The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies > Sequence-by-Sequence
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-05-2006, 02:34 PM   #1
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
LotR3-RotK-Seq15

Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is. - The Outlaw Josie Wales


*** Regarding the first scene, The Witch-King’s Hour, please see the additional note at the bottom of the post. ***

The Battle Trolls stalk the soldiers like prey; the orcs find those hiding. Gandalf, signaling for a retreat to the Second Level, calls to “get the women and children out,” and that makes no sense. Was Minas Tirith so in need of soldiers that it had everyone on the line? Or is PJ just making the situation appear even more desperate as we feel more for those not in armor? We quickly switch over to Gothmog, who tells his radioman to let the troops know that the order of the day is to kill all and let Eru sort them out. And to think that, until this moment, I thought that the orcs and Battle Trolls were going to give the civilians bars of chocolate…

Note that the Gate is still manned and soldiers shoot arrows both at those entering that Gate and those having entered. In my book, this means that Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, and his men still hold the Gate.

The up-close-and-personal shots continue – maybe too much, as we see soldiers and civilians being overrun by the Mordor hordes. By the by, do any of the orcs look like Darth Maul (i.e. members of the Zabrak race) to you?

The carnage piles up. Gandalf, having taken over the role of Mr. Obvious, tells everyone to “Fight for your lives!” It’s just wonderful dialogue, surely written by either Tolkien or Shakespeare. And you almost get the feeling that Gandalf left the thought unfinished, as he meant to say, “…as I’m leaving on the next Eagle out of here. Buh-bye!”

In the mess a small voice is heard calling to Gandalf. It’s Pip, seeking out the White Wizard. Why, I don’t know. Finding Gandalf, Pippin yells and tells of Denethor’s madness, that the Steward intends on burning his son alive. Gandalf, finding a foe that is more his match, and conveniently up on the cushy Seventh Level where nary a Battle Troll can be found, rides off in haste. But wait! Something bars his way. It’s the Witch-King of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgûl, the Captain of Despair, Last to be Drowned in the Flooding of the Ford of Bruinen, mounted upon the Fell Beast. Gandalf shields himself with his Staff, and tells the Witch-King to get himself gone. The Witch-King retorts with more lines from the book. I think that we’re supposed to read between the lines when the Witch-King says, “Do you not know death when you see it, old man?” as we’re to know that wearing a new helm makes you more the man…or undead man…or whatever.

Pippin screams, and Shadowfax backs away from the other stead. The Witch-King draws his Morgul blade, and it catches fire and creates a small vacuum, as you can see it pulling Gandalf hair towards itself. The Witch-King screams/screeches, and POW! breaks Gandalf’s staff, throwing the old wizard and Pip to the ground. Gandalf is slow in rising, and as the Fell Beast growls, Pippin, bravely enough, draws his own sword, but the Fell Beast is just too scary for both he and the Last of the Mearas.

Exit, stage left.

We hear more dire and doom as we see a close up shot of Gandalf prone on the ground. His face ticks a bit, and he, who has already faced death once and returned, now seems to be afraid. The Witch-King makes to strike, but then…

Not a rooster but horns are heard in the distance. Both the wizard and Witch-King ponder this sound, and the Witch-King flies off to see what makes the noise.

Like back in the Shire when Merry threw a bag to distract the Nazgûl, here too the Black Rider is all too eager to follow any noise and leave its prey.

Gothmog must have heard something as well, as he turns from the sack of the city to see. Riders approach on the horizon, and it’s a most welcome sight. Is that the sunrise or sunset that are behind the horse lords? Like in one of Clint Eastwood’s flicks, it’s noted that you should always have an edge. More and more riders appear, and my heart beats faster every time I see this scene. Théoden looks at the besiegers, as do those that follow him. Do they ride to attack, or slink back off and hide while there is still time? To Éowyn and Merry, it’s now no longer all about playing dress up. Éowyn tries to encourage the hobbit, telling him to have courage, “Courage for our friends.” Nice, that.

Gothmog, getting way too much time to prepare for the cavalry assault, gets him orcs in line. Théoden gives a few orders then gives a short speech. He rides down the line, hitting spears with his sword. Note that Bernard Hill is left-handed, but he had to hold the sword in his right to make this shot work. Does that make him dour-handed?

Death! They shout, and it’s scary, but in a good way. The scene goes right to the heart, after so much misery and suffering, it’s about time things turned our way.

And not one Dwarven joke to be seen.

The only thing, small that it is, that this scene misses is Théoden’s golden shield. The riders make for the city, and the orcs try to stop them. Riders fall, but the Rohirrim ride on. Now it’s Gothmog’s turn to show some fear. If only he had a son to burn…

The riders break the orc lines and deliver death wherever they go.

