The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Fun and Games > Middle-earth Mirth
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-06-2010, 09:47 AM   #1
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Silmaril WW General rules discussion

This is a thread to begin discussion for a sticky thread that will be posted on some of the universal and general rules for WW. Those who participate in this discussion ideally will be considered veteran players. I don't want to set a minimum to participate, however if you are fairly new please realize there are players who have played dozens of games and know the rules, both written and unwritten very well. I think this discussion is to collect these rules. We should bold our actual suggestions.

For example, everybody knows that you turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW. That should be included on the list.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 12:18 PM   #2
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Just some thoughts, as a starting point - I'd like to hear the others' thoughts on these:

Mods should know that unless they explicitly say otherwise, players can reasonably expect the usual rules remain true, such as (correct me if I'm wrong):
- Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
- No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
- PMs should not be quoted during the game (I broke this one not long ago).
- Normal cobblers are ordos in the final count.
- Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed (they aren't elsewhere on the 'downs, why would they be here?)
- Posting in game threads should stop at DL (cross-posts excepted).
- Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
- Mods should specify how the lynch will go in case of a tie (first to reach total, last to reach total, double-lynch, random, etc.)
- Unless otherwise specified by the mod, abilities of seer, hunter and ranger are: (to be discussed. Logical hunters? Rangers can/can't protect self? Let me know what you think.)
- Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
- Unless otherwise specified, votes should be on a separate line, bolded (and highlighted?) or they won't be counted.
- Mod should specify whether there are retractable votes.
- Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.

That's all I can think of for now.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 01:39 PM   #3
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
About secret roles:
- if secret roles exist the Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied too
- [B]if it is a secret role that the possessor does not know they have then the Mod should make that clear in the rules [/B[(for example they could say "There is a secret role, the person who has it doesn't know they have it until they encounter the necessary situation")Feel free to disagree with me on that one, but I think this will prevent future mods from suddenly adding roles half way through a game on a whim, and saying that it was just a 'secret role'.

About Lovers:
- It should be clearly explained in the rules exactly what type of Lover pairing is involved, or if they are secret Lovers than at least clearly explained to those who have the role. For example whether or not their fates are intertwined (one dies, so does the other) and whether or not they are just like PM buddies on the village's side, or if they are actually playing for their own side and only want to survive to the end together. I know there was Lover confussion in the past because this was not clearly explained to those who had the role.

All I have for now, but I'm sure I'll think of more...
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 01:48 PM   #4
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,820
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilwarin538 View Post
About Lovers:
- It should be clearly explained in the rules exactly what type of Lover pairing is involved, or if they are secret Lovers than at least clearly explained to those who have the role. For example whether or not their fates are intertwined (one dies, so does the other) and whether or not they are just like PM buddies on the village's side, or if they are actually playing for their own side and only want to survive to the end together. I know there was Lover confussion in the past because this was not clearly explained to those who had the role.
That's what I was going to bring up. Hate to have that happen again, wouldn't we.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 01:52 PM   #5
Brinniel
Reflection of Darkness
 
Brinniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 3,027
Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I think Rikae covered a pretty good chunk of the rules. Here's a few more I thought of:

-Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game. (I would consider even pulling that up to a year)

-After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules. (I do think there should be a penalty for players who sign up and don't/barely participate more than two or three times. I don't think it's been a problem recently, but I'm still remembering the likes of xyzzy.)

-Extending the meta-rule, no player should suspect or make accusations at another player due to meta-reasoning.

-(?) The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (I don't know...maybe that should be a rule the mod makes. But it is annoying for a mod when they don't receive a kill until the final moments of the Night.)

-Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.


That's all I can think of for the time being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morm from the other thread
If people are signing up and continue to hold or pass on their turn this creates problems. Glirdan it seems that this is happening currently but rest assured you are not targeted as I've seen it before. The problems arise because those who are behind them are not planning on modding for a few weeks at the soonest and suddenly their turn is thrust upon them. Would something like if you are unable to make your turn you are off the list be reasonable?
Since people do get busy with RL and it's hard to estimate how much time it'll take to go through the mod list, I think there should be some slight leniency. Perhaps future mods are allowed to pass off their turn only once before being taken off the list and if the next mod is a no-show, they are automatically removed from the list.

Some people have sometimes requested to mod on a particular month, which I think should be okay since that person usually very busy and may not be able to mod at all otherwise. But maybe add some limits to that, like they cannot reserve a month any sooner than 3 months from the current month. Only those who have a very tight schedule can reserve. And if they do not show or pass their turn on the month they reserved, that person is automatically taken off the list.

