Dragon-Fire - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorhilion · 02-27-2006, 09:10 PM

If it is true that dragon-fire can melt the One-Ring then why didn't one of the dragons try to? And if it isn't true than.....

AragornII · 02-27-2006, 09:55 PM

Welcome to the Downs, Gorhilion. Enjoy death!

To answer your question, if I remember correctly, the One Ring could not be destroyed by anything save the Fires of Orodruin. The other 19 Rings, 3 for elves, 7 for dwarves, and 9 for men, could be destroyed by dragonfire. I think only four of the dwarf Rings were, but none of the others. I also don't think there were many dragons around during the Third Age.

Gorhilion · 02-27-2006, 10:48 PM

Thanks.

Farael · 02-28-2006, 01:37 AM

We had a discussion about The One Ring a while back and this topic came up... I think it was me who brought it up. If I'm not mistaken, someone brought up a quote from the books which said that PERHAPS it could have been destroyed by one of the greatest dragons, but they were no longer around.

Edit: I Think it was somewhere around here
http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12437

Essex · 02-28-2006, 02:45 AM

Gandalf from the Shadow of the Past to Frodo.

Quote:

'Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

As we can see, NO dragon could have harmed, let alone consumed, the One Ring.

JennyHallu · 02-28-2006, 06:52 AM

what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired? It seems like Gandalf went in for idle speculation in the middle of a serious conversation.

Earendilyon · 02-28-2006, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired?

A number of Dwarf-Rings were consumed by dragonfire. That's how they knew

Essex · 02-28-2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired? It seems like Gandalf went in for idle speculation in the middle of a serious conversation.

he had been around in middle earth for good few thousand years before this, collecting information etc. So I'd give him the benefit of the doubt........

JennyHallu · 02-28-2006, 07:40 AM

Ring-lore was Saruman's cup of tea, though, wasn't it? And just because you've been around doesn't make it any less speculation.

But Earindilyon answered at least the first part of my question. Four of the seven dwarf rings were destroyed by dragons, and I forgot.

Gurthang · 02-28-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Ring-lore was Saruman's cup of tea, though, wasn't it? And just because you've been around doesn't make it any less speculation.

Yes, you are correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Gandalf was not also well versed in Ring-lore. Saruman put much of his thought into Ringmaking history and the actual making (i.e. crafting, materials, or 'spells' used), likely because he wanted to make a ring of his own. On the other hand, Gandalf would have been more interested in just the broad history, and so than any record of their destruction or attempted destruction. I agree that he probably knew what he was talking about.

JennyHallu · 02-28-2006, 07:55 AM

I tend to be pure scientist on things like this. Without experimentation, you have no truth. I agree that you are meant to accept Gandalf's word on the matter blindly, but my question is How did he know that Sauron's ring wouldn't melt in dragon fire? Obviously, since he didn't have it, he didn't set it in front of Ancalagon the Black and say "exhale, please" but he was still certain that it couldn't be destroyed that way. Why? Sauron's hand was on the dwarven rings too...

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-28-2006, 08:40 AM

In the absence of any precise data about the Rings of Power, and faced with the impossibility of conducting a physical experiment, I should rule out science on this question. Obviously Tolkien's concern was with the narrative situation created by the Rings of Power, and clearly his decision that the Ruling Ring could only be destroyed in Orodruin was made so that there would be no alternative for his characters but to take it there.

That being said, my guess would be that the One is harder to destroy than the Seven because more of Sauron's native power and will are embodied in it. The Seven and the Nine are merely trinkets to be used for the recruitment of new servants, but the Ruling Ring is for Sauron's hand alone, and its destruction, as we know, is a grave blow. Therefore, the dragons being loose cannon at the best of times, Sauron had a good reason to make his Ring impervious to their fire; and because he embodies more of his own spirit and will in it, the One is in any case likely to be harder to destroy. Far be it from me to speak for Tolkien, but that would seem to be the logical basis of Gandalf's speculation.

JennyHallu · 02-28-2006, 08:49 AM

Thank you, I'm satisfied now...

A further query however...Do you think that Dragon-fire could melt Narya?

Naria · 02-28-2006, 11:07 AM

Aaaagh

Melt me? NO not me anything but me!!

Sorry I couldn't help it....good question though

Farael · 02-28-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I tend to be pure scientist on things like this. Without experimentation, you have no truth.

Well, that's not quite accurate... you can find the truth by merely observation, think about Biology. You can take a bunch of monkeys into a zoo and run experiments on them, but if you want to know how monkeys live in the wild you can only go out there and just watch.

It could be the same thing with Gandalf and the dwarven rings... not only he's been around for quite a bit, but we could asume his 'sight' (mind's eye) goes far beyond what humans or elves can see... maybe he 'saw' it happen and thus he 'knew'... or maybe, and even more simply, the story has been passed down the generations and so he did know. Archeology is a science too if I'm not mistaken and they work with part history part circumstantial evidence. Sort of like a Werewolf game, without people getting lynched =P

With the One Ring is a bit more tricky... as there is only one that has evidently not been destroyed. Even more so, as far as we know no-one has even tried. How does Gandalf know? well, the 'mind's eye' thing comes quite handly... he was a Maiar and so he knew. Other than that, maybe it was because of the forging of the ring... since it was forged in the hottest place on Middle Earth, anything short than that would just not be hot enough.

