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Old 05-28-2002, 06:08 PM   #1
Maédhros
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Sting Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?

Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?
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Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased. For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar. Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.
And this was before Sauron had come to Númenor.
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Old 05-28-2002, 07:12 PM   #2
Kuruharan
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Question

It's kind of hard to say that Men were destined to do anything because they were given free will as part of Eru's gift to them.

But then again, Beren and Turin were both spoken of as having a doom on them.

(There, can I come down on both sides of an issue or what. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
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Old 05-28-2002, 09:18 PM   #3
Marileangorifurnimaluim
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Tolkien

Hail dwarf-friend, it's always good to see someone come down squarely on both sides of an argument! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Saves so much grief and warfare.

Okay, I'll take the challenge. And welcome to the Downs, Maedros. Good first post!

I say no, they were not destined. Rather, they were predisposed due to their human failings, jealousy, and mortality, and therefore likely to fall. I mean, what a set up. Paradise only inches away. Few could meet such a challenge. But that's the point of being given free will: that some may meet it, without the mechanations of the Valar. Or of destiny.

Destiny comes from the outside, the imposed will of Eru. Predisposition comes from the inside, human failings and nobility. The Numenorians had the free will to choose. Recall that not all chose wrongly.

I believe this capacity to rise above failings is why it was said that mankind was to participate in the next song, the mending of Arda. Such a capacity would be necessary wouldn't it, to rise above the failings of the breaking of Arda, in order to mend it? Oh, sigh, I'm once again in awe of Tolkien's poetic instinct.

-Maril

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 05-29-2002, 10:00 AM   #4
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Sting

hey Maedhros, welcome to the Downs.

No, I don't think the Númenóreans were ment to perish. As Kuruharan said Eru gave them free will as a gift. So, they might have chosen if they hadn't assailed the Undying Lands.
I think they perished because of the influence that one may have on the minds of men. And in this case I mean Sauron. I think, that if he hadn't been taken as a prisoner, Numenorë might still be. For if he hadn't been taken, he wouldn't have been the Kings chief counselor. He was it who at last maid them assail the Western Shores, with his lies and whisperings.

I believe that if Sauron hadn't come to Numenorë, the Númenóreans would never think of assailing the West, for it was Sauron who told them that the Valar were frightened and that Melkor was Lord of All.

greetings,
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:57 PM   #5
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Sting

Thank you for the welcome.
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I say no, they were not destined. Rather, they were predisposed due to their human failings, jealousy, and mortality, and therefore likely to fall. I mean, what a set up. Paradise only inches away. Few could meet such a challenge. But that's the point of being given free will: that some may meet it, without the mechanations of the Valar. Or of destiny.
I mean, you are only slightly away from paradise and your whole people had a ban on them not to travel west. Men is always seeking the unknow, it was only matter of time that they would have tried that.
Look at what the valar did. The created this island where you could see the "paradise" of gods and elves which cannot die. Why couldn't they put it in a place where the temptation would be less.
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Old 05-29-2002, 01:48 PM   #6
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I thought you'd seize that thought (I would, if I were holding up the other side of the discussion). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

It's a cruel set-up, but not ill-intentioned, to doom the Numenoreans. The Valar were both powerful and strikingly innocent. Again and again they failed to take into account the possible negative consequences of their actions. They never imagined when they went to fetch the elves to Valinor that some might not come, or what might happen by splitting the firstborn. Never pictured what harm Morgoth could do in their midst. They never dreamed Feanor would not give up the Silmarils. And for all of their power, they were helpless to stop Ungoliant, or save Feanor from his own impassioned foolhardiness.

Their power was immense, yet still limited. Like us when confronted with an ant with a broken leg. For all the fancy things that we can do, invent computers, what have you, we can't fix something that small. And if try to intervene, we make matters worse.

Eru alone was all-powerful, but once the song was sung he did not directly intervene, and the fate of men specifically he left to their own hands.

As far as Sauron alone being to blame.. weeellllll.. I dunno. Ar-Pharazon was pillaging and enslaving most of the known world. They would not have assailed Valinor, true. But the majority of the Numenoreans were up to no good in any case. They had become corrupt already, which is why they were ripe for Sauron's lies.

-Maril
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Old 05-29-2002, 02:08 PM   #7
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But the majority of the Numenoreans were up to no good in any case. They had become corrupt already, which is why they were ripe for Sauron's lies.
But how could the Númenóreans have avoided being corrupted if they could see just miles away paradise and be forever banished to go there. The temptation will only increase in time.
Remember, there was one king who tried to move again in the right path, but was ignored by the Valar.
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But when Inziladûn acceded to the sceptre, he took again a title in the Elven-tongue as of old, calling himself Tar-Palantir, for he was far-sighted both in eye and in mind, and even those that hated him feared his words as those of a true-seer. He gave peace for a while to the Faithful; and he went once more at due seasons to the Hallow of Eru upon the Meneltarma, which Ar-Gimilzôr had forsaken. The White Tree he tended again with honour; and he prophesied, saying that when the Tree perished, then also would the line of the Kings come to its end. But his repentance was too late to appease the anger of the Valar with the insolence of his fathers, of which the greater part of his people did not repent.
Yeez, what do the Valar wanted from men.
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:47 PM   #8
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Hail dwarf-friend, it's always good to see someone come down squarely on both sides of an argument! Saves so much grief and warfare.
I try. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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