Favouritism

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Why are the Valar favouritist to the Elves, they dont seem to give a dahm about men?

I think this is because the Eldar tried to be as much like the Valar as they could. and many of them even went to Valinor to be with the Valar. While men were wild and didn't care about such things until the were taugh tby the elves. Also , men came much later than the elves. the elves were on Arda for a while before the Edain.

[Elven-Maiden]

Oh! I can answer that!

The dealings of the Ainur have indeed been mostly with the Elves, for Illuvatar made them more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature; whereas to the Men he gave strange gifts.

The Ainur are "the Holy Ones" of the Maiar and the Valar. Woo hoo! This is the first time I could answer a question with a quote from a book! I've finally graduated! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Elven-Maiden ]

[Elven-Maiden]

Oh, btw, that quote was from page 35 (2nd edition DelRey) of The Silmarillion.

[Mat_Heathertoes]

I'd add to that the Valar feared to attempt to wrest control of Middle-Earth again by force as they did when they overthrew Utumno in the Ages of the Trees to the aid of the Elves. In that war Middle-Earth was broken and ruining in many places and the Valar feared to do that to mankind who were acknowledged to be 'more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance'

It does state however in 'Of Men' - Chapter 12 of the Silmarillion that:-

'To Hildorien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world. Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them, aiding the counsel and will of Manwë; and his messages often came to them by stream and flood. But they [Men] have not skill in such matters,...

I'd say Men were a mystery to the Valar and after the fiasco of the previous summons of the Elves to 'come holiday in Valinor' , they decided to leave well alone until they understood Mankind further .. even the Powers made the odd mistake or two ....

[Kuruharan]

Actually, the Valar never struck me as being particularly skilled in their task. They were always goofing up. There was the business with the Elves, then they let Morgoth loose, they put Numenor waaaayy to close to the Blessed Realm...
About the only thing they did right was to send the Istari, and they only got 1 out of 5 on that score. (Maybe 2, depending on how you think that Radagast turned out).

Originally posted by Kuruharan:
<STRONG>
About the only thing they did right was to send the Istari, and they only got 1 out of 5 on that score. (Maybe 2, depending on how you think that Radagast turned out).</STRONG>

What about the Blue wizards? You never hear anything about them because they were sent into the east. so they may have done something very great over there. Or they could have turned out like Saruman , who knows?

[Elven-Maiden]

I was wondering about those blue wizards. In which books are they talked about?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

The Blue Wizards - Ithryn Luin - were the maiar of Oromë and went with Curunir[Saruman] into the East of Middle-Earth and never returned ... they apparently founded gambling empires and dwarf-bordellos there which is to say that they failed as J.R.R. Tolkien said in his letters

They went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, far out of Númenórean range; missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands as it were. What success they had there I do not know, but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, thought doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron

Unfinished Tales Pt 4 II 'The Istari'

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mat_Heathertoes ]

[littlemanpoet]

Originally posted by Kuruharan:
<STRONG>Actually, the Valar never struck me as being particularly skilled in their task. They were always goofing up.</STRONG>

ALWAYS goofing up!? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Take a look at The Music of the Ainur in the Silmarillion (or the Book of Lost Tales). In it Tolkien portrays the seed of everything that came afterward. Iluvatar is pleased by the music of the Ainur, until Melkor asserts his own dissonant themes.

I think you're seeing five little black dots in the middle of the big white page, so to speak. In other words, the Valar were quite accomplished in their work, Manwe giving speech to Eagles, Aule forming the mountains and basically cleaning up the mess Morgoth made, Yavanna making green things grow, Ulmo doing his wonders in the deep. I could go on and on...

I really don't know that I'd even call the things you mentioned as MISTAKES or goof-ups by the Valar. Sure, what they did got corrupted or went bad, but just because something gets corrupted doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done in the first place. Otherwise God should never have bothered to create it all in the first place.

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Kuruharan]

Iluvatar is pleased by the music of the Ainur, until Melkor asserts his own dissonant themes.

Exactly, my point is that they did not do such a good job dealing with the themes of Melkor. Iluvatar allowed things to stand as they were because He could create greater glory through them.
Yes, they created the world, but that was not the problem. The problem was a lack of understanding of their enemy and of their charges.
I understand that their limited understanding of the inhabitants of Ea is because they were the Theme of Iluvatar alone.
However, their lack of understanding of Melkor is a tremendous problem on their part. In order to successfully defeat an enemy you need to understand them, how they think, what they are going to do, and how you can effectively counter their moves. Yes, they ultimately defeated Morgoth (and through their agent[s] Sauron) but only after much ruin, loss, and suffering. And evil still continues. The best wars (aside from those that don't happen at all) are those that are as brief as possible. The war between Morgoth and the Valar went on for centuries, the Valar seemed unable (or unwilling) to strike a decisive blow. When they did eventually defeat him the Valar had him penned up, but then turned him loose. Big mistake.

None of this is intended to say that anyone in their position would have done any better. Depending on your view of fate in Middle earth, one could be led to believe that this was all determined beforehand to show that Iluvatar is the only One who gets it right all the time.