Just throwing out some ideas here. Opinions?
__________________
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Brinniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 02:10 PM   #6
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I'm noticing some fairly specific guidelines or rules being mentioned for specific roles. I would advise against this. The reason is each moderator has the liberty to define the roles as she/he sees fit. I think a rule such as:

Moderators must clearly define role, unless that is part of the game, in the admin thread and those roles will be followed. Specificity is a good thing here.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 02:19 PM   #7
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
That's what I was going to bring up. Hate to have that happen again, wouldn't we.
Indeed.

Quote:
The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (I don't know...maybe that should be a rule the mod makes. But it is annoying for a mod when they don't receive a kill until the final moments of the Night.)
WilwaMod says yes definitely it's annoying, but WilwaWolf says that's not fair, since villagers get a full 24 hours to choose a lynch, wolves should also get a full 24 hours. I think that's more a mod-to-mod thing.

Also: dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 03:01 PM   #8
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Maybe two sets of rules would work best. 1) a list of conventions on "how we usually play here", and 2) a kind of guideline for mods on what rules etc. they have to cover in their admin/game threads.

- Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible (basic roles can be described in detail very briefly - for special roles it's the more the better, I think)
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

- The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)


Some random comments:

Personally, I think bolding votes is enough. I find highlighting a bit annoying, to be honest, but maybe that's just me.

I think votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.

About meta reasoning: It's sometimes really hard to avoid it. If, for example, a player has not posted one day and then there's a missed kill the next night, how do you not suspect him/her? Just being silent about it or making up other reasons for suspicion doesn't make much sense. I think the rule should be to keep meta reasons to the absolute minimum.

Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?

Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules. (this should be obvious...)

The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within reasonable time of the deadline (30m?). If the narration takes a while (as it usually does...), the mod should either edit the deadline post or make another post before the narration that reveals the role.

The mod has to pm the roles to all his players, including ordos. It's a bit tedious to do so, I admit, but "if you didn't receive a pm, you're an ordo" makes me feel even more like an expendable extra than the ordo role does by itself. Motivated ordos are more fun.
This one's just a suggestion.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 03:17 PM   #9
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Two more:

Maybe this werewolf rules thread should be merged with Saucepan's werewolf sticky. Having two werewolf-related sticky threads on top might make the mirth forum too ww-centric.

While there have been many great non-Tolkien-related games, I'm a bit sad that this has become the norm almost. This is a Tolkien-forum where werewolf is played, after all, and not a werewolf-forum that has some Tolkien discussions. How do people think about a rule to encourage Tolkien-themed games in the future, such as "if you're modding your first game, it has to have a Tolkien-related theme"?

I hope I don't look too conservative now.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 03:54 PM   #10
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,820
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure View Post
Two more:

Maybe this werewolf rules thread should be merged with Saucepan's werewolf sticky. Having two werewolf-related sticky threads on top might make the mirth forum too ww-centric.

While there have been many great non-Tolkien-related games, I'm a bit sad that this has become the norm almost. This is a Tolkien-forum where werewolf is played, after all, and not a werewolf-forum that has some Tolkien discussions. How do people think about a rule to encourage Tolkien-themed games in the future, such as "if you're modding your first game, it has to have a Tolkien-related theme"?
Both good points.

On the second, by "Tolkien-themed" are we meaning that the setting must be in Tolkien's Arda, or that it merely should relate to Tolkien in some fashion, however tenuously?
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 03:59 PM   #11
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure View Post
Two more:

Maybe this werewolf rules thread should be merged with Saucepan's werewolf sticky. Having two werewolf-related sticky threads on top might make the mirth forum too ww-centric.

While there have been many great non-Tolkien-related games, I'm a bit sad that this has become the norm almost. This is a Tolkien-forum where werewolf is played, after all, and not a werewolf-forum that has some Tolkien discussions. How do people think about a rule to encourage Tolkien-themed games in the future, such as "if you're modding your first game, it has to have a Tolkien-related theme"?

I hope I don't look too conservative now.
Thank you Mac, I was planning on merging with SpM's thread and having his post be the second I guess.

As far as the Tolkien theme I'm glad you brought that up. I think we should stay a bit truer than we have to that. I think we do a bit of injustice when we stray too far from it. That is a general rule of the forum that has been VERY lax here and I know some admins have frowned upon greatly in the past so I know it would help if we just keep it closer to the original core. There are of course variants that can and have been done that are still very Tolkien related.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:01 PM   #12
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilwarin538 View Post
- It should be clearly explained in the rules exactly what type of Lover pairing is involved, or if they are secret Lovers than at least clearly explained to those who have the role. .
Does this rule out things like cobbler-lovers with ordo partners? That would be a shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinniel
Some people have sometimes requested to mod on a particular month, which I think should be okay since that person usually very busy and may not be able to mod at all otherwise. But maybe add some limits to that, like they cannot reserve a month any sooner than 3 months from the current month. Only those who have a very tight schedule can reserve. And if they do not show or pass their turn on the month they reserved, that person is automatically taken off the list.
I think a rule like this is potentially problematic. I'd rather not see the main WW thread degenerate into an argument over who is busy enough to reserve a month, for instance. Let's not make it overly complex, but say that:
Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.

