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Old 09-27-2017, 03:12 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali

This is the first draft of the chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali.

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silmarillion given in HoMe 10 on page 174-179. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
EPE-EX-xx for Eldamar and the Princes of the Edali, Expansions

EPE-SL-xx for Eldamar and the Princes of the Edali, Story Line

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new these is indicated by a missing > at the end of the and a missing < at the beginning of the next.

Quote:
6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali
34 In time the hosts of the Eldali came to the last western shores of the Hither Lands. between them and the Mountains of Aman.
35 EPE-EX-01 <AAm 66 Now Ulmo, by the counsel of the Valar, their fear of the Sea was turned rather to desire.> There they waited and gazed upon the dark waves. But Ulmo came{ from the Valar}; and he uprooted a half-sunken island, and they did not come until Ulmo had departed.
36 Therefore Ulmo drew the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} and the Noldor over the sea to the long shores beneath the Mountains of Valinor, and they entered the land of the {Gods}[Valar] and were welcomed to its bliss. EPE-EX-02 <AAm But when the Teleri learned that Ingw and Finw and their peoples were gone, they pressed on to the shore, and there dwelt in longing for their friends that had departed. And they took Olw, Elw's brother, to be their king.> But the Teleri dwelt long by the coasts of the western sea, awaiting Ulmo's return; and they grew to love the sound of the waves, and they made songs filled with the music of water. Oss EPE-EX-03 <AAm and Uinen> heard them, and came thither; and {he}they loved them, delighting in the music of their voices. Sitting upon a rock nigh to the margin of the sea {he}Oss spoke to them and instructed them. EPE-EX-04 <AAm {In this year}At last Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of Finw and went again to Middle-earth to bring Elw and his people to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed.> Great therefore was {his}Osss grief when Ulmo returned at length to bear them away to Valinor. Some he persuaded to remain on the beaches of the Middle-earth, and these were the Elves of the Falas that in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and {Eglorest}[Eglarest] in Beleriand; but most of the Teleri embarked upon the isle and were drawn far away. EPE-EX-05 <AAm The kinsfolk and friends of Elw also were unwilling to depart; but Olw would be gone, and at last Ulmo took all who would embark upon Eressa and drew them over the deeps of the Sea. And the friends of Elw were left behind, and they called themselves, therefore, in their own tongue the {Eglath}[Egladrim], the Forsaken People. And they sought still for Elw in sorrow. But it was not his doom ever to return to the Light of the Trees, greatly though he had desired it. Yet the Light of Aman was in the face of Melian the fair, and in that light he was content.> EPE-EX-06 <AAm Crdan the Shipwright was {their}the lord[ of the {Eglath}[Egladrim]].> EPE-EX-07<HoME 12; Crdan This is the Sindarin for 'Shipwright',[footnote to the text: Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the 'Sea of Rhun', where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Crdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful.] and describes his later functions in the history of the First Three Ages; but must include even Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn.
Crdan was a Telerin Elf, and the other Sindar Falathrim 'people of the foaming shore'.
It was during the long waiting of the Teleri for the return of the floating isle, until nearly all the Teleri of Olw's following had departed.
Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, that it cast a shadow of Crdan upon the strand where he stood.
As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship [footnote to the text: Vingilt, {'Sprayflower'}['Foamflower'].{[Beside 'Spray' my father subsequently wrote 'Foam', and noted also:} wing, Sindarin gwing, is properly a flying spume or spindrift blown off wavetops'{: see p. 376, note 24.]}] which after apprenticeship to Crdan, and ever with his advice and help, Erendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that EPE-EX-08{night}[time] onwards Crdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.>
EPE-EX-09 <Q&E Crdan's folk were made up both ... and they were among the most friendly to the Exiles.
They continued to call themselves the Eglain, ... which included the ship-havens of Crdan at Brithonbar and at the head of the firth of Eglarest.
The Eglain became a people somewhat apart from the inland Elves, and at the time of the coming of the Exiles their language was in many ways different.>
37 Oss followed {them}the Teleri, By this long sojourn of the Teleri apart in the Lonely Isle was caused the sundering of their speech from the language of the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} and the Noldor. EPE-EX-10 <LT {Twice}[Once] now had that isle of their dwelling caught the gleam of the glorious Trees of Valinor, and so was it already fairer and more fertile and more full of sweet plants and grasses than the other places of all the world beside where great light had not been seen; and here was the dwelling even in those deepest days of the {Solosimpi}[Teleri].
There Ulmo sate upon a headland and the sound of their wistful piping might be heard for many a long day come faintly down the winds.
Then Falman-Oss's heart melted towards them and the {Oarni}[Earni] and all the spirits of the waves were enamoured of them.
So danced the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] upon the waves' brink, and the love of the sea and rocky coasts entered in their hearts, even though they gazed in longing towards the happy shores whither long ago the {Teleri}[Vanyar] and {Noldoli}[Noldor] had been borne.> EPE-EX-11 <AAm Finw grieved when the Teleri came not, and yet more when he learned that Elw was forsaken, and knew that he should not see him again, unless it were in the halls of Mandos.>
38 To {these}the Vanyar and oldor the Valar had given a land and dwellingplaces. There bloomed the first flowers that ever were east of the mountains of the {Gods}[Valar].
Quote:
[Tanaqui, Artist; no. 25; p. 25]
Tanaqui
EPE-EX-12 <LT Behold there {is}was a low place in that ring of mountains that guards Valinor, and harebells grow atop of it ringing softly in the gentle breath of Sulimo.
Quote:
[The Shores of Faery; Artist; no. 44; p. 48]
The Shores of Faery
Here was the place that those fair Elves bethought them to dwell{, and the Gods they named that hill Kor by reason of its roundness and its smoothness}. Thither did Aul bring all the dust of magic metals that his great works had made and gathered, and their golden fruit shone richly.>
39 Upon the crown of Tna, the green hill, the city of the Elves was built, the white walls and terraces of Tirion; and the highest of the towers of that city was the Tower of Ingw, the Mindon, Mindon Eldaliva, whose silver lamp shone far out into the mists of the sea. Few are the ships of mortal Men that have seen its slender beam. In Tirion[footnote to the text: That is the Watchful City. Eldamar (that is Elvenhome) it was also called; but the regions where the Elves dwelt, and whence the stars could be seen, were called Elend, or Eldanor (that is Elvenland){: quoth lfwine}.] the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} and the oldor dwelt long time in fellowship. And since of all things in Valinor they loved most the White Tree, Yavanna made for them a tree in all things like a lesser image of Telperion, save that it did not give light of its own being; and this tree was planted in the courts beneath the Tower and there flourished, and its seedlings were many in Eldanor. Of which one was after planted in Eressa, and prospered. Thence came in the fullness of time, as is later told, the White Tree of Nmenor.
40 Manw and Varda loved most the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]}, the {High}[Fair] Elves, and holy and immortal were all their deeds and songs. The Noldor were beloved of Aul, and of Mandos the wise; and great became their knowledge and their skill. Yet ever greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and their desire to make things wonderful and new. They were changeful in speech, for they had great love of words, and sought ever to find names more fit for all things that they knew or imagined. EPE-EX-13{In Valinor they first contrived the fashioning of gems, and they made them in countless myriads of many kinds and hues; and they filled all Elend with them, and the halls of the Gods in Valinor were enriched.}<QS rewritten And in all crafts of hand they delighted also; and their masons built many towers tall and slender, and many halls and houses of marble. Thus it came to pass that, quarrying in the hills after stone, the Noldor first discovered gems, in which the Land of Aman was indeed surpassing rich, and they brought them forth in countless myriads of many kinds and hues; and they carved and fashioned them in shapes of bright beauty, and they filled all Elend with them, and the halls of the {Gods}[Valar] in Valinor were enriched.> EPE-EX-14{
