The missing family of Rohan - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

symestreem · 03-07-2004, 09:56 AM

If Theoden had four sisters, what happened to the other three besides Theodred? They are never mentioned, nor are their names given. It's possible that one of them might have died early, or even two, but all three? Their lack of descendants can perhaps be reasonably explained (if only one besides Theodred survived childhood, perhaps she died in childbirth with the child), but this is still rather odd. Opinions?

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 03-07-2004, 10:14 AM

Hey, I totally take my hat off to you, symestreem. You sure are a sticker for details...

According to the Appendix of LOTR, Theoden had four sisters, two of which had been, like him, born in Gondor. The other two sisters were born in Rohan, of which Theodwyn was Theoden's favorite. Theodred sure had many aunts...

Theoden was 71 when he died on the Pelennor Fields, I believe. Perhaps his three or two other sisters remained unwed and therefore childless? Or maybe they did married and their children served Theoden; I always though Theoden a bit too upset at Hama's death...

Osse · 03-07-2004, 10:54 PM

guys... Eomer and Eowyn's mum was on of Theoden's sister, one died at a young age from sickness (if i remember correctly) and one died at birth i think (once again if i am correct) i am unsure of when, how or why, but i remember reading that they all died. And of course the Siblings mum died at grief of the loss of her husband did she not?

Osse

Findegil · 03-08-2004, 06:19 AM

Dying in childbirth was the fate of Theodens wife the mother of Theodred not (as fare as I remember) of one of his sisters.

Respectfully
Findegil

Osse · 03-09-2004, 08:54 AM

oh thanks for clearing that up for me... so confusing hehe

Lostgaeriel · 03-09-2004, 10:15 AM

By reading through The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, II THE HOUSE OF EORL, THE KINGS OF THE MARK; Appendix B, THE TALE OF YEARS; and Unfinished Tales, in particular PART THREE: THE THIRD AGE, V The Battles of the Fords of Isen, I have compiled the following:

Year Third Age or "equivalent" (3021 is last year of T.A.)
2870 Fengel is born
2903 Folcwine dies; Fengel becomes King
2905 Thengel is born – third child and only son of Fengel
2925? Thengel leaves Rohan and lives in Gondor (assume he has come of age at 20 years)
2943 Thengel marries Morwen of Lossarnach
2943-48? Thengel’s eldest child is born – first of 4 daughters
2948 Théoden is born – only son of Thengel
2948-53? Thengel’s second daughter is born
2953 Fengel dies; Thengel made King; he & his family move back to Rohan
2953-63? Thengel’s third daughter is born
2963 Théodwyn is born – Thengel’s fourth daughter
2968-78? Théoden marries Elfhild (assume he marries sometime after coming of age at 20 years old)
2978-79? Théodred is born (he is 24 years old when Théodwyn dies & he is 13 years older than Éomer); queen* Elfhild dies in childbirth (* discrepancy: Thengel still alive, therefore Théoden is not yet king & Elfhild is not queen)
2980 Thengel dies; Théoden becomes King
2989 Théodwyn marries Éomund of Eastfold
2991 Éomer is born
2995 Éowyn is born
3002 Éomund is slain by Orcs
3002-03? Théodwyn dies of grief (soon after Éomund is killed); Théoden adopts Éomer & Éowyn
3014 Théoden’s health begins to fail
3018 (February 25) Théodred is slain at the First Battle of the Fords of Isen
3018 (March 2) Gandalf heals Théoden
3018 (March 15) Théoden is slain at the Battle of the Pelennor; Éomer is made King of Rohan
3021 Éomer marries Lothriel, daughter of Imrahil
3021- F.A. 20? Éomer’s son Elfwine the Fair is born
"3084" = F.A. 63 Éomer dies; Elfwine becomes King of Rohan

I thought this might be helpful in keeping the facts straight. If anyone has more information from another source, please fill in the gaps. (the gaps of Rohan?!)

symestreem · 03-09-2004, 03:41 PM

Wow. You guys are good.
Lostgaeriel, wouldn't Theodred have to have been born after Thengel died, because in ROTK it says

Quote:

for the queen Elfhild had died in childbirth...

Lalaith · 03-09-2004, 03:58 PM

symestreem, you're pretty good yourself, that's an excellent point.
The annals of Arda put Theodred's birth (and thus Elfhild's death) at 2978. So maybe 'queen' was a slip-up on Tolkien's part...

oh and there's some interesting points here:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/49877

Osse · 03-09-2004, 10:25 PM

The reason the kingship went to Eomer, is that he was the only available male kinsman of the king yes? Why then does not one of the King's sisters lead the people in dunharrow. Why aren't they mentioned at all... i always assumed they were dead at the time of the war of the ring...