Similarly, I'd say players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months (or a year?)
(And maybe we should also have a similar suspension of players for repeated cheating or abusive language during games?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morm
I'm noticing some fairly specific guidelines or rules being mentioned for specific roles. I would advise against this.
For me at least, that's not what I was suggesting. I meant that there should be default descriptions for the really basic roles for times when a mod doesn't explain them fully enough. Mods can still define these rules differently if they wish, but they should do so explicitly in the admin thread. I've seen games where a mod didn't completely explain what a basic role did, and a player assumed something different than the mod had in mind. I'd like the players to have the peace of mind of knowing that "unless the mod says otherwise, role x works this way".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac
I think the rule should be to keep meta reasons to the absolute minimum.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac
Personally, I think bolding votes is enough. I find highlighting a bit annoying, to be honest, but maybe that's just me.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac
The mod has to pm the roles to all his players, including ordos.
I don't know. It's a nice thing for a mod to do, I agree, but should it be a requirement?

And regarding having Tolkien-related games:
I really think they all ought to be. It's possible to stretch that requirement quite a bit, and back in the days when it was upheld, I saw quite a few wonderful, imaginative game concepts that took it in unexpected directions. As far as I know, it still is the rule, it's just being ignored, and I never was really very happy about that - nothing against the mods who have done other sorts of games; some have been quite good, and the rule was essentially dropped, after all, but I would like to see it reinstituted.
So I'll propose:
All games should be in some way Tolkien-related.

EDIT: Cross posted with Morm and Inzil.(Yes, I know I don't have to do this here, but it makes things nice and clear.)
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:22 PM   #13
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
I thought of one more:
Unless otherwise noted by the mod, players cannot change sides and should play for the side assigned to them throughout the game.

I've seen suggestions that werebears who could no longer win alone "join" the village, and cursed villagers play cobbler from the start; if ordos are not allowed to dub themselves cobblers or form impromptu wolf packs, this sort of thing should be out, too (unless the mod explicitly allows a role to choose sides). You can't police motivations, but at least you won't have players announcing "I decided to change sides!"
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:28 PM   #14
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Does this rule out things like cobbler-lovers with ordo partners? That would be a shame.
No. I meant more regarding whether they are just 2 people who are allowed to chat, or if they are the traditional Lovers who are on their own side and die together. There was a game (I forget who the Mod was) where everyone was paired up and it was called 'Lovers', so Inzil (a wolf) and I (an ordo) told each other our roles and were under the assumption we had to survive to the end together and that that was our goal above which of our teams won, as long as both of us were alive; when that actually wasn't the case at all, it was just a PM Pal type thing. The game had to be restarted. So avoiding that confusion in the future would be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac
The mod has to pm the roles to all his players, including ordos.
I think that's a good idea. Everyone deserves a PM, no matter how tedious it might be, and it just makes it clearer that way.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:33 PM   #15
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,820
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
I thought of one more:
Unless otherwise noted by the mod, players cannot change sides and should play for the side assigned to them throughout the game.

I've seen suggestions that werebears who could no longer win alone "join" the village, and cursed villagers play cobbler from the start; if ordos are not allowed to dub themselves cobblers or form impromptu wolf packs, this sort of thing should be out, too (unless the mod explicitly allows a role to choose sides). You can't police motivations, but at least you won't have players announcing "I decided to change sides!"
The bit about the Cursed villager could easily be avoided just by not telling the Cursed of their role until the game situation demands it.
That goes back to what Wilwa said about the Secret roles in general. Perhaps players having those roles should always be kept in the dark about it until the last minute, while all players should know that the roles themselves might exist, even if their nature isn't fully explained at the start.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:35 PM   #16
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Silmaril

Oh, and about the Tolkien relatedness. I have modded a few games completely non-Tolkien related, that I really enjoyed doing, and I've played in many games like that as well that I thought were fantastic. But this is a Tolkien forum, and more Tolkien related games would probably be a good idea. I do know of some people who are currently planning a non-Tolkien game, and I would hate to tell them they have to start their plans over completely, that seems unfair to me since people have been able to do practically any theme they want up to this point. But I think strongly encouraging Tolkien games would be a good idea, and maybe anyone who is starting their plans can aim for a Tolkien theme for the future.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 04:57 PM   #17
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
We could just say the Tolkien rule comes into effect after those on the list have gone - or did you mean people who aren't on the list, but are planning already? Perhaps we should extend the list to include those people, but let them be the last to do non-Tolkien related games?