41 The Noldor afterwards came back to Middle-earth, Her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin.}
43 Here must be told how the Teleri came at last to Valinor. EPE-EX-15{For nigh on one hundred of the years of Valinor, which were each as ten of the years of the Sun that were after made, they dwelt in Tol Eressa.}<QS rewritten For well-nigh one hundred of the years of our time EPE-SL-01 { (though that be but ten of the Years of the Valar)} they dwelt in Tol Eressa.> But slowly their hearts were moved, Yet in the end desire of the light was the stronger. {Therefore Ulmo taught them the craft of ship-building; and Oss, submitting to Ulmo, brought them as his farewell gift the strong-winged swans.}[Therefore Ulmo, submitting to the will of the Valar, sent unto them Oss their friend, and he, albeit in grief, taught them the craft of ship-building; and when their ships were built he brought to them as his farewell gift the strong-winged swans.] These they harnessed to their fleet of white ships, and thus they were drawn without the help of the winds to Valinor. EPE-EX-16 <LT
{Know then that the}The Lonely Island is upon the confines of the Great Sea. Now that Great Sea or the Western Water is beyond the westernmost limits of the Great Lands, and in it are many lands and islands ere beyond their anchorage you reach the Magic Isles, and beyond these still lies Tol Eressa. EPE-EX-17{But beyond Tol Eressa is the misty wall the Great Lands where Men after roamed. }But the farthest shore of those Shadowy Seas is {Arvalin or Erumani}[Avathar] to the far south, but more northerly do they lap the very coasts of Eldamar, and here are they broader to one faring west.
Beyond {Arvalin}[Avathar] tower those huge Mountains of Valinor and yet is that distance counted only in unimagined leagues.
EPE-EX-18But now {comes}came that strange fleet and few fish swim beneath their depths.
But now upon the hill of {Kor}[Tna] {is}was a running and a joyous concourse, and {mingle}mingled with the singing of the {Teleri}[Vanyar] and the {Noldoli}[Noldor]'s faint music.
Far behind lay Tol Eressa whither came the wailing of his sea-birds far away.
{Now the}The {Solosimpi}[Teleri] abode not much in {Kor}[Tirion] but had strange dwellings among the shoreland rocks, and even did {Valmar}[Valimar] grow more fair beneath their skilful hands.
Now is to tell how the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] fared often about the near seas in their swanships, Marvellous were the beaches of Elend in those days. EPE-EX-19 <AAm 76 In this {year}time Olw lord of the Teleri, with the aid of Finw and the Noldor, began the building of Alqualond, the Swanhaven, upon the coast of Eldamar, north of the {Kalakiryan}[Calacirya].> And many pearls they won for themselves from the sea, and their halls were of pearl, north of {Kalakiryan}[Calacirya], where the light of the stars was bright and clear.>
45 As the ages passed the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} grew to love the land of the {Gods}[Valar] making far journeys in search of the secrets of land and water and all living things, {[struck out: yet their intercourse was more with the Teleri than with the Lindar (> Vanyar); and]} the {tongues [> }peoples{]} of Tna and of Alqualond drew together in those days. Finw was king of Tna and {Elw [> }Olw{]} of Alqualond; but Ingw was ever held the high-king of all the Elves. He dwelt thereafter at the feet of Manw upon Taniquetil.
Quote:
[(Halls of Manw (Taniquetil); Artist; no. 52; p. 56]
Halls of Manw
EPE-EX-20 <LQ, moved 41 The Noldor afterwards came back to Middle-earth, and this tale tells mostly of their deeds; therefore the names and kinship of their princes may here be told in that form which these names after had in the tongue of {the Gnomes as it was [> }the Elves{]} in Beleriand upon the Middle-earth.
EPE-EX-21 <Shiboleth
The names of Finw's descendants
Few of the oldest names of the Eldar are recorded, also in the Old Quenya adjective wra, Quenya vra 'personal, private, own'.
The first elements were often later explained as related to Quenya inga 'top, highest point' to have any connexion with the name of the Ciriran (mariner king) of the Teleri of Valinor.[footnote to the text: Connexion with Telerin vola 'a roller, long wave', which was sometimes made by the Teleri themselves, was not a serious 'etymology' but a kind of pun; for the king's name was not normally Volw (Common Eldarin *wolwē) but Olw in Telerin as in Quenya, and w was not lost before o in Telerin as it was in Quenya. Also the connexion of the Teleri with sea-faring developed long after the naming of Olw.]
It must be realized that the names of the Eldar were not necessarily 'meaningful', observed in their language as compared with Primitive Eldarin.
This accommodation was mainly of the 'unheeded' kind: in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode.[footnote to the text: It was otherwise in written histories used when speaking Sindarin.]
The oldor of course fully understood the style and mode of Sindarin, though they were more or less similar in sound.
It was, however, certainly the contact with Sindarin and the Western.[footnote to the text: His sons were too occupied in war and feuds to pay attention to such matters, as they could of the Khuzdl.]
The learning of the loremasters was available to all who were interested; were kept for ever undimmed in intricate detail in their minds.
Here are some of the chief names of Finw and his descendants:
1. [The names of Finw and his spouses]
Finw for whom no other names are recorded She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingw's sister.
2. [The names of the Child of Mriel]
The only child of Mriel in which ea was frequent but ae did not normally occur.
Quote:
[Heraldic Devices; Fanor; Pictures; no. 47]
Fanor
3. [The names of the Children of Indis]
Finw had four children by Indis: since Lalwen fitted the style of Sindarin well enough.[footnote to the text: But the true equivalent in Sindarin was {Glawen}[Gladhwen] (Common Eldarin stem g-lada- > Quenya lala-, Telerin glada, Sindarin {gla-}[galadh-]).]
To his sons Finw gave his own name certainly the noblest of the children of Finw (which might have proved true, if he had not become the proudest and most arrogant).
The oldor in exile as a rule chose one only of their names to be given a Sindarin shape; this was the name, usually, which each preferred (for various reasons), though the ease of 'translation' and its fitting into Sindarin style was also considered.
Quote:
[Finarfin and Fingolfin; Fingolfin; Artist; no. 192; p. 195]
Fingolfin
On Fanor, Faenor see above. in the Northern dialect Fim, as in Curufim.)[footnote to the text: See 6. The names of the Sons of Fanor below.] EPE-EX-22{Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finw to olofinw abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.} The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin EPE-EX-23{in single combat with Morgoth. The oldor then became divided and the following of Finrod had become the greatest}.
Quote:
[Finarfin and Fingolfin; Finarfin; Artist; no. 192; p. 195]
Finarfin
4. [The names of the Children of Fingolfin]
The children of Fingolfin. Fingolfin's wife Anair refused to leave Aman, largely because of her friendship with Erwen wife of Arafinw (though she was a oldo and not one of the Teleri).
But all her children went with their father: Findekno, Turukno, Arakno, and riss his daughter and third child; she was under the protection of Turukno who loved her dearly, and of Elenw his wife. Findekno had no wife or child; neither had Arakno.
These names were probably father-names, he wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold.
Arakno was the tallest of the brothers Sindar in memory of his valour).
riss who went ever with the people of Turgon was called reth, by substitution of Sindarin eth (< -ittā) frequent in feminine names for Quenya -iss. EPE-EX-24 <editorial addition based on HOME12 Maeglin But most often she was called Aredhel (Noble-Elf).> Elenw her {mother}[sister in law] had no Sindarin name, for she never reached Beleriand. EPE-EX-25{She perished in the crossing of the Ice; Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenw was covered in fallen ice.}
Itaril, or in longer form Itarill, EPE-EX-26<the daughter of Turgon and Elenw> was the only child in the third generation from Finw to go with the exiles, save only Arothir son of Angrod brother of Finrod EPE-EX-27 <editorial addition and Celebrimbaur son of Curufin son of Fanor>. {Both}The fromer have both renown in the legends of the Silmarillion; but Itaril had a great destiny, for she was the mother of Ardamir. Erendil. Her name in Sindarin form was Idril, but this also was only an alteration of form, for neither of the Quenya stems that the name contains were found in Sindarin.[footnote to the text: (1) it in itila 'twinkling, glinting', and ta 'a flash', ita- verb 'to sparkle'. (2) ril- 'brilliant light': cf. silmaril(l), the name given by Fanor to his three Jewels. The first was especially applied to the bright lights of the eyes, which were a mark of all the High Eldar who had ever dwelt in Valinor, and at times in later ages reappeared in their descendants among mortal men, whether from Itaril or Lthien.]
