The Dead and The Undead

[Boromir88]

As I mentioned in other topics I've been doing another reading of the books and recently finished Lord of the Rings. Next on my Tolkien stack is The Silmarillion (which actually might prompt some more thoughts on what this thread is about).

And this thread is generally about death, as in Men's fear of their own mortality in the Tolkienverse. Also about the Dead (Men of Dunharrow, the Dead Marshes) and the Undead (The Ringwraiths).

What prompted this originally is just trying to do a compare/contrast to the Dead Men of Dunharrow, the Ringwraiths, and how do the Barrow-wights fit into this whole dead and the undead. I think the Men of Dunharrow are exactly what they're called, they are indeed dead. Spirits, bound to not be at rest because of their broken oath. Which is I think interesting considering the theme of Men's fear of death. Even if their blades no longer have any "bite" (Gimli makes a comment about this), few of the living could endure them, because it's like being confronted by their own mortality, literally staring into the face of their "Death."

But how do the "spirits" (for lack of a better identification) in the Dead Marshes fit in here? The Men of Dunharrow are bound by an oath. What about the "dead faces" Gollum describes:

"Yes, yes," said Gollum. "All dead, all rotten. Elves and Men and Orcs. The Dead Marshes..."

‘You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precious! All dead.’~The Passage of the Marshes

The Ringwraiths, on the other hand, are the undead. I don't have access to the full OED, but the entry for "undead" is: "(of a fictional being, especially a vampire) technically dead but still animate."

Generally, this definition I think fits the Ringwraiths...they should be dead, but are not because they can still physically interact with the living (much different from the Oathbreakers and the spirits in the dead marshes). Indeed they are kept animated by their Rings of Powers, which gave their bearers immortality...or did it?

I think Bilbo's description of the Ring's effects on him are brilliant because it gives a simple understanding of what the Ring does. Bilbo comments that he feels "stretched," and this is a great description because despite living longer, it's not prolonging Bilbo's life, not really. Gollum is actually a better example, because Bilbo despite being very old for a hobbit, is still physically possible in Tolkien's story. Gollum, on the other hand has to be close to 600 years old and that is not possible for someone akin to hobbits.

For simplicity, let's just say an expected lifespan for Gollum if he never came across the ring would be 100 years. What the Ring does to him, I would say is take that same expected lifespan of 100 years and "stretches" it over a time span of 600 years, thousands of years...etc. It's a perversion of immortality.

Which this all leads to I guess my major question...is Gollum "undead?" That is if the Ringwraiths are kept animate merely because of the Rings, and when the Ring is destroyed the Ringwraiths pretty much fizzled out:

And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in a fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.~Mount Doom

If Gollum had not fallen in with the Ring, wouldn't he have just "went out" like the Nazgul? And if he was only being sustained because of the Ring, would this fit the definition that Gollum was "undead?"

[Soriman the Whide]

Gollum maintains a physical body throughout. Not quite undead yet in my book.

Sorry for low quality post, just wanted to remember this thread.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think the Men of Dunharrow are exactly what they're called, they are indeed dead. Spirits, bound to not be at rest because of their broken oath. Which is I think interesting considering the theme of Men's fear of death. Even if their blades no longer have any "bite" (Gimli makes a comment about this), few of the living could endure them, because it's like being confronted by their own mortality, literally staring into the face of their "Death."

But how do the "spirits" (for lack of a better identification) in the Dead Marshes fit in here? The Men of Dunharrow are bound by an oath. What about the "dead faces" Gollum describes:

I think you've drawn a good distinction here: dead means no longer having a body. You 'cannot reach them', their blades have no bite. To this category I would add Gorlim's appearance to Beren, and the ghosts of Cardolan:

Originally Posted by Fog on the Barrow-Downs

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast.

They don't appear visibly, but Merry is clearly briefly possessed by some remnant of the locals.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Ringwraiths, on the other hand, are the undead. I don't have access to the full OED, but the entry for "undead" is: "(of a fictional being, especially a vampire) technically dead but still animate."

The full online definition matches ("In vampirism, clinically dead but not yet at rest.") Looking at the examples, I think this is a Bram Stoker coinage - all the pre-Dracula usages look to just mean 'not dead'.

Originally Posted by The First tome..of the Paraphrase..vpon the Newe Testamente, 1548

Where as all men did eat therof, they neuertheles dyed, nether did any one of so great a number remain vndead.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Generally, this definition I think fits the Ringwraiths...they should be dead, but are not because they can still physically interact with the living (much different from the Oathbreakers and the spirits in the dead marshes). Indeed they are kept animated by their Rings of Powers, which gave their bearers immortality...or did it?

...

Which this all leads to I guess my major question...is Gollum "undead?" That is if the Ringwraiths are kept animate merely because of the Rings, and when the Ring is destroyed the Ringwraiths pretty much fizzled out:

If Gollum had not fallen in with the Ring, wouldn't he have just "went out" like the Nazgul? And if he was only being sustained because of the Ring, would this fit the definition that Gollum was "undead?"

Originally Posted by Soriman the Whide

Gollum maintains a physical body throughout. Not quite undead yet in my book.