Lalaith · 03-10-2004, 06:50 AM

We could assume that the older sisters had no surviving offspring, as they would have prior claim to the throne, Theodwyn being the youngest child.
Alternatively, (as I think Martinez suggests in his essay?) Rohan may not have had a strict primogenture law of succession. This would fit in with the Anglo-Saxon aspect of the culture. The Anglo Saxon kingships usually went to the oldest surviving male heir, but not automatically. It was more like modern family businesses - the business could be taken over by the kid that poppa thought most promising.

Ancient cultures often had very interesting inheritance systems. The Picts of Scotland, for example: kingship was inherited through the sister of the current monarch, so the king's nephews were the heirs. (Hence the relevance of Mordred being Arthur's nephew rather than son...anyway, sorry, this is a digression.)

Lostgaeriel · 03-10-2004, 10:36 AM

I'm surprised you folks didn't chastise me for messing up the numbering of the Years after 3021, the last of the Third Age! Shame on me. I've gone back and corrected those.

As for "queen" Elfhild, I didn't notice that discrepancy of Tolkien's, but there are lots of those in the book*. Tolkien does give two references to Théodred's age: he is 13 years older than Éomer (& Éomer's birth year is given in the Tale of Years) and he was 24 years old when Théoden takes in Éomer & Éowyn.

* example: Sam's birth year using the The Tale of Years (2983 T.A.) vs. The Longfather Tree of Master Samwise (S.R. 1380).

symestreem · 03-10-2004, 06:35 PM

If these siblings did not marry prominent men, then the chances are that they married for love. Yet all the other nobility in Tolkien's books marries other nobility. So how, do you think, does marrying for love fit in with ME, specifically Rohan?

Me writer's instinct thinks there be a story here.

Lostgaeriel · 03-10-2004, 09:03 PM

Yes, this is fodder for fan fiction. Go for it symestreem!

Perhaps Théoden's two eldest sisters married men from Gondor? Presumably Guards of the Citadel or maybe even merchants! The girls could have been as old as 10 and 5 years when their family returned to Rohan. Thengel's family would be remembered even years later and a marriage or two might have been arranged.

03-07-2004, 09:56 AM	#1
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 729	The missing family of Rohan If Theoden had four sisters, what happened to the other three besides Theodred? They are never mentioned, nor are their names given. It's possible that one of them might have died early, or even two, but all three? Their lack of descendants can perhaps be reasonably explained (if only one besides Theodred survived childhood, perhaps she died in childbirth with the child), but this is still rather odd. Opinions?

03-07-2004, 10:54 PM	#3
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	guys... Eomer and Eowyn's mum was on of Theoden's sister, one died at a young age from sickness (if i remember correctly) and one died at birth i think (once again if i am correct) i am unsure of when, how or why, but i remember reading that they all died. And of course the Siblings mum died at grief of the loss of her husband did she not? Osse __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

03-09-2004, 08:54 AM	#5
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	oh thanks for clearing that up for me... so confusing hehe __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

03-09-2004, 10:15 AM	#6
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 479	By reading through The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, II THE HOUSE OF EORL, THE KINGS OF THE MARK; Appendix B, THE TALE OF YEARS; and Unfinished Tales, in particular PART THREE: THE THIRD AGE, V The Battles of the Fords of Isen, I have compiled the following: Year Third Age or "equivalent" (3021 is last year of T.A.) 2870 Fengel is born 2903 Folcwine dies; Fengel becomes King 2905 Thengel is born – third child and only son of Fengel 2925? Thengel leaves Rohan and lives in Gondor (assume he has come of age at 20 years) 2943 Thengel marries Morwen of Lossarnach 2943-48? Thengel’s eldest child is born – first of 4 daughters 2948 Théoden is born – only son of Thengel 2948-53? Thengel’s second daughter is born 2953 Fengel dies; Thengel made King; he & his family move back to Rohan 2953-63? Thengel’s third daughter is born 2963 Théodwyn is born – Thengel’s fourth daughter 2968-78? Théoden marries Elfhild (assume he marries sometime after coming of age at 20 years old) 2978-79? Théodred is born (he is 24 years old when Théodwyn dies & he is 13 years older than Éomer); queen* Elfhild dies in childbirth (* discrepancy: Thengel still alive, therefore Théoden is not yet king & Elfhild is not queen) 2980 Thengel dies; Théoden becomes King 2989 Théodwyn marries Éomund of Eastfold 2991 Éomer is born 2995 Éowyn is born 3002 Éomund is slain by Orcs 3002-03? Théodwyn dies of grief (soon after Éomund is killed); Théoden adopts Éomer & Éowyn 3014 Théoden’s health begins to fail 3018 (February 25) Théodred is slain at the First Battle of the Fords of Isen 3018 (March 2) Gandalf heals Théoden 3018 (March 15) Théoden is slain at the Battle of the Pelennor; Éomer is made King of Rohan 3021 Éomer marries Lothriel, daughter of Imrahil 3021- F.A. 20? Éomer’s son Elfwine the Fair is born "3084" = F.A. 63 Éomer dies; Elfwine becomes King of Rohan I thought this might be helpful in keeping the facts straight. If anyone has more information from another source, please fill in the gaps. (the gaps of Rohan?!) __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting. Last edited by Lostgaeriel; 03-10-2004 at 10:24 AM.