Or, if you're a free-willer (I tend to be) it was this way because ultimately the glory of the whole Music would be greater at The End.
Or maybe a combination of the two. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Thanks guys. I understand now and I never learnt that about the blue wizards.

[Aralaithiel]

I raise a toast to you, Elven-Maiden! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Doesn't it feel good when you can quote from the books?! Enjoy! And may you be blessed with many more posts like that one! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Originally posted by Kuruharan:
<STRONG>
...their limited understanding of the inhabitants of Ea is because they were the Theme of Iluvatar alone. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]</STRONG>

Exactly. It was going to take the entire history of Ea for the Ainur to fully understand the wisdom of Iluvatar.

<STRONG>However, their lack of understanding of Melkor is a tremendous problem...In order to successfully defeat an enemy you need to understand them...the Valar seemed unable (or unwilling) to strike a decisive blow. When they did eventually defeat him the Valar had him penned up, but then turned him loose. Big mistake.</STRONG>

I think unwilling is closer. The Ainur exhibited mercy. Being Good, they risked trusting Melkor. That he was deceitful is not the fault of the Valar.

<STRONG>
...None of this is intended to say that anyone in their position would have done any better...Or, if you're a free-willer (I tend to be) it was this way because ultimately the glory of the whole Music would be greater at The End. Or maybe a combination of the two. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]</STRONG>

I'm a combination fo the two kind of guy. Paradox. I guess I'd just add that Good must either experience the pain of Evil or become evil in order to understand it. And even then all their deeds were tempered with mercy.

[Niphredil Baggins]

Littlemanpoet speaks words of wisdom.
The Valar rule! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks, Niphredil! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

But I still maintain that turning Melkor loose was a mistake. Being merciful or not, they should have had more sense.

The bringing of Elves to Valinor is something of a Catch 22. Something's bound to go wrong no matter what you do. However, if they had wanted the Elves to gain experience, they could have left them in Middle earth to wander, explore, and learn, but dragged Melkor back to Valinor and kept him penned up there.

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Some of the Valar were indeed wise to that peaching sneakthief Melkor .. Ulmo for one and Tulkas was another

But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by .....

Silmarillion - Chapter 6 - Of Fëanor

But they had to abide by the will of Manwë

For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Illúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart

Silmarillion - Chapter 6 - Of Fëanor

So a sense of brotherly love and the goody-goodyness of Manwë was the undoing of the Valar at that time. But as it is mentioned elsewhere many times everything that did happen was doomed to happen in any case and Mandos knew it. But the war between good and evil was the fate of Arda in its conception and even Eru knew that...

'...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Illúvatar to Melkor - Ainulindalë

[littlemanpoet]

Well researched, Mat.

But I still maintain that turning Melkor loose was a mistake. Being merciful or not, they should have had more sense.

After reading Mat's stuff, Kuruharan, I'll grant turning Melkor loose was a mistake. But "should have had more sense"? What Mat uncovered was that Manwe lacked discernment, not good sense. Maybe I'm just being picky...

[Kuruharan]

I for one would say a lack of discernment is a lack of good sense.

But as it is mentioned elsewhere many times everything that did happen was doomed to happen in any case and Mandos knew it. But the war between good and evil was the fate of Arda in its conception and even Eru knew that...

The jury is still out on how much of what happened in the world was "doomed" beforehand to happen. It'll probably remain out as long as I, at least, remain unconvinced that nobody has free will or that free will is limited to a particular group. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

(And, yes, I think that even the Elves had a certain amount of free will. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[lore_master]

yes, the Elves obviosly had free will, one example is that of Feanor and the Noldor leaving Valinor and going back to middle-earth, another is that of Meaglin betraying Gondolin.

but anyway, like Mat pointed out, Manwe could not comprehend evil and its ways, and since Melkor was originaly like him, Manwe thought that he was healed.

[Lobelia]

Ahem! Cough cough! I think we're drifting here, if having fun, so I hope it's okay if I get back to the original question...

I don't think it was a case of favouritism, unless it's slanted towards humanity. The impression I got was that the Elves were to be sort of our big brothers and sisters (whether it worked out that way or not is another matter), to look after us, hence the reason for their being created first. They got the "immortality" if you like, at least till the end of the world, but no guarantee of anything better after a long, wearisome eternity. Humans, on the other hand, got the "gift of Illuvatar". We mightn't like it much, but it was supposed to go with having a soul and escape from "the circles of the world." Just imagine being dragged kicking and screaming into re-birth and more of the same, more lembas, more artistic stuff...

[Essex]

the Elves were to be sort of our big brothers and sisters (whether it worked out that way or not is another matter), to look after us, hence the reason for their being created first.

I know I may be opening a hornet's nest, but when ever have the Elves looked after mankind?

The last alliance was a meeting of forces, so hardly the Elves looking after us, and what about the War of the Ring? How did they look after us there?

No doubt I'll see a few answers to this post next time I look....