Or those mods could just work a Tolkien-element into the game - we could be lenient about how integral to the theme it needed to be. I don't know what everyone else thinks, but my opinion was that the games didn't actually have to take place in Tolkien's Arda, but just have some connection to Tolkien. I designed the first game I modded in this way (it was set in California in 2020 or something, but the theme was a remake of the LoTR films).
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 05:55 PM   #18
Eönwë
Flame Imperishable
 
Eönwë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,993
Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I'm not a veteran but...

  1. I think it might be easier if when a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it, which might make organising the list easier.

  2. Quote:
    Originally Posted by wilwarin538 View Post
    But I think strongly encouraging Tolkien games would be a good idea, and maybe anyone who is starting their plans can aim for a Tolkien theme for the future.
    It might be interesting if the Tolkien theme will be more encouraged in experimental games, with it being more lenient on traditional games, as they already have werewolves and rangers and such which are already Tolkien-related (and so can have a bit more lenience with theme), while more more experimental games are often so different anyway, giving them a Tolkien theme might be a good idea.
    Also, on this note, I think that because this is a Tolkien forum, it might be a good idea that any new role should be introduced in a Tolkien setting/theme before being allowed to be used in a less Tolkien-themed game, just so it has a some sort of Tolkien connection.

  3. It might be useful to have an ongoing thread where any new role invented can be added and explained by the mod whenever a game is completed, which will make it easier for people who haven't played with such a role before if it is used again by another mod. Of course the mod should always specify if there will be any changes made to any of the roles in their game.
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
Eönwë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 06:08 PM   #19
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Would somebody be so kind as to compile all the suggestions to this point in a nice list so we can better see them and possibly condense them? I'm in an online class so I'm not really available.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 06:22 PM   #20
Isabellkya
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Isabellkya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Amongst trees.
Posts: 919
Isabellkya is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
How about a clarification on meta?
Are we talking similar to the example, missed kill and x player was not around.

Or meta in terms of 'this person is usually like this when innocent and like such when evil.'
__________________
But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.
Isabellkya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 07:48 PM   #21
Brinniel
Reflection of Darkness
 
Brinniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 3,027
Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Brinniel is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
When I mentioned meta-reasoning, I was thinking along the lines of a player suspecting another player because he/she believes the mod would've chosen that player to be a wolf. It's happened before...and it irritated a lot of people too.
__________________
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Brinniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 08:03 PM   #22
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:


1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.

Last edited by Rikae; 07-07-2010 at 06:40 AM.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 09:20 PM   #23
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil View Post
I'm noticing some fairly specific guidelines or rules being mentioned for specific roles. I would advise against this. The reason is each moderator has the liberty to define the roles as she/he sees fit. I think a rule such as:

Moderators must clearly define role, unless that is part of the game, in the admin thread and those roles will be followed. Specificity is a good thing here.
My understanding of the purpose of this thread is that the role descriptions we give here don't have to be followed– rather, we're attempting to define the standard roles, mainly for the benefit of newcomers. I think that will need to be emphasised in the final version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
Either way, I'd prefer to see this as a recommendation only, rather than a "hard" rule, or else make a token connection acceptable. *cough* Starship Lothlorien *cough*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Default Role Descriptions (?):
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer (does? does not?) get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.
Agreed on 1.) and 2.) As for 4.), it's normal for the Seer to get a Night 1 dream.

The Hunter's role is a bit more problematic, as it never really has been standardised. Perhaps we should define Logical and non-Logical Hunters and leave it at that? I recall being quite confused on that issue as a n00b.

Shouldn't we also mention Cursed and Werebear? They're non-standard, true, but newbies often don't know what they are at all.

Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 10:55 PM   #24
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
Why don't we handle the Tolkien-relation like we're going to handle the experimentalism? Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen
Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.
Interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it would fit in with the idea behind the sticky. Then again, I don't see any other feasible way to do it either. Maybe a third post on the thread could contain it?
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 10:58 PM   #25
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
morm, how long do you plan to keep the discussion going until you want a "final draft"? So far only a few people gave input, most of who were playing in the last game. A lot of experienced active players don't seem to have noticed the thread yet.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 12:53 AM   #26
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,328
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I have only managed to get a sort of a grip on what's cookin' here and it will take like two weeks for me to get really involved as cruising through the US takes the energy and time from me right now.

But I do like the idea of making something like the general-rules of BD werewolf, the deviations of which the mods should clearly announce - and be cognizant of themselves.