5. [The names of the Children of Finarfin]
The children of Finarfin. EPE-EX-28 <LQ, moved {Finrod [> Finarphin]}[Finarfin] was the fairest, and the most wise of heart of Finws sons; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olw, lord of the Teleri, EPE-EX-29 <HoME 5; Appendix 1(as Elulindo)> and had to wife Erwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualond, Olw's daughter.> {These}Their children were named: Findarto Ingoldo; Angarto; Aikanro; and Nerwend Artanis, surnamed Alatriel. The wife of Angarto was named Eldalt, and his son Artaher. Quenya Artaher (stem artaher-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothir. EPE-EX-30 <Note on the parentage of Gil-galad (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains.{. ..} His children were Finduilas and Aratanro {=}Sindarized Rodnor later called EPE-EX-31 <editorial addition Ereinion >Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.)>
{Eellos}[Edhellos] translated Eldalt according to sense: though aeg would have been its form if it had occurred.[footnote to the text: Quenya aika was derived from This word is also found in the Quenya name Erendil, the mariner (sea-lover){; see p. 348}.
The stem acquired in Quenya in which ayanu- was the name of the Spirits of Eru's first creation.]
Galadriel was chosen by Artanis ('noble woman') to be her Sindarin name; for it was the most beautiful of her names, and, though as an epess EPE-EX-32{, had been given to her by her lover, Teleporno of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand. As he gave} it was given in Telerin form {it was}as Alatāriel(l). could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.>
6. The names of the Sons of Fanor.
/Fanors wife Nerdanel refused to leave Aman. Fanor named his seven sons: Nelyafinw, Kanafinw, Turkafinw, Kurufinw, Morifinw, and the twins Pityafinw and Telufinw./
Nelyafinw /or shorter/ Nelyo /meaned /Finw third in succession[footnote to the text: his grandfather was Finw, and his father Kurufinw, first named Finw also]. /His mother name was/ Maitimo 'well-shaped one': he was of beautiful bodily form. But he, and the youngest, inherited the rare red-brown hair of Nerdanel's kin, Her father had the epess of rusco 'fox'. So Maitimo had as an epess given by his brothers and other kin Russandol 'copper-top'.>< Nerdanel's father was an {'Aulendil' [> }'Aulendur'{]}[footnote to the text: 'Servant of Aul': sc. one who was devoted to that Vala. It was applied especially to those persons, or families, among the oldor who actually entered Aul's service, and who in return received instruction from him.], and became a great smith. He loved copper, and set it above gold. His name was {[space; pencilled later }Sarmo{?]}, but he was most widely known as Urundil 'copper-lover'. EPE-EX-33<SF marginal note VT 41, Nerdanel's father was excepcional, being only early in his second cycle of life and having a beard.> EPE-EX-34< SF marginal note VT 41 Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life.> He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the oldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. Of Nerdanel's seven children the oldest, and the twins (a very rare thing among the Eldar) had hair of this kind. The eldest also wore a copper circlet.> </The Sindarin form /Maedros combines elements/ of Nelyafinwe's mother name: Maiti- (Commen Eldarin magiti- shapely, Sindarin maed){ and of the epesse russandol (C.E. russā, S. ross)}.>
<Kanafinw (Kno) /means/ strong-voiced or commanding/. Nerdanel named her second son/ Makalaur /which is of/ {Of} uncertain meaning. Usually interpreted (and said to have been a 'prophetic' mother-name) as 'forging gold'. If so, probably a poetic reference to his skill in harping, the sound of which was 'golden' (laur was a word for golden light or colour, never used for the metal). <Makalaure was converted simply phonetically to {S. }/Sindarin/ maglaur > maglor. Its pure Sindarin {[}development{]} would have been {[deleted: maka-glawar]} maka-glaur-. In {S.}/Sindarin/ glaware > glawar {= Q.}/being in Quenya/ laure, but as second element in {compound}compounds glaware {>}/became/ glaur. /Thus yielding /magalor-.>
Turkafinw /in short/ Turko /means/ strong, powerful (in body). /His mother-name was/ <Tyelkormo 'hasty-riser'. Quenya tyelka 'hasty'. Possibly in reference to his quick temper, and his habit of leaping up when suddenly angered.> /Tyelkormo became Celegorm in Sindarin./ <{S.}/Sindarin/ celeg (*kelekā) {= Q.}/being in Quenya/ tyelka. The form was celeg-orm because in North Sindarin medial m was not opened {[}to v{]} as in {[?}Western{]} Sindarin.>
Kurufinw /or shorter/ Kurvo /is/ Fanor's own name; given to this, his favourite son, because he alone showed in some degree the same temper and talents. He also resembled Fanor very much in face. /Therefore Nerdanel named him /<Atarink 'little father' - referring to his physical likeness to Fanor, later found to be also seen in his mind.> /Kurufinw chosed his fathername to be Sindarzied to /<Curufin so usually written {= Kurufinwe}. {C.E.}/Common Eldarin/ kuru- skill, especially in artifices and devices. {Q.}/Quenya/ kuro (kuru-) a skilful {[?}device{]}. Kurwe skill of the hand. {[}In{]} Sindarin kurwē {>}/became/ curu-. Finw would in fact have given {S.}/Sindarin/ Fim but the Noldor Sindarized it as -fin.>
Morifinw 'dark' - he was black-haired as his grandfather. /In short his name was /Moryo/. His mother name was/ <Carnistir 'red-face' - he {was}/had/ dark {(}brown{) haired}/hair/, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother.> <{[}In{]} Sindarin carani- {>}/became/ caran {+}/and/ r face ({<}/developed form Common Eldarin/ stīrē) {[?}substituted{]} for {Q.}/Quenya/ car'ni-str(e). So /it became /Caranthir.>
Pityafinw 'Little Finw'{.} (Pityo)/ and/ Telufinw Last Finw'{.} (Telvo) <The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa - for they were much alike and remained so while they lived. When Fanor begged that their names should at least be different Nerdanel looked strange, and after a while said: 'Then let one be called {[Ambarto >] }Umbarto, but which, time will decide.'
Fanor was disturbed by this ominous name ('Fated'), and changed it to Ambarto - or in some versions thought Nerdanel had said Ambarto, using the same first element as in Ambarussa (sc. amba {+}/and/ Quenya arta 'exalted, lofty'). But Nerdanel said: Umbarto I spoke, yet do as you wish. It will make no difference.'>
<The twins called each other Ambarussa. The name Ambarto/Umbarto was used by {[?}no one{]}. The twins remained alike, but the elder grew darker in hair, and was more dear to his father. After childhood they {[?}were not to be{]} confused. EPE-EX-35<VT41 Others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa, that is 'First-russa' and 'Second-russa'.> <Amros{(1)}/ is/ Sindarin for Ambarussa<({C.E.}/Commen Eldarin/ russā, {S.}/Sindarin/ ross)>. {Had Amros(2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the}The name Ambarto{]} would probably have been {[}Sindarized{]} as Amrod, but when {[?}encountered{]} at all in Sindarin form it was {[?] }Amarthan/,/ Fated One. {S.}/Sindarin/ ambart- {>}/became/ ammarth, amarth fate{ =}/. Thus the name translated was/ Umbarto.>
<All the sons save Curufin preferred their mother-names and were ever afterwards remembered by them{.}>/: /EPE-EX-36<LQ, moved The seven sons of Fanor were/ in Sindarised form/ {Maidros [> Maedhros]}[Maedros] the tall; Maglor a musician and a mighty singer, whose voice was heard far over land and sea; {Celegorn [> }Celegorm{]} the fair, and {Cranthir [> }Caranthir{]} the dark; and Curufin the crafty, who inherited most of his father's skill of hand; and the youngest {Damrod and Diriel [> Amrod and Amras]}[Amros and Amarthan], who were twin brothers alike in mood and face. EPE-EX-37 {They}[Amros] afterwards {were}was a great {hunters}hunter in the woods of Middle-earth. A hunter also was {Celegorn [> }Celegorm{]}, who in Valinor was a friend of Orom and followed oft the great {god}[Vala]'s horn.>
EPE-EX-38<Of Dwarves and Men, Note 7 Maedros the eldest appears to have been unwedded, also the two youngest {(twins, of whom one was by evil mischance burned with the ships)}; Celegorm also{, since he plotted to take Lthien as his wife}. But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father's skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife {(unnamed) }did not. Others who were wedded were {Maelor}[Maglor]{,} and Caranthir.> EPE-EX-39<Of Dwarves and Men, Note 7 Celebrinbaur {(}silverfisted{, >}in Sindarin Celebrimbor{)}, was the son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fanor and remained in Aman with the people of {Finarphin}[Finarfin]).>
EPE-EX-40 Fanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long. since the fashion of the World was changed.
EPE-EX-01: That all Eldar desired the sea once they seen it is even supported in LotR and here weg et the reason for it.