My personal thought is that last one... as the ring was forged in Mt. Doom it could only be destroyed there.

Essex · 02-28-2006, 01:04 PM

Also, Gandalf was an emissary of the Valar.

Do you think they sent him off blind to defeat Sauron or do you reckon they gave him a bit of background information before?

you know, 'you have to destroy the Ring of Power - only way to do it is to unmake it in the fires of mount doom' etc.......

they did send him off after the Ring was made didn't they? I can't remember if gandalf arrived after Sauron's Ring was lost.......?

Raynor · 02-28-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

they did send him off after the Ring was made didn't they?

Sauron made the One Ring in the year 1600 of the Second Age, (which lasted for ~1841 years more); at about 1000 years into the Third Age, the Istari reach Middle-Earth (cf Tale of Years, ROtK).

Quote:

Do you think they sent him off blind to defeat Sauron or do you reckon they gave him a bit of background information before?

I don't think they had much detailed information. The istari were Sauron's peers (in nature and strength - or at least before they were embodied) so they knew each other anyway; moreover, their sending was "a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar" (only at about 2060 do the istari fear his return).

02-27-2006, 09:10 PM	#1
Gorhilion Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 11	Dragon-Fire If it is true that dragon-fire can melt the One-Ring then why didn't one of the dragons try to? And if it isn't true than..... __________________ Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

02-27-2006, 09:55 PM	#2
AragornII Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Concluding negotiations Posts: 105	Welcome to the Downs, Gorhilion. Enjoy death! To answer your question, if I remember correctly, the One Ring could not be destroyed by anything save the Fires of Orodruin. The other 19 Rings, 3 for elves, 7 for dwarves, and 9 for men, could be destroyed by dragonfire. I think only four of the dwarf Rings were, but none of the others. I also don't think there were many dragons around during the Third Age. __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king.

02-27-2006, 10:48 PM	#3
Gorhilion Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 11	Thanks. __________________ Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

02-28-2006, 01:37 AM	#4
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	We had a discussion about The One Ring a while back and this topic came up... I think it was me who brought it up. If I'm not mistaken, someone brought up a quote from the books which said that PERHAPS it could have been destroyed by one of the greatest dragons, but they were no longer around. Edit: I Think it was somewhere around here http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12437 __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. Last edited by Farael; 02-28-2006 at 01:52 AM.

02-28-2006, 06:52 AM	#6
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired? It seems like Gandalf went in for idle speculation in the middle of a serious conversation. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-28-2006, 07:40 AM	#9
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	Ring-lore was Saruman's cup of tea, though, wasn't it? And just because you've been around doesn't make it any less speculation. But Earindilyon answered at least the first part of my question. Four of the seven dwarf rings were destroyed by dragons, and I forgot. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-28-2006, 07:55 AM	#11
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	I tend to be pure scientist on things like this. Without experimentation, you have no truth. I agree that you are meant to accept Gandalf's word on the matter blindly, but my question is How did he know that Sauron's ring wouldn't melt in dragon fire? Obviously, since he didn't have it, he didn't set it in front of Ancalagon the Black and say "exhale, please" but he was still certain that it couldn't be destroyed that way. Why? Sauron's hand was on the dwarven rings too... __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-28-2006, 08:40 AM	#12
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	The Imperviousness of the One In the absence of any precise data about the Rings of Power, and faced with the impossibility of conducting a physical experiment, I should rule out science on this question. Obviously Tolkien's concern was with the narrative situation created by the Rings of Power, and clearly his decision that the Ruling Ring could only be destroyed in Orodruin was made so that there would be no alternative for his characters but to take it there. That being said, my guess would be that the One is harder to destroy than the Seven because more of Sauron's native power and will are embodied in it. The Seven and the Nine are merely trinkets to be used for the recruitment of new servants, but the Ruling Ring is for Sauron's hand alone, and its destruction, as we know, is a grave blow. Therefore, the dragons being loose cannon at the best of times, Sauron had a good reason to make his Ring impervious to their fire; and because he embodies more of his own spirit and will in it, the One is in any case likely to be harder to destroy. Far be it from me to speak for Tolkien, but that would seem to be the logical basis of Gandalf's speculation. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-28-2006, 08:49 AM	#13
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	Thank you, I'm satisfied now... A further query however...Do you think that Dragon-fire could melt Narya? __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

02-28-2006, 11:07 AM	#14
Naria Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 501	Aaaagh Melt me? NO not me anything but me!! Sorry I couldn't help it....good question though

02-28-2006, 01:04 PM	#16
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	Also, Gandalf was an emissary of the Valar. Do you think they sent him off blind to defeat Sauron or do you reckon they gave him a bit of background information before? you know, 'you have to destroy the Ring of Power - only way to do it is to unmake it in the fires of mount doom' etc....... they did send him off after the Ring was made didn't they? I can't remember if gandalf arrived after Sauron's Ring was lost.......?