I would also be happy to join "the committee" ironing them out as I think I have quite a lot of experience on the matter as both a player and a mod. I could actually volunteer to make a draft, but that would be in two weeks' time as we'll be home only on July 21st.


On the discussion concerning the limits for modding...

I came to BD werewolf via the junior-games we had at that time. I'm not sure any separation of that kind should be re-introduced (like in RPG's as someone noted). Nevertheless while I think everyone should be able to play, I also think that the role of the mod requires some basic understanding of and commitment to the game - the latter which also some veterans have occasionally lacked.

So a five played games -requirement? That would sound reasonable. Other requirements surely are too complicated and tricky to come up with in any "objective" way. Although a person who has played five games but has disappeared in every game, or something like that ie. showing a total lack of interest and / or consideration for other players, could be refused to mod until shown some more solid understranding & commitment. But who would draw the line and where? Tricky.
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 03:12 AM   #27
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Quote:
Other requirements surely are too complicated and tricky to come up with in any "objective" way. Although a person who has played five games but has disappeared in every game, or something like that ie. showing a total lack of interest and / or consideration for other players, could be refused to mod until shown some more solid understranding & commitment. But who would draw the line and where? Tricky.
Not if you just all agree to hand over all authority to me.

At the start of each game the mod can submit his or her rules to me and I judge whether or not they are satisfactory. "You need to clear this up" and "This won't work" and "This is silly, so no"... Long story short I send back an edited version of their rules and only then can the game commence.

And as far as player behavior, I will read games as they are played and on my official "Phantom's Werewolf Judging Thread" I will declare certain behaviors that I witness as being good examples or bad examples. For instance, I could list at the end of each day which members had an amount of participation that was less than desirable. Also, I could point out any behavior that was annoying, and chide noobs for various noob mistakes (public ridicule can be a very effective teaching tool, or at the least can prove highly entertaining to others). In addition, I will hand out yellow cards and red cards via PM. Just like in soccer, a red card would kick a player out of that game and keep him from participating in the following game, where as a yellow card would just be a strong warning.

Example- Lommy comes under suspicion and lashes out at her attackers with an insulting profanity-laced post (you know how she is sometimes). So I send a PM reading "YELLOW CARD- without altering the meaning edit post number XX so that it is appropriate by the end of the day or you will receive a red card and be modfired and banned from the next game as well."

My role on the Downs would be differentiated clearly from that of current game mods by referring to them as "Mod" or "ModGod" and me as "Supreme ModGod", "Eternal Werewolf Ruler ModGod", or "Grand Emperor of Wolvery" (or some other simple little title befitting my humble role).

I am 100% certain that the masses will not adopt this wonderful plan of mine, and I am just as certain that it would function beautifully if given the chance.

You think I'm attempting to goad you into handing me the power just to prove me wrong? Ridiculous. But of course if you don't hand me the power you will be proving Phantom right. Again.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 04:03 AM   #28
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,304
Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Are you Para, phantom? This was your plan from the very beginning, no doubt?

But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it.

For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway.

Banning members from games seems way too over-the top. You don't get banned from the forum for 6 months if you don't post in the Books thread, so like Rikae asked about inappropriate language...why here? And who's going to police that? The Admins won't, and when morm gets busy I doubt that's something he wants to pay attention too (and I'm not letting phantom have that kind of power! ). Yes, we may all get annoyed if someone keeps signing up and then keeps getting mod-fired for not participating, but that's something the Mods have to watch. We don't need any universal banning rules.

I'm running short on time, gotta get to work for another 11 hour day *sigh*. But for organization purposes, maybe we can break this down to...

For all WW-participants: (this will include no inappropriate language, insulting, rules regarding meta-gaming...etc)

For Game Mods: I think having a type of format like the RPG forum would be helpful.

-Something like, ALL 1st posts of the admin threads must include...theme, DL rules, roles (and full explanation of them), list of players, voting rules. Anything else?

For the mod-list:

--------

Getting into banning players for reasons beyond the obvious (like actually breaking forum rules) is a bridge too far.
__________________
Normalizing "changing your opinion, when presented with new information" one post at a time.
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 04:46 AM   #29
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it.

For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway.
Yes, I think it's better to err on the side of having too few rules than too many. I believe what we should be aiming for is more in the nature of a set of guidelines and role-descriptions rather than laws.

The exception for me would be the points about mods needing to be clear from the start about how their particular games work, and not revealing living players' roles for no good reason (or otherwise giving one team an unfair advantage).
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 05:30 AM   #30
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,884
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
I suppose this isn't really any of my business since I don't play werewolf anymore but I do think if you have got to the point of needing a rule book it really has got out of hand.