EPE-EX-02: LQ does not tell that the Teleri had first to move to the shore.

EPE-EX-03: Again an info only given in AAm.

EPE-EX-04: Finws prayer was not in LQ.

EPE-EX-05: Interisting, but the kin of Elw searching form were not in LQ.

EPE-EX-06 & EPE-EX-07: The essay Crdan and in introduction added.

EPE-EX-08: Since we are in the age of the Trees, in Middle-earth all is one long night, therefore we have to change it.

EPE-EX-09: This does connect back to the text of LQ were we already have mentioned on of these fractions.

EPE-EX-10: Later the Isle is never described in such detail.

EPE-EX-11: Again the freindship of Finw and Elw are only given in AAm.

EPE-EX-12: The farther description of Bay of Eldamar and Tirion up on Tuna was what is wanted here.

EPE-EX-13: Here JRR Tolkien later then writing LQ 1 re-wrote QS with a substantially fuller passage that I took.

EPE-EX-14: The first of this passage is moved to lead over to the linguistical stuff. And the rest is replaced by it.

EPE-EX-15: Here again JRR Tolkien later then writing LQ 1 re-wrote QS with a substantially fuller passage that I took.

EPE-SL-01: We want to avoid to give any relation between Valian Years and Years of the Sun.

EPE-EX-16: Again a nice description from LT.

EPE-EX-17: The Shadowy Seas and the Twilit Isles are at least in the later story line put east of Tol Eresse and only placed later.

EPE-EX-18: In this paragraphs I changed historical presnt used often in LT to past tense.

EPE-EX-19: The help of the Noldor in building the haven is not mentioned in LT.

EPE-EX-20: Here we have the passage from EPE-EX-14 inserted to let to the linguistical stuff.

EPE-EX-21: As a fuller replacement for what is told in LQ 41 and 42 I used here what The Shiboleth has to say about the names of the noldor princes.

EPE-EX-22: This is to be used in its chronological place.

EPE-EX-23: Even so this a pre-telling I think up to this point it is bearable.

EPE-EX-24: We have to add the name Aredhel.

EPE-EX-25: This is to be used in its chronological place.

EPE-EX-26: In the original text this is told in skiped passage. See EPE-EX-25.

EPE-EX-27: I added Celebrimbor.

EPE-EX-28: Another snippet from LQ 41 and 42 that would other wise been lost.

EPE-EX-29: There was a discussion about the name Elulindo and if we can include it. If we want to do so then here is the right place.

EPE-EX-30: Even so the childern of Orodreth are born in Beleriand, I think we should include them here.

EPE-EX-31: The name Ereinion is not given in this note.

EPE-EX-32: LotR specifies Celeborn as Sindar, therefore Teleporno has be removed.

EPE-EX-33 & EPE-EX-34: I add here what we know about Nerdanels father.

EPE-EX-35: VT has these info which is nice to enlarge these outline.

EPE-EX-36: Again a snippet from LQ 41 and 42.

EPE-EX-376: As we burn Amarthan with the ships of the Teleri, we have to remove him here.

EPE-EX-38 & EPE-EX-39: The information who of the Feanorians was married and what we know about Celebrimbor have been put in here.

EPE-EX-40: This is the last part of this chapter in LQ. I found it very much fitting as addition here to give some more substance to the thin passage about the Feanorians.

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Old 09-27-2017, 05:50 PM   #2
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Before I reply to each change, as a general rule: oldor > Noldor. This is the form we are using, as this is meant to be written in the Third Age by Bilbo, who would have used the Exilic > N change (as well as K > C) and thus should only be used when discussing the etymology or linguistics of it.
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:14 AM   #3
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Here are my comments. This was another great draft, Fin, and I do not have too many comments. Anything I do not mention I agree to.

EPE-EX-10: Why change twice to once? The island has been used to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor to Valinor, and then is brought back to ferry the Teleri. it is thus exposed to the light of the trees twice.

EPE-EX-12.1: In the phrase "bay of Arvalin" you changed it to "Avathar." In the old conception of the beginning of the Lost Tales, Arvalin was a catch-all name for what would become both Avathar and Araman, and thus the bay was right in the middle. As Avathar is only to the south of the bay, I think this change shouldtus be to "Elvenhome" or "Elende," as Avathar is not really accurate.

