The great end?

[Eruantalon]

I've been reading the lost tales history of ME lately. There is an idea that the enemy(dare not to say his dark name [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] )will escape his impisonment in the darkness of the outer reaches of the sky. Then destroy the great ship that is the sun.

I can't remember off hand and problay have to look it up. But there is a mair or valar
that steers and guids that ship. She is supposed to end her day at the great gate in the west.

One day she will be harmed or killed is the idea. By the enemy that is. There is one who loves her. He is again a mair or valar and its thought that at that time he will tear and destroy Middle earth fighting the enemy. There great fight will destroy middle earth in the great end.


I can't consider myself an Elrond when it comes to lore. There are much better loremasters than me.

Your ideas? Any input or help with this one? Any input or references orther than the forgotton tales? Is this just an early them that was amandoned?

The forgotten tales call elves knomes instead of elves but they seem pretty much the same people.

[Legolas]

All elves aren't called gnomes in the Lost Tales - only Noldorin elves, i.e. those that followed Finwe.

I don't know what you're talking about. Who is this "she"? Please clarify exactly what you're talking/asking about for the rest of us.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:52 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lalaith]

I think the 'she' referred to is Arien, the Maiden of the Sun. She is a Maia.
I don't know about her being killed, but she was very powerful and Morgoth was frightened of her.
However, in Norse mythology the Sun was also a chariot, driven by a maiden called Sol. She will be devoured by wolves at Ragnarok, the last battle between the Gods and Giants. Maybe Tolkien took this idea and toyed with it for his mythology, early on.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:03 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Finwe]

I think that Eruantalon is talking about the legend that Arien will one day be destroyed by Morgoth, when the latter escapes the Void through the Door of Night. Arien's "lover" Fionwë (who some sources say is the child of Manwë and Varda, along with Ilmarë), will vow vengeance on Morgoth (hmm... doesn't this sound familiar? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and eventually destroy him after a great battle that results in the destruction of Middle-earth.

[Knight of Gondor]

I always wonder about the Great End as well. Since Tolkien based his world largly on the Christian worldview (IE Illuvatar's creation, the fall of his creation) we knew there'd have to be an End...despite the Lost Tales' suggestion that Middle-Earth became England, and that the Silmarillion's stories were like mythological tie-ins to our world's history today, being, as Tolkien thought it, devoid of enchanting mythological richness.

There is mentioned a Great End either in LT or in The Silmarillion the idea that perhaps the Elves and Men will sing in unity the completion of the Music of the Ainur. There is also mentioned a great battle (Dagor Dagorath, the final battle where Good will triumph ultimately) where Melkor (or, Morgoth) is unchained to wreck havoc for a short time again on Middle-Earth before its renewing

Whatever the great end is, it probably means the destruction of Middle-Earth as we know it, but we must also recall Theoden's and Thorin's words upon their deaths; that they go to the halls of waiting until the World's renewing.

[Eruantalon]

Thanks for helping with my meager lore skills!

I was going trhough the book today and your right about the names and all.

Now has anyone heard of the idea where the dwarfs would help Aule rebuild everything afterswards. I'm looking through the books and trying to find where I read it.

Also great points on the Norse mytholoy! I wasn't aware of it.

Hannon Lee for you help and the information you've given!!

Vary good stuff!

[Legolas]

The thought of Arien's fate and the children having Valar were both discarded very early on. Tolkien decided that a great battle would happen upon Melkor's return in the end - the Dagor Dagorath. Mandos prophecied these events - his prophecies can be found in HoME IV and V, along with a ton of other info on "the end." Again, many of the ideas in that were abandoned also, like Turin coming back to slay Melkor. We're not sure that Tolkien still intended the final battle to take place once he reached his last thoughts on what happened to Arda - it became our own world, some three ages later.

A number of threads explain the specifics and discuss the final battle and the end of Arda - just do a subject search with "the end" or "dagor dagorath." Remember, the ideas shifted and Tolkien never really stated exactly what he thought last.

Dagor Dagorath

[Lalaith]

Again, many of the ideas in that were abandoned also, like Turin coming back to slay Melkor

I wish he hadn't abandoned that particular idea. Turin deserved that honour. His father, too.

[Eruantalon]

Thanks for the link Legolas. Although doing what you said would be earier. I actualy like talking to people and hearing ideas and things from people.

Thats why I put this up. To hear and share ideas and things from people.

Thanks again!

[Legolas]

I left it up for discussion for that particular purpose, but asking what people have heard about something isn't the way to incite discussion - if you like "talking to people and hearing ideas and things from people," it would be more helpful if you posed questions, whether broad or specfic, that asked for thought instead of simply listing facts. Why not discuss Tolkien's different motives? Were you curious about any of the changes? What end made the most sense to you? Question his judgement, speculate as to why he abandoned some of these ideas, etc. Talking to people and hearing their ideas - that is what the forum is for. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Tolkien might have trashed the Turin idea because that would have really complicated the whole Elves go to Mandos and Men go to Somewhere-we-don't-know. He would have had readers going, "So why does this Turin bloke get to stay in Aman, whereas all the other heroes don't?" It was probably one of the random ideas that he had, momentarily thought that it would work, but then later realized that it would only really confuse his readers. I think writers have a lot of those (at least I know I do [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]).

[Knight of Gondor]

So this begs the question: did/will Elves and Men join together in the end to sing the completion of the music of the Ainur? Time after time, while insisting that the path beyond the grave is dim and unknown, the Elves insist that the fates of Men and Elves are separate. I suppose as opposed to the Halls of Mandos and everything, where they wait apart, do they not join together in the Great End?

[Finwe]

Well, no one knows what the Great End is going to be like, so perhaps the Elven loremasters weren't talking about that. Until the Great End, which would be a very long time, the fates of the departed Elves and Men would remain separate. No one knew how long their world would endure, so it was difficult to pinpoint when the Great End would be, and say, "This is when Elves and Men shall reunite... blah blah blah."

[Gil-numen]

Turin got cursed by a valar (Morgoth). Maybe this was like a divine intervention.

-------------------------------------
"Tar-Cu"

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Another thing that I know is that Aman will again be placed on Arda, and all mankind will be brought there and then into the heavens.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

I'm curious, where exactly is this in LT? I read it, but can't remember where.

[Legolas]

It's Mandos' prophecy - note 31 with 'The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion' of VI. Quenta Silmarillon in Part Two - Valinor and Middle-earth Before The Lord of the Rings. Full quote is provided on the thread linked to above.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:51 PM January 19, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]