It started out as a fun thing and now you need lists of rules and committees? What next a signed contract before playing?

I know from experience that you can think you have all bases covered and things will happen that will necessitate invoking the divine right of moderators. I am sure I did things that would have contravened many of the proposed rules but I tried to do nothing that altered the mechanics of the game even if some things altered the dynamics... However my greatest problem arose because either half my players didn't read the rules or for some reason decided that they didn't apply to them. So I don't think a great list of regulations helps. Noone reads them.

I modded game 5 and hadn't played all the previous ones.... however I realise that there are a large number of werewolf players who don't otherwise participate on the board and that is a different dynamic to the original games where Downers played ww as a sideline....
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 05:31 AM   #31
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Silmaril

Oh, here's a thing I didn't notice before:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Unless otherwise noted by the mod, players cannot change sides and should play for the side assigned to them throughout the game.

I've seen suggestions that werebears who could no longer win alone "join" the village, and cursed villagers play cobbler from the start; if ordos are not allowed to dub themselves cobblers or form impromptu wolf packs, this sort of thing should be out, too (unless the mod explicitly allows a role to choose sides). You can't police motivations, but at least you won't have players announcing "I decided to change sides!"
No, I don't think we need a rule about how people should play. That's up to them, isn't it?

Werebears, for instance, can help either side, or neither, as they please, and I think we should leave it at that. They can't, however, actually join the village, or the pack– that is, win when they win.

As for the rare cases where a player is aware of being the Cursed from the start, I again think it's much better to leave it up to him or her how to act– in fact, that's the only reason for having such a role. (It's an interesting dilemma: whether to play one's current alignment, or bet on the chance of becoming a wolf eventually.)

With all that, it's still true that players can't change sides, in the sense that they cannot choose their own conditions for victory. If you're a bear, you can only win as a bear, not as a villager. That's what needs to be made clear.

EDIT:X'd with Mith.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 05:36 AM   #32
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
I suppose this isn't really any of my business since I don't play werewolf anymore but I do think if you have got to the point of needing a rule book it really has got out of hand.

It started out as a fun thing and now you need lists of rules and committees? What next a signed contract before playing?
Well, my idea, as I keep saying, is for this to be a set of guidelines and role-definitions, mainly to help new players out and avoid confusion.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 06:13 AM   #33
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boro -
I think you misunderstood what I meant. First of all, profanity etc. is not allowed on the 'downs in general, and WW players shouldn't get a free pass. That's what I was saying; somehow you seem to have read the opposite into it. I wasn't, however, saying players should actually be banned from the 'downs or from the forum for not playing games they sign up for - but if a player repeatedly signs up and doesn't play, why should the next mod have to sign them up on their request, knowing they'll most likely be a no-show? It hasn't been a problem lately, but a while back there were quite a few players doing this, and it disrupts the game mechanics needlessly. I'm not talking about people who are busy and have to drop out or announce they'll be absent for a few days, but people who simply don't show up, with no explanation;, repeatedly. Remember xyzzy?

Mith -
I hope these rules are going to be common sense for all the veteran players; the point is to ensure that new players coming in, and especially new players wishing to mod, know what is the "norm" around here and what other players expect the rules to be. Most of them are either simple game mechanics ("don't PM people you're not allowed to PM") or default definitions of terms that the mods can change, as long as they do so explicitly in the admin thread.
I had an active role in all this, and I'm not doing it to change Barrowdowns werewolf, but to protect it. After seeing days spent trying to convince a player that PMing other players randomly was not allowed, seeing a mod invoke new rules he had never mentioned to the village and PM the roles of gifteds to wolves for no reason, and another player persist in PMing non-packmates with questions, I think we need a way to be sure players and mods are starting on the same page. We've had an influx of new players who are coming to the 'downs (as far as I know) just to play Werewolf, and who come in with a background in similar, but different, games and different assumptions about how the game works. It's not fair to the older players or to these newbies to fill the game threads with debates over how Werewolf should be played. Usually it's been possible to teach new players the ropes over the course of their first couple games, but when there are too many at once, when newbies want to mod, or when newbies don't seem willing to learn how the game is played here, it becomes a problem.

Nerwen -
Ok, fair enough. I'll take it out. I did mean, though, that a player can't change their winning conditions - I wanted to prevent a situation like in a previous game where there was a lot of confusion over how the Werebear role worked. I guess, though, that such requirements for winning should be in the admin thread and referring to it should be sufficient. Still, part of the idea here is to state the obvious so we don't need to explain it again and again (like the PMing and deadline rules).
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.