EPE-EX-12.2: In the next paragraph, There are two instances of the name "Silpion" that need to be changed to "Telperion." In addition, in this section:
Quote:
Here was the place that those fair Elves bethought them to dwell{, and the Gods they named that hill Kor by reason of its roundness and its smoothness}. Thither did Aul bring all the dust of {magic}[marvelous] metals ...
The word magic I have changed to marvelous, as it cannot stand as is.

EPE-EX-12.3: Where the Lost Tales insertion returns to the QS text, because the city has just been described, a "Thus" is need to smooth the transition. I know we dont change for reasons of style, but we make this exception in order to transition between insert and base text.

EPE-EX-16: this may be considered too purely stylistic, but I was wondering if we could change "beyond their anchorage {you reach}[are reached] the Magic Isles,". In the original version, someone is telling this story to Eriol, thus the you.

EPE-EX-16.1: In the concluding bit:
Quote:
But the farthest shore of those Shadowy Seas is {Arvalin or Erumani}[Avathar] to the far south, and Araman to the north, but {more northerly}[in the center] do they lap the very coasts of Eldamar, and here are they broader to one faring west.
The geography is wrong. The shadowy seas extend on both sides of the bay, both north and south. We either need to remove this bit, or ad in an editorial addition like what I have italicized above. As another note, in all subsequent occurrences of "Arvalin" I would change it to "Avathar and Araman," not just Avathar, for reasons already given.

EPE-EX-16.2: Further on we have:
Quote:
But the {Teleri}[Vanyar] and Inwir gathered {[?}harvest{]} of poesy and song
Inwir should be Ingwi, as per the Shibboleth of Feanor, or Ingar as per the Laws and Customs.

EPE-EX-21: I could not find your marker for 21, so I used the number for my comment. In this bit in the Names section:
Quote:
The Sindar knew little of the Valar and had no names for any of them, save Orom (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manw and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Orom; and the Great Enemy whom the Noldor called Melkor. For Orom a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin (recalling the sound of his great horn) of which Orom was the Quenya form, though in Sindarin it had become Araw, and by the Sindar he was later more often called (Aran) Tauron 'the (king) forester'. Manw and Varda they knew only by the names 'Elder King' and 'Star-queen': Aran Einior and Elbereth. Melkor they called Morgoth 'the Black Enemy', refusing to use the Sindarin form of Melkor: Belegur 'he that arises in might', save (but rarely) in a deliberately altered form Belegurth 'Great Death'. These names Tauron, Aran Einior, Elbereth, and Morgoth the Noldor adopted and used when speaking Sindarin.
This is wrong, as there are Sindarin names for almost all the Valar, except Nienna and Vana. (Ulmo = Ulu, Guiar, Gulma; Aule = li, l; Yavanna = Ivon, Ivann; Mandos = Bannos; Lorien = Lrin, Glurim; Este = Idh; Tulkas = Tulcus; Vaire = Gwr; Nessa = Neth) In addition, we have stated that Orome told the Elves his given Valarin name of Aromez, which they simply changed to Orome /Araw. Should these other names be included? or should this passage be edited some other way at least to reflect their existence and the origin of the name of Orome?

EPE-EX-21.1: For {erinde}[Serind] why? Would it not be better to include the main text of the Shibboleth about the tension between Feanor and Fingolfin bc of his shibboleth?

EPE-EX-21.2: Right before marker 22, it says "as in Curufim" with a direction that this will be addressed later. However, the word Curufim is not mentioned again, although the fim > fin issue is. should this remain as is?

EPE-EX-23: I see that this cannot be used here, but it should be used in the Ruin of Beleriand chapter.

EPE-EX-23.1: in the footnote:
Quote:
Kno meant in Quenya 'commander', usually as the title of a lesser chief, especially one acting as the deputy of one higher in rank. [footnote to the text: It was a derivative of Common Eldarin KAN 'cry, call aloud', which developed divergent meanings (like 'call' in English or the Germanic stem hait-) depending on .....
the italicized part must go as it references English and German in the text. same for the later
Quote:
and often applied to lamentation (though not as English 'cry' to weeping tears): ....
EPE-EX-23.2: The footnote: "See note XX on pageYY" I am not sure what it means.

EPE-EX-29: I would say he could be included, but the editorial addition should be different, as this does not work. Maybe just (such as Elulindo) instead of "as"

EPE-EX-31.1: In this sentence:
Quote:
Air was used by the Eldar as a title of address to the Valar and the greater Myar.
Is Mayar simply a variant spelling of Maiar? is it his new standard? or is it something we should change?

EPE-EX-32.1: All the additions about Nerdanel's father here have been added into the DoV chapter, but they fit much better here. Thus we must be sure to remove them from the DoV draft.

EPE-EX-32.5: Another footnote is added right after Urundil 'copper-lover':
Quote:
RUN 'red, glowing', most often applied to things like embers, hence adjective runya, Sindarin ruin ' "fiery" red'. The Eldar had words for some metals, because under Orom’s instruction they had devised weapons against Morgoth's servants especially on the March, but the only ones that appear in all Eldarin languages were iron, copper, gold and silver (ANGA, URUN> MALAT> KYELEP).
EPE-EX-34.1: Why delete the last bit from the Maedros paragraph about the russ- / -ros part of his name?

That is everything I saw! It is so good to have this chapter added to my drafts, I have been excited to see how it would turn out!

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Old 09-28-2017, 05:21 PM   #4
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[{oldor}[Noldor]: Agreed. We discussed that before, I just didn’t found the time to make that change effective in my drafts, because every instant is to be checked with the original source. I will do sooner or later.

EPE-EX-10: It has at this time be use to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor together and is know when coming back from Beleriand routed in the Bay of Eldamar, where its newly exposition to the light of the Trees differently from the first one, since it is farther away from the shore and that is described a few lines later. In the LT version Vanyar (their named Teleri) and Noldor were transported seperatly, therefore ‘two-times’ was right in that tale, but is wrong in our version.

EPE-EX-12.1: Agreed, I did only made the regular change with out any farther thought. But I would take ‘Eldamar’ as a replacement, since that seems to be the more regulary used name for the Bay.

EPE-EX-12.2: I agree on {magic}[marvellous]. But Silpion is still a valid name of the Tree. I have observed your trend to rename it in any instant, but I dout that this is necessary.

EPE-EX-12.3: Agreed.

EPE-EX-16: Your reasoning is good and I don’t think it is stylistic. It is rather due to the story line change we did introduce, so I will call it EPE-SL-02.

EPE-EX-16.1: You are right, in a way, but even in the old geography Arvalin was in the north and in the south touching the Shadowy Sea. So as it stood the text gave the infromtion only of the southern himispher and so does it as I changed it. What is the issue with that?
I agree to change {Arvalin}[Avathar and Araman] if it is fitting.

EPE-EX-16.2: Shiboleth is the later source so ‘Ingwi’ it should be.

EPE-EX-21 Is the beginning of the section taken from the Shibboleth, right before that title. So we should refer to your comment about the Sindarin names of the Valar as
EPE-EX-21.05: To have Sindarin names applied to the Valar does not render this passage untrue since they could have been invented by the Noldor after they adopted Sindarin as their dayly speech. I agree that we have to eliminate ‘(recalling the sound of his great horn)’ since that is contradicted by the story we have given at his arrival by the Elves. For the rest I am in doubt here. Could you provide the source for these names, please?

