Beleriand and Middle earth

[Joy]

Could someone help me with geography?

I am trying to figure out where Beleriand is in relation to Middle Earth in the 3rd Age. From the map in the Sil, East Beleriand contains the Ered Luin, which is the Western most portion of ME in the 3rd Age. Is this correct?

Also, where would Belegost and Nogrod be located on the map. I understang the Nogrod is the Southren most city of the Dwarfs in the Blue Mountians. But there is two sections to the Blue Mountians, one North of The River Lhûn, near to Forlindon and one part South in Harlindon and the Brandywine River.

[Elrian]

Beleriand would have been west of the Ered Luin from the northern part of the Bay of Belfalas to past the Cape of Forochel. Nogrod looks to have been where Mithlond is in the Third Age according to the Atlas of Middle Earth, that part of the Ered Luin sank. Belegost is still there south of Mithlond. Beleriand sank at the end of the First Age or very early in the Second Age. Hope this helps answer your question.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Joy]

Thank you so much Elrian! I am in the process of writing a fan-fic and couldn't figure out exactly where everything is.

It was hard trying to put the map in the Sil together against the map in LotR. It didn't exactly match up.

[Elrian]

Your very welcome, I just came across one online that could help with your fan fic as well, it shows where Beleriand was in relation to the Second and Third Age Middle Earth. Map.

[Joy]

Thank you so much Elrian! That was exactly what I was looking for! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tarthang]

Wow! Geat Map! Looks like the maps I've become familiar with, not one of those shoddy ones, used in most current printings. For some reason, I'd alway's imagined Beleriand stretching in a more east-west direction that tha depicted in the link. I wonder where it originated from?

[Daniel Telcontar]

I understand what you mean. I also think of Beleriand as more east-west. But if you exclude Hithlum on the map, it helps a bit, 'cause I'm not sure if Hithlum was a part of Beleriand.

[haste]

I think the creator of that map had some good creative thoughts about the way Beleriand was located in relation to the rest of Middle Earth. But I believe it was located more north and west of middle earth in the 3rd age. I mean when Feanor left Fingolfin and his following they had to cross the "Helarax" (I dont know if that is right it has been a while). But when they crossed the Grinding Ice to me the land of Beliriand had to located higher north. And Beleriand is not that big in the way I perceive it.
Well those are just my two cents.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are probably right about Beleriand lying to the north, near Helcaraxe [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] , but it must have been very big, since nearly all the elves lived there, together with three dwarven cities and the human settlements, primary the Edain.

[Tarthang]

Ok, I went back to study that map some more, it doesn't look right. North and west plus more east-westward sound right. If you pay carefull attention to the section of Ered Luin from the third age, you'll notice shadows of where another map was overlaid and the ranges don't match up evenly. Also looking at the map, it would appear that the Anduin did not flow into the sea, which I believe is wrong.

A point to consider: Beleriand was no more by the third age. Though the Silm does mention mountain tops and a few other high places remained above water as small isles.
Also in the third age the sea's had bent with Numenor's destruction. I interpret that to mean the world was flat and then became a globe.

If Iweren't at work right now, I could cross reference the maps in the Silm with the Maps in the LOTR. Personally I think the Beleriand map needs to be moved northwards so that the bottom part of both Ered Luin ranges match up, or close to.

Just remembered, one of the maps in the Silm does show Eriador, to it's wester edge in the Misty mtns. if I'm remembering correctly.

[haste]

I just feel that with the pairing of both maps of Beleriand and what remains of Middle Earth Beleriand is just to huge. I mean I know Beleriand is was a pretty massive piece of real estate but comparing them like that is just to different. And I was reading past replies on this thread a little more closly and someone said that Nogrod was drowned but Belagost was spared from the drowning of Beleriand (or vise versa I cant remember). But I seem to recall (cant back this one up without my books) that both of those dwarven cities were sunk. And that is when many dwarves left for Moria. I mean Thorin's company was from the Blue Mountains but I would think if they came from Durin's line they would be harbored in a massive Dwarve city like Belegost but Tokien never mentioned it. I hate saying all this without backing myself up but didn't Thorin once say that he was an exile when he lived in the Blue Mountains? I mean sure he was born in Erebor but I mean if there was a massive dwarf city like Belegost of Nogrod still in the blue mountains, I would figure he would feel more at home there. So I guess when what I took a whole lot of writing to say is that I believe the map is wrong, both Belegost and Nogrod got sunk with Beleriand, and Beleriand is big but not that big.

[*Varda*]

Thank you so much for the link to the map! I'd also been puzzling over how Beleriand could fit in the kind of space shown in LotR, so it was really helpful to find out it'd sunk. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Even so, there still seems to be a bigger space between the Blue Mountains and where Beleriand is than is shown in The Silmarillion *stares at maps for a little while* i'm finding it hard to explain myself here, sorry i'm confusing anyone (i'm confusing myself [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] ).

Beleriand seemed to be really close to the Blue Mountains right? But when I look at the LotR map there seems to be a biggish gap between where Beleriand sank and the Blue Mountains begin. They seem to be too close together on the Silmarillion map and the map on the link you gave us.

Sorry if i rambled and sounded kind of confusing.

[Daniel Telcontar]

The Blue mountains form the western part of Beleriand, and they didn't totally sink. Also Lindon did not sink, thus making it the only part of Beleriand still above sea level.