Last edited by Rikae; 07-07-2010 at 06:17 AM.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 06:23 AM   #34
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Another thing -
Boro, I don't think there is a suggested rule about reading the Admin thread at this point anyway, unless I missed it. Or do you mean the rule about reading the general rules? Yes, you can't enforce such a thing, but at least if someone is breaking one, such as a mod who doesn't turn up when they should or a player who PMs people they shouldn't, you can refer them to the rules and move on.. (Also, a player who is confused about something that wasn't satisfactorily clarified by the mod will have a place to go for answers.)
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 06:37 AM   #35
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
Rikae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,521
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure View Post
Why don't we handle the Tolkien-relation like we're going to handle the experimentalism? Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
I'm not sure I like this system for experimental/traditional games already. It sets up a situation where most people want to mod one type of game, and modding the other becomes a sort of drudgery that someone has to do (I don't understand why so many people seem to want to play traditional games while few seem to want to mod them, but that's how it tends to go).
I would hate to see modding Tolkien-related games become a similar sort of drudgery. I'd say it's better to either always have the same requirement (at least a token Tolkien connection?) or none at all (game mechanics are up to the mod). Really, I'd say "anything goes" with regard to the themes as well, except that this is a Tolkien forum and that was, if I recall correctly, one of the original conditions. Did the BW ever even approve dropping this requirement?
At any rate, there seem to be opinions on both sides, so I'll put in all three possibilities and wait for some agreement to be reached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
In addition, I will hand out yellow cards and red cards via PM. Just like in soccer, a red card would kick a player out of that game and keep him from participating in the following game, where as a yellow card would just be a strong warning.

I like this. One small change, though: I'll be the Supreme ModGod.
__________________
The skies of this world were always meant to have dragons. When they are not there, humans miss them.
Rikae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 07:42 AM   #36
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,135
Morsul the Dark has been trapped in the Barrow!
While I like the idea of making offenders miss the next game etc...

I think if possible the offender should be reported under "Poor Sportsmanship"(Or something to that effect. And the final decision belong to a forum Mod. It's too much power to belong to any one of us.

Also if a Mod Has to be absent Please spell out how the game will continue: For example
"I might be gone day 3 So and So will be substitute mod." It's very confusing and frustrating to out of the blue have someone take over the game.


That's pretty much all I have at the moment... Oh, As for 6 month waiting period for ReModding. I think We should base that on demand to mod.
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 07:49 AM   #37
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,135
Morsul the Dark has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:


1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.
I'm wondering if everyone agrees with this list if it'd be possible to edit it into the first post of the thread... just so we don't repeat rules suggestions and such... I think I might have. It's a strong list by the way good work guys!
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 08:35 AM   #38
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I don't think banning people from playing for a stretch of time will work. Who would enforce it anyway? A mod can always refuse to let a player with a recent history of offenses join. That should be enough.

I can understand how this batch of rules can be a bit overwhelming, but remember that most of it is really obvious stuff. In fact, it makes life easier for mods and players, since mods don't have to go through all those rules in their admin threads over and over again. We've been gathering rules so far and probably should now head into the phase of simplifying, generalizing, combining rules and dropping undesired ones.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 08:41 AM   #39
Feanor of the Peredhil
La Belle Dame sans Merci
 
Feanor of the Peredhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: perpetual uncertainty
Posts: 5,956
Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via MSN to Feanor of the Peredhil
I'm here- and reading

As a veteran player as far back as the first BD WW game, I'd like to think I'm important.

Oh who am I kidding... we all know I am.

To put it frankly, the more hoops one has to jump through, the less fun it's going to be for everyone.

I think that rather than compiling a list of rules, we should write up a glossary of terms and traditions. "Ordo: aligned in the final count with the villagers; no special powers." "Wolf: aligned in the final count with the wolves; interacts with the wolves during the Night phase." Not rules, but a general paradigm. The things, basically, that we take for granted, but that new players might not. Not rules of how it should be in a game, but descriptions of how it usually has been.

Therein still lies a risk of somebody saying something in a game (I have most definitely 'played stupid' to gauge reactions) and having an instant, "Fea, please look at page 4 of X Thread where Barrowdowner says "_"." I feel that a great deal of the dynamism and spontaneity of games will be lost if we try too hard to limit understanding of how they *should* work.

However I believe that it is significant to have a couple major standbys.

But I think they can be summarized.

1) Special roles and special rules do not need to be explained (otherwise there goes the secret) but they *should* be announced in a reasonable way. Like, "By the way, there's a secret role." As long as it's understood by the village that there are one or more variables to contend with, it's okay to have unannounced variables.

When performing experiments, scientists require dependent and independent variables because if you have nothing concrete to compare your findings to, then there's no objective way to look at your findings.