EPE-EX-21.1: We might include the full text, but probably not here. As yet it was forseen as a part of volume 3 (or not?). But even if we think it should be taken earlier, this place is too early, since all the names given here are given in a preview.

EPE-EX-21.2: I think it can stand because the footnote dose sguide the reader to the right place to look for the explaination, even so ‘Curufim’ is not mentioned.

EPE-EX-23: Agreed.

EPE-EX-23.1: I disagree to this. We discussed this before when editing the ‘lfwine and Drhavel’ text for the introduction of the ‘Narn’. We produce a text in English for English readers. It is not supposed to have any Middel-earth existence as such, since we aknowledge that it is a compilation of us from different sources. So even if we remove lfwine and his references to Anglosaxon, we may nonetheless keep comparisions to English or German of today.

EPE-EX-23.2: That is a reference to another footnote. But as it stands it can only be filled with sensefull information when the text is in final editing. Alternatively we could remove it.

EPE-EX-29: Agreed.

EPE-EX-31.1: Good question. This is asking for in indept research if ‘Maiar’ was used in later texts and if ‘Myar’ was used in any other place. Anybody with some time at hand, for such an endeavour?

EPE-EX-32.1: Agreed.

EPE-EX-32.5: Okay, I mist that. We will reinstall it.

EPE-EX-34.1: Okay, that was an artefact of a time when we called him ‘Maedron’. Since we came in the end back to ‘Maedros’, we can let this stand.

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Old 09-29-2017, 10:39 AM   #5
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Everything I do not respond to I agree with.

EPE-EX-021.05: If the Noldor simply made Sindarin versions of their names then that would contradict what is said a sentence before the excerpt I gave:
Quote:
Thus the names of the Valar which they had devised in Valinor were not as a rule changed, whether they fitted Sindarin style or not.
This would mean that these Sindarin names are in origin from the Sindar themselves. On another note, whether the other names are considered no longer valid or not, how can the Sindar be said to know nothing of Ulmo, when he is said to have visited Nevrast often, and to have drawn the island with the elves (the people of Thingol chose to stay, so they saw him)? As for the sources for these names:
Ulmo = I could not find a source for these names, but he is given others in the Etymologies.
Aule = I actually cannot find a source for his, but I found other names in the Etymologies.
Yavanna = This name comes from the Etymologies, but is attested in the latest of writings, in "Of Lembas" in the compound: Ivonwin: Maidens of Yavanna, as well as the Sindarin name for the month of Yavannie: Ivanneth.
Mandos = This name comes from the Etymologies as the Sindarin equivalent.
Lorien = This name comes from an early essay on the Gnomish language found in Parma Eldalamberon.
Este = This name comes from Quendi and the Eldar in the Note on the Language of the Valar.
Tulkas = This name is from the Gnomish Lexicon, so it is quite old.
Vaire = This name comes from the Etymologies
Nessa = This name comes from the Etymologies
Of course, many of these names are not sourced from up-to-date texts, but the fact that the name of Yavanna occurs in a very very late writing and in the Lord of the Rings itself, along with the logical error that they would have no name for Ulmo, and the fact that Este is given a name in the late writing of Quendi and the Eldar all point to the fact that Tolkien had forgotten some facts about what he had published or what he had in mind changed back to its original state.
Thus, since this passage clearly cannot be said to be true, I suggest we revise it. Here is my suggestion:

Quote:
The Sindar knew little of the Valar EPE-EX-21.05 {and}[but] had {no} names for {any}[all] of them, editorial addition{save} [the most common of which were] Orom (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manw and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Orom; and the Great Enemy whom the Noldor called Melkor. For Orom a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin {(recalling the sound of his great horn)} of which Orom was .....
I know this editorial addition is risky, and if you have a better suggestion I would love to hear it, as this seems like a clumsy solution.

EPE-EX-23.2: why was this reference needed? was it given in the base text? Either way I would remove it, as we have no other instances of this type of thing.

EPE-EX-3.1: All I could find was its use in a footnote (also in Shibboleth) but nowhere else in the HoME texts. I do not own Vinyar Tengwar or Parma Eldalamberon, so I cannot search those documents to see if they contain it. However, I would stick to Maiar if no actual etymology can be found for the later form,as Maiar has a developed etymology, and a clear meaning, whereas the later form is ambiguous.
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Old 09-29-2017, 05:19 PM   #6
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EPE-EX-21.05: I agree that we have to change it. What about:
Quote:
... The Sindar knew little of the Valar EPE-EX-21.05{and}[but] had {no }names for {any}[all] of them, {save}[as] Orom (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manw and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Orom; and the Great Enemy whom the oldor called Melkor. For Orom a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin {(recalling the sound of his great horn) }of which Orom was the Quenya form, ...
EPE-EX-23.2: Sure the footnote is from the used source text and from JRR Tolkien himself. If footnotes are absolutley necessary can be questioned nearly in every case. The reference is to the long footnote just above about 'KAN'. So by all probabitlity it would only be a double reference to the same footnote.

EPE-EX-31.1: For the time being we should change it to 'Maiar'. If some other informations comes up, we are any time free to revise back to Myar.

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Old 09-29-2017, 06:08 PM   #7
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EPE-EX-21.05: I would use "especially" instead of "as". This flows better, and holds the meaning of the original more I think.

EPE-EX-23.2: I would recommend deleting it.

EPE-EX-31.1: sounds good.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:03 PM   #8
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EPE-EX-21.05: Agreed.

EPE-EX-23.2: Again, in the finished text it would amount to not more then two times the same reference number attached to two places in the text. Therefore I do not seen any good reason to skip it. At the time being I would change it to
Quote:
[footnote to the text: See note about KAN above]
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:35 PM   #9
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very well, it seems we are agreed on all points.
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:17 AM   #10
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I was actually wondering, should Celeborn be inserted into the story at this point? with a note about Elmo and the rest of the family tree?
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
EPE-EX-01 <AAm 66 Now Ulmo, by the counsel of the Valar, … their fear of the Sea was turned rather to desire.> There they waited and gazed upon the dark waves. But Ulmo came{ from the Valar}; and he uprooted a half-sunken island, … and they did not come until Ulmo had departed.
The first sentence is "Now Ulmo, by the counsel of the Valar, came to the shores of Middle-Earth and spoke to the eldar;...". Then the second and third sentences are "There they waited and gazed upon the dark waves. But Ulmo came;..." This seems slightly out of order. In the first sentence, Ulmo comes and speaks to the eldar; in the second, the eldar wait; in the third, Ulmo comes (again?). I propose this order: "There they waited and gazed upon the dark waves. <AAm 66 Now Ulmo, by the counsel of the Valar, … their fear of the Sea was turned rather to desire.> Therefore Ulmo {came from the Valar; and he} uprooted a half-sunken island, ..."

Quote:
EPE-EX-02 <AAm But when the Teleri learned that Ingw and Finw and their peoples were gone, they pressed on to the shore, and there dwelt in longing for their friends that had departed. And they took Olw, Elw's brother, to be their king.> But the Teleri dwelt long by the coasts of the western sea
I have a small stylistic recommendation here: Change "But the Teleri dwelt long" to "{But the Telerei} They dwelt long..." The phrase "But the Teleri" seems awkward here, especially since it was used two sentences prior.