Now this is one I hadn't even thought about before. We know that the Nazgul were undead: Eowyn claims it, and Tolkien directly tells us:

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’

...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

(The end of Eowyn's line is one of my favourite spoken lines in the entire book. ^_^)

I feel like the Nazgul were still somewhat corporeal - they can sit on horses, and their cloaks stay up - even if not visible. But as Soriman indicates, they were also not fully embodied. They survive being swept down a raging river, which isn't plausible for humans. Gollum, on the other hand, feels like he could still be injured; the Ring had extended his lifespan, but not turned him into something new.

The OED actually quotes a Tolkien-related source on this: P. H. Kocher's 1973 Master of Middle-Earth:

They still inhabit their original bodies, but these have faded and thinned in their component matter until they can no longer be said to exist in the dimension of the living. Their flesh is not alive, not dead, but ‘undead’.

Gollum's flesh was still alive, as far as we know - he eats, he feels pain. The Nazgul's had become something else.

And what about the Barrow-Wights? My understanding is they're spirits (of the dead? Maiar or other unembodied?) sent by the Witch-King to possess the bodies of the fallen Cardolan royalty. Since they are making use of flesh (or just bones? I've always understood the 'long arm' to have skin and so on, but the fact that the hand 'broke off' might imply something more brittle), are they undead? Or are they just dead and making use of handy corpses?

hS

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Soriman the Whide

Gollum maintains a physical body throughout. Not quite undead yet in my book.

Sorry for low quality post, just wanted to remember this thread.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I feel like the Nazgul were still somewhat corporeal - they can sit on horses, and their cloaks stay up - even if not visible. But as Soriman indicates, they were also not fully embodied. They survive being swept down a raging river, which isn't plausible for humans. Gollum, on the other hand, feels like he could still be injured; the Ring had extended his lifespan, but not turned him into something new.

Gollum's flesh was still alive, as far as we know - he eats, he feels pain. The Nazgul's had become something else.

Thank you! I think that distinction between Gollum and the Ringwraiths are important and something I overlooked. Even if he had not fallen in, Gollum would have also died when the Ring was destroyed, he doesn't pass all the criteria for being undead.

I think there can be connection drawn between the Ring sustaining Gollum and the Ringwraiths physical forms, but I agree with the point that Gollum could still be injured by ways that don't involve the destruction of the Ring. Therefor he has living flesh, he can "starve" as he often says to Frodo and Sam.

What sparked me originally thinking wait is Gollum "undead" was more than his connection and being sustained by the Ring, but also his strange attraction to dead things. He tells Frodo and Sam he tried to reach the dead apparitions in the marshes at one time, but he could not reach them, could not touch them. And I don't know about you but if I see strange dead faces floating in marshes my first reaction is not "oh let me just dive in there and try to grab it." I'd go as far to speculate that had Gollum seen the Dead Men of Dunharrow he would not have fled. So, Gollum appears to be in this odd category all by himself, not undead, but sustained by the Ring, and attraction to strange moistened faces lyin' in marshes.

[Mithadan]

To add a bit to this discussion, I am linking an old thread (which, in turn, links another even older one) that touches upon some of these issues. I certainly am not doing this to discourage discussion, but rather to add more ammunition.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ght=necromancy

I agree that Gollum and the Nazgul were not "dead," however the Nazgul may be where Gollum would have ended up, after being "stretched too thin." Then again, this may not be true because Gollum no longer had the Ring (but of course the Nine were "held" by Sauron so maybe the Wraiths didn't "have" their Rings). Nor was Gollum "undead." But the Nazgul, notwithstanding JRRT's characterization?

The Dead of Dunharrow were, obviously dead, as was Gorlim. How their shades remain, considering the Doom of Men, is an open question.

When we reach the Barrow-Wights, we touch upon the Necromancy thread linked above. Maybe a correct description would be dead but inhabited?

I hope that this encourages some more brainstorming.

[Boromir88]

Thank you for the link (and the link in the thread you linked), Mithadan. I think they will do exactly what you intend, and spark more discussion. Necromancy is certainly linked to a topic about the dead and the undead.

I was intrigued by the comment, in one of the threads, about Isildur and his heirs (Aragorn) being able to use weapons of Sauron (the Dead of Dunharrow) against him. I don't recall reading any character making that comment, but Aragorn is able to command the spirits of the oath-breakers. I don't think we could call Isildur or Aragorn necromancers, but it is an interesting point in perhaps understanding the power Aragorn had to "summon the dead to fight."

Looking at the words of Isildur's curse is interesting:

'Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: To rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through the years uncounted, and you shall be summone once again ere the end."~The Passing of the Grey Company

So the curse is their spirits will never be able to rest until they fulfill the oath they made to Isildur. What is perhaps more interesting is Isildur says Sauron was their "Black Master." Over the years I've perhaps forgotten and just assumed the Men of Dunharrow did not fight because they were scared of their mortality and frightened of the power of Sauron, but it's more than that:

"But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfill their oath, and they would not: for they had worshiped Sauron in the Dark Years."~ibid

This is going to be a lot of speculation on my part, but it contradicts what I had always assumed. I assumed they didn't fight because they feared death and then ironically, breaking their oath was the punishment for fearing their own mortality. But it goes beyond that, reading they had "worshiped" Sauron I think suggests possibly a cult or practitioners of sorcery. Is it too much of a stretch to see "worship" as having an association to necromancy, and therefor the Dead Men are indeed a case of weapons of Sauron being used against him?