examples of moments when you think: Hey, I need to look into him/her/this/that a little more. You get in gear, engaged as it were, and start digging.

M-Y-S-T-E-R-Y.

Don't you just hate it when, at the end of a book, everything is just wrapped up ever so neatly and conveniently, and nothing is left to ponder? Isn't this the reason for d e m, to fill in the plot holes and finish off the story lines?

Discovery. Wonder.

Tolkien, in LotR, gives us a glimpse at times that there's more to Middle Earth than just the book in our hands. In the Appendices (added in subsequent publishing because readers wanted to know more?) more of the story is given, but even that is just a teasing draught from the sea of material. The more you explore, the greater your rewards. You still have to dig, as it's not all laid out. And even better, the additional material is (mostly) consistent and valid across the whole. The letters mor signify something dark or black (Moria, Mordor, Moriquendi, etc), whether they're seen in the First or Third Age. Other authors cobble together appendices or additional stories, but these are hacks, not part of nor grown from the whole. Your exploration is put off as it's all a cheap facade, not the real deal archeology of Tolkien's works.

So again, as I've stated before, we never get to read about Eru, but occasionally see large fingerprints in LotR, and get the pleasure of playing CSI:ME.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Don't you just hate it when, at the end of a book, everything is just wrapped up ever so neatly and conveniently, and nothing is left to ponder? Isn't this the reason for d e m, to fill in the plot holes and finish off the story lines?

Discovery. Wonder.

Tolkien, in LotR, gives us a glimpse at times that there's more to Middle Earth than just the book in our hands. In the Appendices (added in subsequent publishing because readers wanted to know more?) more of the story is given, but even that is just a teasing draught from the sea of material. The more you explore, the greater your rewards. You still have to dig, as it's not all laid out. And even better, the additional material is (mostly) consistent and valid across the whole. The letters mor signify something dark or black (Moria, Mordor, Moriquendi, etc), whether they're seen in the First or Third Age. Other authors cobble together appendices or additional stories, but these are hacks, not part of nor grown from the whole. Your exploration is put off as it's all a cheap facade, not the real deal archeology of Tolkien's works.

So again, as I've stated before, we never get to read about Eru, but occasionally see large fingerprints in LotR, and get the pleasure of playing CSI:ME.

Far from having to cobble something together, I think if anything Tolkien wanted the Appendices to be longer! There was a significant delay in publishing as he found it so difficult to cut down the information he wanted to include there. He also was not happy that every edition did not include appendices - there is some interesting info on this is the Scull/Hammond Readers' Companion.

I often read LotR as being in some ways an unfinished tale. Frodo sails for the West, but there is that evocative passage which hints at yet more:

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

I feel so frustrated that I cannot follow Frodo to this new land and discover it with him in the same way I discovered Middle-earth. This way of rounding off Frodo's story may have allowed Tolkien not to have to 'kill' him off, it may or may not be a DEM, but either way, it leaves me feeling flipping frustrated, as though I've been left behind, unwanted on this voyage, while at the same time I feel utterly enchanted...

[JennyHallu]

I feel so frustrated that I cannot follow Frodo to this new land and discover it with him in the same way I discovered Middle-earth. This way of rounding off Frodo's story may have allowed Tolkien not to have to 'kill' him off, it may or may not be a DEM, but either way, it leaves me feeling flipping frustrated, as though I've been left behind, unwanted on this voyage, while at the same time I feel utterly enchanted...

Yet when I read this passage, I find only hope and promise. It isn't that we have been left behind, it is that our tasks, unlike Frodo's, are not yet finished. I think the most basic reason for Frodo's departure is that Tolkien wanted to let us leave Frodo without worrying about him.

But it's hardly a DEM...think of how often the idea of refuge in the West after long labor is brought up: Legolas' longing for the sea, Aragorns' mourning for the loss of Atalantë, the mystery of Gandalf's origin in the West, the stories (told fairly early in the story) of Ëarendil's journey to Aman. Both the Elves and Men have the same story: A land of milk and honey which they were forced to leave through their own willingness to break rather minimal rules, by the temptation of an evil figure. The fact that Frodo is allowed to return to the West is the ultimate full circle, and reflects Tolkien's religious philosophy. After long labor, and extreme self-sacrifice and bravery, we can return. The West is not lost.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Far from having to cobble something together, I think if anything Tolkien wanted the Appendices to be longer!

Note that when I refer to cobbling, I meant other, lesser authors such as Robert Jordan of WoT fame. And *I* want the Appendices, the books etc to be at least 5000 pages longer.

I feel so frustrated that I cannot follow Frodo to this new land and discover it with him in the same way I discovered Middle-earth. This way of rounding off Frodo's story may have allowed Tolkien not to have to 'kill' him off, it may or may not be a DEM, but either way, it leaves me feeling flipping frustrated, as though I've been left behind, unwanted on this voyage, while at the same time I feel utterly enchanted...

But there has to be some end, and as I stated before, some of the best writing lets you ponder a bit.

[Essex]

this story is about Middle-earth, not about the Undying Lands.

for me, lotr has the most perfect ending I've ever read in a book. There is a sense of closure, the job's been done, but some cannot be healed here in ME so must travel on the Straight Road to find healing before they die.

Frodo says goodbye to his friends, and we travel back with Sam and finish the tale from his point of view. And why not, as a lot of people think Sam is the real hero of LOTR.....

Hang on, what has THIS got to do with D E M?????!!!!!!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Essex

Hang on, what has THIS got to do with D E M?????!!!!!!

I'm just asking if it could possibly be seen as one. I know that I certainly don't see it that way, and I'm sure nobody on the Downs would, either, but some may see it as a rather 'convenient' end for Frodo. If we think about it, mortals are not allowed to make that trip, and there have been many courageous mortals, so why are Frodo, Bilbo and Sam allowed to make it?

I think Tolkien would have baulked at killing off these three Hobbits in any case, but might some see that as reason for this ending being a DEM?

Again, I'm not saying that this is what I think at all, as i find it a perfect ending; I'm just posing the question of whether it has the hallmarks of a DEM?

I would say that many aspects not just of Tolkien but of fantasy, sci-fi and horror in general could be dismissed as DEMs, when instead, they are just 'magic' or the fantastic.