EPE-EX-07: I really like the inclusion of the Cirdan material here.

Quote:
There Ulmo sate upon a headland … and the sound of their wistful piping might be heard for many a long day come faintly down the winds.
There is a "Solosimpsi" in this sentence which needs changing to Teleri.

Quote:
[Therefore Ulmo, submitting to the will of the Valar, sent unto them Oss their friend, and he, albeit in grief, taught them the craft of ship-building; and when their ships were built he brought to them as his farewell gift the strong-winged swans.]
This seems to contradict Cirdan from Last Writings: "...Cirdan had turned his thought and skill to the making of ships..."

Quote:
I was actually wondering, should Celeborn be inserted into the story at this point? with a note about Elmo and the rest of the family tree?
Since Celeborn and Elmo don't play into the narrative of the Quenta itself (as far as I know), I think it would be awkward to introduce them here. Introducing him in "Of Galadriel and Celeborn" makes more sense to me.

This chapter is another amazing amalgamation of Tolkien's works; great work!

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Old 10-03-2017, 04:21 AM   #12
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EPE-EX-01: Agreed.

EPE-EX-0: Agreed as well. I would rather call that a minimal change for reasons of gramatical awakwardness.

{Solosimpi}[Teleri] is a general change and was therefore not dokumented in this place in detail.

Baout Oss teaching the Teleri about ship building: We here that albeit Crdan thought otherwise his craft was by no means developed far enough to yield a ship fit for the crossing of Belegaer. And I would say this he is reported to be the most skilled in that craft that his was true for the Teleri upon Tol Eressea as well. So the help of Oss was needed.

Quote:
Since Celeborn and Elmo don't play into the narrative of the Quenta itself (as far as I know), I think it would be awkward to introduce them here. Introducing him in "Of Galadriel and Celeborn" makes more sense to me.
I agree in this point with gandalf85. If we would take Celeborn as grandson of Olw and as a companion of Galadriel on her lonely bost trip to Beleriand, ten we should introduce him some where here, but since we can't us that story, because Celeborn is a Sinda, we should not introduce him here.

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Old 11-06-2017, 01:24 PM   #13
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As I found no place to put this in Valinor and the Two Trees, I think we should use it in this chapter:
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39 EPE-EX-12.3 {Upon}Thus upon the crown of Tna, the green hill, the city of the Elves was built, the white walls and terraces of Tirion; and the highest of the towers of that city was the Tower of Ingw, the Mindon, Mindon Eldaliva, whose silver lamp shone far out into the mists of the sea. Few are the ships of mortal Men that have seen its slender beam. In Tirion[footnote to the text: That is the Watchful City. Eldamar (that is Elvenhome) it was also called; but the regions where the Elves dwelt, and whence the stars could be seen, were called Elend, or Eldanor (that is Elvenland){: quoth lfwine}.] the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} and the oldor dwelt long time in fellowship. And since of all things in Valinor they loved most the White Tree, Yavanna made for them a tree in all things like a lesser image of Telperion, save that it did not give light of its own being; and this tree was planted in the courts beneath the Tower and there flourished, and its seedlings were many in Eldanor. Of which one was after planted in Eressa, and prospered. Thence came in the fullness of time, as is later told, the White Tree of Nmenor. EPE-EX-12.4 <MT, Text XI
Aman
In Aman things were far otherwise than in Middle-earth. But they resembled the mode of Elvish life, just as the Elves more nearly resemble the Valar and Maiar than do Men.
In Aman the length of the unit of 'year' was the same as it was for the Quendi. But for a different reason. In Aman this length was assigned by the Valar for their own purposes, and was related to that process which may be called the 'Ageing of Arda'. For Aman was within Arda and therefore within the Time of Arda (which was not eternal, whether Unmarred or Marred). Therefore Arda and all things in it must age, however slowly, as it proceeds from beginning to end. This ageing could be perceived by the Valar in about that length of time (proportionate to the whole of Arda's appointed span) which they called a Year; but not in a less period.
But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.[Footnote to the text: They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator. In this way of perception they could foresee none of the acts of the Children, Elves and Men, in whose conceiving and introduction into E none of the Valar had played any part at all; concerning the Children they could only deduce likelihood, in the same way as can the Children themselves, though from a far greater knowledge of facts and the contributory events of the past, and with far greater intelligence and wisdom. Yet there always remained an uncertainty with regard to the words and deeds of Elves and Men in Time not yet unfolded.]
The unit, or Valian Year, was thus not in Aman related to the natural rates of 'growth' of any person or thing that dwelt there. Time in Aman was actual time, not merely a mode of perception. As, say, 100 years went by in Middle-earth as part of Arda, so 100 years passed in Aman, which was also a part of Arda. It was, however, the fact that the Elvish speed of 'growth' accorded with the unit of Valian time[Footnote to the text: Not by the design of the Valar, though doubtless not by chance. That is, it may be that Eru in designing the natures of Elves and Men and their relations one to another and to the Valar ordained that the 'growth' of the Elves should accord with the Valian perception of the progress or ageing of Arda, so that the Elves should be able to cohabit with the Valar and Maiar. Since the Children appeared in the Music, and also in the Vision, the Valar knew something or indeed much of the ordained natures of Elves and Men before they came into existence. They knew certainly that Elves should be 'immortal' or of very long life, and Men of brief life. But it was probably only during the sojourn of Orom among the fathers of the Quendi that the Valar discovered precisely what was the mode of their lives with regard to the lapse of Time.] that made it possible for the Valar to bring the Eldar to dwell in Aman. In one Valian year the Eldar dwelling there grew and developed in much the same way as mortals did in one year upon Middle-earth. In recording the events in Aman, therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the Valian unit, though we must not forget that within any such 'year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements EPE-EX-12.5{which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years}. Nonetheless the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.
But the Eldar were not native to Aman, which had not been, by the Valar, designed for them. In Aman, before their coming, there had dwelt only the Valar and their lesser kindred the Maiar. But for their delight and use there were in Aman also a great multitude of creatures, without fear, of many kinds: animals or moving creatures, and plants that are steadfast. There, it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been on Earth, and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on Earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth.
But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.
For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality. On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, EPE-EX-12.6{ in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while} birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in lar upon lar under the wheeling Sun.
But beside all this Aman is called also the Blessed Realm, and in this was found its blessedness: in health and joy. For in Aman no creatures suffered any sickness or disorder of their natures; nor was there any decay or ageing more swift than the slow ageing of Arda itself. So that all things coming at last to fullness of form and virtue remained in that state, blissfully, ageing and wearying of their life and being no swifter than the Valar themselves. And this blessing also was granted to the Eldar.
On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fear. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fear, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fa as it were consumed the hra until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.
But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hrar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hrar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.>
40 Manw and Varda loved most the {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]}, the {High}[Fair] Elves, and holy and immortal were all their deeds and songs. ...
The second part of the essay might then be included in the scond age stuff.

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Old 11-06-2017, 03:21 PM   #14
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While I agree that if it is to be placed in the story, it fits well here, were we not planning to include it in Volume III as a standalone essay?

EPE-EX-12.5: I understand your reasoning for removing this,but since Men are mentioned at times in these early chapters, I think it is a permissible "flash-forward"if we could even call it that. It is simply a statement of fact about Men, and as this was written by Pengolodh,he would be familiar with Men,and expected his readers to be as well. I do not think we need to remove it.