Same goes for werewolf: the nature of the roles provides us with dependent variables and we can judge behaviors and evidence accordingly. As long as we know how many bad guys there are, for example, (or as long as we know that we don't know), we are able to measure and surmise.

If we're just told to play and that we'll find out later?

I once modded a game that became a wee bit legendary and I still haven't quite lived that reputation down. It was announced before the game started that I wasn't going to reveal roles upon deaths and that I'd let the village know when the game ended, and that until that point they should do their level best to kill the bad guys.

As the mod, the intention was always to have a last person standing. I'd intended to show that you can find suspicious behavior anywhere, and you can 'prove' without doubt that somebody is evil whether or not they are. I was basically just subverting assumptions that you can objectively do anything. It was a distinctly cerebral game, very philosophical in its approach and its playing out. There were only two wolves because teams didn't matter so much. But when both wolves died within two days? I kept the game going. But there were never any illusions that I wasn't messing with everybody. It was an invitational game and there was full disclosure with each golden ticket that I was tampering with assumptions. I didn't say how, but it was announced that the game was abnormal and that it existed to amuse me.

Basically, I gave the village warning that I knew more than they did about what was going to happen, and I stuck with the one concrete fact that the winner was going to be the last person alive regardless of their role.

But the point was that I announced that something was going to be weird.

I don't think mods should have to give full disclosure on what they plan to surprise the players with, but I do believe they should disclose that a surprise exists.

2) Assume your players have never played before, and describe your roles and rules accordingly.

3) The reason we have mods is to make split second decisions when the unexpected arises. As long as the mod is clearly making a valiant effort toward a fun and fair game, we should fully accept their decision making.

4) Co-mods are okay, as are substitutes, as long as privileged information remains privileged. For instance, if FeaMod can't make deadline, and I call up NiennaOrdo to post that Mira is dead and she was a wolf, I'm not filling in Ni with any information she wouldn't immediately have upon reading that same post I'd write. "Let the village know that-" is one thing. But "Hey NiennaOrdo (who's still alive), would you let SeerLari know that MiraWolf is a wolf, and then RangerRikae needs to choose her protection!"

That? Not so okay. Basically it should probably be assumed that in a pinch, passing on PUBLIC information is okay, whereas any living players should not be made aware of secret information regardless of what the mod is up to. (unless, as mentioned in rule 1, it's already a given that the mod might do this).

--

Basically my suggestions boil down to:

1) you must disclose that you have something to disclose, even if you don't disclose the nature of the disclosure

2) be really detailed in your explanations of rules and roles even if you think everybody already knows what you're talking about

3) don't tell living players anything they're not allowed to know

4) our list of 'rules' shouldn't be rules, but should be assumed definitions that can be ignored at will as long as the mod follows rules 1 and 2.
__________________
peace
Feanor of the Peredhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2010, 09:10 AM   #40
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,946
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I took the liberty to edit the rules collected by Rikae.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Still need a definition of "meta")
13. Players cannot choose their own alignment or conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role and the players have to abide.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.

Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Rules on traditional/experimental and Tolkien-related/non-Tolkien related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.
6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (editing it before the start of the game is possible)
- List of players
- List of roles including each's number. Each role should be defined as detailed as possible.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules for no-shows or inappropriate behavior
7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos



Changes (I hope I'm not going overboard with this):

General Rules
"11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?"
This should be left to the individual mod.

"12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months."
This one seems to be particularly controversial. We indeed should rather err on the side of too few rules, and this should be taken care of by the mods. No mod is forced to let everybody join who wants to join anyway.

Votes and Deadlines
"4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)"
This should be left to the mod to decide. It is also already covered in the Guidelines for Mods.

Guidelines for Mods
"4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related."
This has to be thought over thoroughly first, I guess. It does seem like players prefer mostly traditional and Tolkien-related games, but mods do the opposite. Middle ground to be found.

Part of 6. "If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied."
I understand why lovers caught some extra attention, but it's really just a special case of the general rule to explain one's roles in detail. Secret roles are already mentioned right after this.

Part of 7. "(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)"
Not really necessary, I think.

Part of 8. "If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins."
Already mentioned.

Regarding 10: 30 minutes is rather arbitrary, I admit, but nobody brought up criticism to this one in particular.

Regarding 11: This one could possibly be dropped. Opinions?

I also took out the role descriptions / glossary, since this should be an extra post in the sticky thread. Do you want to start writing it up, Nerwen?


Pretty much all of the remaining rules have been applied explicitly or implicitly before, so I think the list is helpful to newbies and makes a mod's job easier.

-crossed with Fea

Last edited by Macalaure; 07-07-2010 at 09:16 AM.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:50 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.