[HerenIstarion]

one of the few answers to be found when essex looks back:

the quote you give answers itself:

whether it worked out that way or not is another matter

as for the brotherhood and likeness, the whole Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth deals with the issue, and is recommended read on the subject (see it In HoME X)

I can't give an excerpt right away, but I definitely (at least I think so) will, once I'm come back later on

[Essex]

HerenIstarion, I look forward to your reply on brotherhood, but how does

whether it worked out that way or not is another matter

answer my question?

When did the Elves attempt to look after humankind in the Last Alliance or War of the Ring?

In my (humble) view, I believe they were acting out of their own self preservation, as much as humankind were.

In the case of the War of the Ring, Elrond or Galadriel would not touch the Ring. They left it for some poor halfling to get rid of Sauron. They were too busy getting ready to leave Middle-earth to head back to Valinor anyway.

You can probably see I'm not too enamoured with Elves, especially after reading the Silmarillion. Quite a nasty bunch of people at times! All that Kin slaying is very unpalatable.....

[Findegil]

Lets say it in that way: The Story as we have it was reported by the Numeoreans or by their decendents and relatives. They thaught of themself as superior to any other man in Middle-Earth. And they were Elf-friends. So at least in the story in which the Elves played a large rolle (such as are reported out of the first age) the Elves are portraited by being teachers and supportes of men.

Respectfully
Findegil

[the phantom]

but when ever have the Elves looked after mankind?

Men from the three great houses of Beleriand showed significant improvement as a result of their contact with the Noldor. The reason that there were men like Faramir in the third age was because way back in the first age his ancestors were buddies with the elves. The men of Numenor, Arnor, and Gondor all owed their stature to their forfathers' contact with the Noldor.

Elrond or Galadriel would not touch the Ring

Of course they didn't. It would've been the dumbest thing they'd ever done.

They left it for some poor halfling to get rid of Sauron

That "poor halfling" was meant to do the job. It was his fate.

And also, Elrond could've already been on his way to Valinor but he chose to stick around and give what aid and counsel he could. And Celeborn and Galadriel's elves bore arms against Sauron's forces and aided the Fellowship in any way that they could.

I believe they were acting out of their own self preservation, as much as humankind were.

Yeah, they did personally benefit from their actions, but is there anything wrong with that? In order to be considered unselfish do you have to do only things that won't benefit you in any way? Of course not.

It is possible to do things that help yourself and others at the same time (and not be selfish).

[Lobelia]

Essex, "whether or not it worked out that way" is exactly what I meant, i.e. that they weren't always that helpful, whatever was intended. Basically, the attitude is that humanity are the important ones, they have the souls and they get to go to heaven, etc. The Elves get the long lives to make up for the lack of souls, I guess. Hardly favouritism, in my opinion - and the Elves, really, are humans with super powers, and have human problems as well as the specifically Elvish ones. They love and hate and kill each other, just like humans. Poor sods.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Lobelia, the elves do have souls (or fëar, as Tolkien calls it in his subcreation)

[doug*platypus]

The issue of favouritism was answered quite well early on in this thread, IMHO. The Valar took the Eldar under their wing and brought them to Valinor. When Men first came on the scene, they more or less said "sorry mate, can't help you there" and left them to deal with the perils of Middle-Earth on their own. Of course this is also a result of the Elfocentric nature of Tolkien's tales. He deliberately left the beginnings of Men as either ambiguous, or as already described in the Old Testament.

I don't think there's any doubt that the Valar showed favour to the Eldar (and by association the Edain). And it is also clear that this was because of their kindred spirits. They loved the Eldar because they were something totally new, but also similar to them. Most importantly, I think, Valar, Maiar and Eldar were all bound with the fate of Arda. The most mysterious aspect of Men is that their fate lies beyond the Circles of the World.

The Valar in general, I think, were vexed at this, confused and misunderstanding. Perhaps even envious of the Gift of Ilúvatar. I think that the rebellious words of Fëanor (which came from Melkor) may have had some substance to them. The Valar removed themselves from Middle-Earth long before the Awakening of Men, and put all their godly cookies into the Valinor basket. No wait, I mean eggs. Or cookie jar?! From that point on, anything which occurred in Middle-Earth was foreign to them (with exceptions such as Melian, Ulmo). The physical and mental distance which was created between Valinor and the Hither Lands was so great, that eventually emissaries between one and the other were required. The Valar could not come to the aid of Beleriand without an embassy from Eärendil, or aid the fight against Sauron without sending the Istari (disguised Maiar) as ambassadors.

The Valar showed favouritism to the Eldar, and distanced themselves from Men. Morgoth was the Vala who had the most contact with the aftercomers; the rift between Men and the other Valar was never healed. Perhaps Tolkien sees the evils that have been committed by mankind throughout the ages as a result of this seeming abandonment. The powers that control Arda will have very little to do with Men; the only hope for Men lies outside the Circles of the world... with Ilúvatar. And it is not a certain hope, either, relying solely on trust and putting aside fear of the unknown.