03-09-2004, 10:25 PM	#9
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	The reason the kingship went to Eomer, is that he was the only available male kinsman of the king yes? Why then does not one of the King's sisters lead the people in dunharrow. Why aren't they mentioned at all... i always assumed they were dead at the time of the war of the ring... __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

03-07-2004, 10:14 AM	#2
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Hey, I totally take my hat off to you, symestreem. You sure are a sticker for details... According to the Appendix of LOTR, Theoden had four sisters, two of which had been, like him, born in Gondor. The other two sisters were born in Rohan, of which Theodwyn was Theoden's favorite. Theodred sure had many aunts... Theoden was 71 when he died on the Pelennor Fields, I believe. Perhaps his three or two other sisters remained unwed and therefore childless? Or maybe they did married and their children served Theoden; I always though Theoden a bit too upset at Hama's death...

03-08-2004, 06:19 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	Dying in childbirth was the fate of Theodens wife the mother of Theodred not (as fare as I remember) of one of his sisters. Respectfully Findegil

03-09-2004, 03:58 PM	#8
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	symestreem, you're pretty good yourself, that's an excellent point. The annals of Arda put Theodred's birth (and thus Elfhild's death) at 2978. So maybe 'queen' was a slip-up on Tolkien's part... oh and there's some interesting points here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/49877

03-10-2004, 06:50 AM	#10
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	We could assume that the older sisters had no surviving offspring, as they would have prior claim to the throne, Theodwyn being the youngest child. Alternatively, (as I think Martinez suggests in his essay?) Rohan may not have had a strict primogenture law of succession. This would fit in with the Anglo-Saxon aspect of the culture. The Anglo Saxon kingships usually went to the oldest surviving male heir, but not automatically. It was more like modern family businesses - the business could be taken over by the kid that poppa thought most promising. Ancient cultures often had very interesting inheritance systems. The Picts of Scotland, for example: kingship was inherited through the sister of the current monarch, so the king's nephews were the heirs. (Hence the relevance of Mordred being Arthur's nephew rather than son...anyway, sorry, this is a digression.)

03-10-2004, 10:36 AM	#11
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 479	I'm surprised you folks didn't chastise me for messing up the numbering of the Years after 3021, the last of the Third Age! Shame on me. I've gone back and corrected those. As for "queen" Elfhild, I didn't notice that discrepancy of Tolkien's, but there are lots of those in the book. Tolkien does give two references to Théodred's age: he is 13 years older than Éomer (& Éomer's birth year is given in the Tale of Years) and he was 24 years old when Théoden takes in Éomer & Éowyn. example: Sam's birth year using the The Tale of Years (2983 T.A.) vs. The Longfather Tree of Master Samwise (S.R. 1380). __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.

03-10-2004, 06:35 PM	#12
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 729	If these siblings did not marry prominent men, then the chances are that they married for love. Yet all the other nobility in Tolkien's books marries other nobility. So how, do you think, does marrying for love fit in with ME, specifically Rohan? Me writer's instinct thinks there be a story here.

03-10-2004, 09:03 PM	#13
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 479	Yes, this is fodder for fan fiction. Go for it symestreem! Perhaps Théoden's two eldest sisters married men from Gondor? Presumably Guards of the Citadel or maybe even merchants! The girls could have been as old as 10 and 5 years when their family returned to Rohan. Thengel's family would be remembered even years later and a marriage or two might have been arranged. __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.