EPE-EX-12.6: Why remove this? Since we have removed all notation of the chronology, we do not know how long the Elves remained in Aman, and so we do not know that 3000 years did not pass. Besides this fact, this is a general statement, not a statement of specific future events, and so I see no reason to remove it.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:01 PM   #15
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If the essay should be split and be placed here and in volume 2 or entirely volume 3 can be discussed. I would prefer to have the appropriate parts near to the narrative.

EPE-EX-12.5: I removed this because it seems to me to refer to the 12 x 12 mortal years = 144 Years of the Sun = 1 Valian Year. which we decided not include.

EPE-EX-12.6: What this says is that Elves grow from child to adult in 3000 years of the Sun. This is in no way compatible with our chronology. Exiles born in Middle-earth in the first years of the First Age would only be in an age to fight sometime around the 2nd millennium of the Second Age! Therefore I think this must be ruled out as a proposed changed that we cannot in-cooperate in our version.

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Old 11-08-2017, 05:27 PM   #16
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EPE-EX-12.5: I do not think it is explicit enough to warrant a deletion, but I suppose there is no real harm.

EPE-EX-12.6: Ah, I was not thinking. I agree.

On a side not, are you taking up the heading "Aman" as well for a subheading in the chapter?

Personally, I am against its inclusion here. It is told from the point of view of a Man discussing the nature of Aman. Thus, the Eldar are referenced in the third person, and terms such as "we must not forget that..." Overall, it is a philosophical musing of someone who has never been to Aman about what it is like in its nature. I am more inclined to keep it separate.

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Old 11-10-2017, 12:57 PM   #17
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About the heading: Yes, I would take it as a sub-heading in this chapter. For the second part in volume 2 I would use Aman and mortal Men as a full heading, under which I would include as well the parts of the Akallabeth telling of the desire of the Nmenoreans for eternal life, the message of the Valar and the reaction of the Numenoreans. It would be placed between Of the Rings of Power telling of the war in Eregion and the War in Eriador and Tal-Elmar which includes the part of the Akallabeth telling about the division of the Numenoreans and their starting to make permanent lordships in Middle-earth.

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Old 11-10-2017, 02:16 PM   #18
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I agree that that'd be a good place to put Aman and Mortal Men, since the Akallabeth is written by a Man and not an Elf. However, if this part is to be inserted into the Quenta Silmarillion, I think we must change one more thing:
Quote:
In recording the events in Aman, therefore, EPE-EX-12.45 {we may as did} the Eldar {themselves use}used the Valian unit, though {we must not forget that} within any such year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements EPE-EX-12.5 which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years. Nonetheless the Eldar aged at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.
Because the author of the QS is an Elf, we must remove those bits.

Also, this is a point I was unsure of, but at the end:
Quote:
Then an Elf would begin EPE-EX-12.7 (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade',
The part in the parentheses I am unsure about. If we suppose this to be written by Pengolodh at eh Mouths of Sirion and then in Tol Eressea before being brought back to Middle-earth by the Numenoreans or Glorifindel, then would the Elves have begun fading?
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:52 PM   #19
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EPE-EX-12.45: This is a possibility. But on the other hand it is clear that our text has been handled by other then the original author. So we could assume this to be a inclusion by some such. I would like to have here the input of others.

The same is true for your second point. So here I think that at the middle of the Second Age, when Pengolodh left Middle-earth the fading was already observable.

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Old 11-11-2017, 08:29 PM   #20
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I'm holding off on commenting on any of this until I can give my full attention to this chapter. However, I will say I'm somewhat disinclined to use 'Aman' here. It strikes me much more as commentary on the story than as something to be used in a narrative.

But I will look at this in detail when we turn our attention back to this chapter.
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:47 AM   #21
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That was what I expacted. My message was not to promot you to this, but to make clear that I think more opinions are needed.

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Old 12-03-2017, 08:34 PM   #22
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We had discussed the question of the word "Myar" and I have just found this in Words, Phrases, and Passages:

Quote:
AYA-N treat with awe/reverence. Cf. especially ainur "the Holy Ones" (plural of *ainu < adjective aina 'revered').
This ainur only appears in plural since after the Creation all those known were myar. Myar includes Valar and their lesser kin, but not those who either did not take part in the Great Theme, or else did not enter into E. So The Ainur is used only of the Spirits before Creation, or of those unnamed who are not concerned with it.
In this same essay the term "Maiar" is used later on, so it would seem that these terms might have been contemporary. However, this document is composed in several stages of composition, and the occurrence of the word "Maiar" is in the later stage than the occurrence of "Myar." In addition, further on we have:

Quote:
MAY- excellent, admirable. [Cf. mya/maia, name of the Kin of the Valar, but especially of those of lesser power than the 9 great rulers.
This alone would settle the debate that the two are interchangeable, but even after this the entry was edited to say
Quote:
Cf. Maiar
I think this proves it.

Sidenote: There is this sentence in the entry on "Calacirya"
Quote:
Many jewels were embedded in the rocks of its walls.
Do we want this in the chapter? or is it too minor a detail to include?

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Old 12-04-2017, 11:30 PM   #23
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Nice find!

I at least for an inclusion od that detail.

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Old 12-05-2017, 01:13 AM   #24
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How about:

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EPE-EX-13{In Valinor they first contrived .... were enriched.}<QS rewritten And in all crafts of hand they delighted also; .... and the halls of the {Gods}[Valar] in Valinor were enriched. EPE-EX-13.5 <Words, Phrases, and Passages Many jewels were [also] embedded in the rocks of {its}the wall [of the Calacirya].>>
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Many jewels were embedded in the rocks of its walls.

I have now a dude with this sentence. Possibly is because my understanding/interpretation of English.
Refers that the jewels were embedded by someone after the making of the Calacirya or refers that the jewels were embedded say, geologically, and can see after the making of the pass? I always thought that was the second option.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:05 AM   #26
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Gems are not mentioned until this paragraph, and it is said that they were first discovered by the Noldor by digging in the earth. If they were naturally embedded in the walls of the Calacirya, they would have discovered them immediately. Therefore they must be manually embedded.

As far as the English goes, the sentence itself does not specify. It could mean they were there, or that they were put there.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:49 AM   #27
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Ok, thats fine, thank you.
One thing I had not noticed before. In

EPE-EX-13{In Valinor they first contrived .... were enriched.}<QS rewritten And in all crafts of hand they delighted also; .... and the halls of the {Gods}[Valar] in Valinor were enriched.

would it be not better to include the passage of AAm year 1149 mixed with the account of LQ?
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:28 PM   #28
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Well, I am not that sure that the gems were not 'naturally' embeded in the walls. Since Gems were no longer invented by the Noldor, It is more then possible that Aule when building the Calacirya placed the Gems just below surface so that when the Noldor learned how to read the signs where to find Gems they diged a bit here and there and freed the Gems but let them be where they were.

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Old 12-06-2017, 03:03 PM   #29
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Well, I suppose that we must make differwnces between gems as raw and jewels as worked pieces.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:08 PM   #30
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To be honest, I think the passage as I inserted it leaves things ambiguous enough that both readings are possible
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:34 PM   #31
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Yes, true. I was not arguing for any diffrent editing, I just gave my oppinion about the matter.

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