Denethor wants to look his best, now that Théoden has come, and so treats himself to an oil facial (note that it’s light oil – less calories). The Steward asks to be immolated, and his servants obey without much hesitation.

“Well, he did bring that hobbit into his service.”

Before the pyre is lit, Gandalf shows up to crash the BBQ. Denethor still tries to get the party started, but Gandalf, feeling less now that he was destaffed, takes it out on the nearest authority figure. The old wizard, he who put an encouraging hand on Frodo’s shoulder, hits the Steward with a spear, who goes sailing off of the pyre. Pippin the firewalker tries to help Faramir. Using his ent draught-derived strength, the hobbit roles the Steward’s son off of the pyre, which is just what a depressed, oil soaked, arrow stricken, poisoned, almost victim of filicide needs. Faramir even takes a little fire damage. Denethor gets up and wrestles with Pip, and Gandalf, now feeling more like the warrior that he was, goes after the old man. The Wizard spurs Shadowfax at Denethor. The horse knocks the Steward into the fire. Just before he becomes the human torch, Denethor sees that Faramir has opened his eyes.

Great, just great, Denethor thinks. With fever, it’s douse with oil and drop, not ignite. Stupid me.

And nice to see that Shadowfax can kill, as that talent might be useful if the horse were used in, say, a battle.

The flaming Steward gets off of his pyre and runs for the wall. Before the body is even cold (which, in this case, is going to take a little bit longer than usual), Gandalf announces the Steward’s fate. What’s too ludicrous is that Denethor is able to run the entire length of the Silent Street, then all the way out to that part of the City by the White Tree that sticks out like the front of a ship, then dives down to the attackers. It would be more funny if he landed on an orc just next to Gothmog, who would then make some funny remark.

Back on the field, the Rohirrim have the advantage. They begin to rout the orcs. But then, for Sauron, it’s time to start Act 2. You can see Théoden’s jaw drop when he stares out at the approaching oliphaunts, behind which the retreating orcs hide. There might be about 18 of the beasts, but that is way too many. The horns that they use are wonderful, as they are completely different-sounding than those of the Rohirrim.

Théoden’s men appear to be dismayed, but the King forms them up to meet this new challenge. Note that I would have dispersed my riders to make for smaller targets, but that’s me. Théoden charges towards the oliphaunts, and the two groups crash as they meet. The oliphaunts, like walking towers, overmatch the smaller Riders on their horses. Our brief glimpse of hope was just a tease, now gone, and we’re back sliding down to despair. It’s like the sun went behind a cloud.

Each group circles to continue the attack. Surely I’m not the first to see the ‘Battle on Hoth’ – the Empire Strikes Back Star Wars movie where the small snow speeders fight the large AT-ATs – here.

Éomer, finally given a chance to shine, throws a spear into a particularly obnoxious oliphaunt driver, and the driver’s death sets up a collision that takes out two of the beasts. Éowyn takes her attack run at the large walkers, and with Merry at the wheel, she wields two swords and takes out another beast with skillful swordplay. With that, it seems that the tide turns once again. Théoden yells to bring them down, as he and his Riders have gotten over their initial shock and have figured out how to cripple the oliphaunts.

Merry and Éowyn are spilled, and so must fight on their own feet now. Théoden gets in trouble, and Éowyn helps as she can. Her uncle takes notice of this young warrior. Merry goes on his own rampage. Finally, it’s boss time and Éowyn meets Gothmog. They duel, and she takes out his leg. Now he’s gimpy for sure - down, but not out.

So the battle has turned, but it’s far from over. One enemy surely is left unfought. Where is the Witch-King?

***

***

We come full circle.

The Witch-King’s Hour scene, not in the theatrical release, is my ‘signature scene.’ Without its inclusion in the Extended Edition of the RotK DVD, most probably I would never have made it to the Barrow Downs. For that, you can either thank or curse Peter Jackson as seems fitting. Anyway, when I first watched RotK EE DVDs, I was excited as, well, the FotR EE version surpassed the theatrical release, and so I awaited what wonders PJ included in this version. I’d already made my peace with the numerous changes from the text, and all of the silliness that PJ thought would enhance the story.

But then, there it was, THE SCENE. Gandalf got smacked. To me, it was sheer blasphemy and completely unbelievable, as the EE versions were for persons like me, the Tolkien fanatic. What was PJ et al thinking? That night, after watching the remainder of the DVD, I put them away and did not rewatch RotK for a good few months - I was that annoyed. Surely others thought as I did, but one never knows, and so I searched for answers on the internet.

I found them here.

Never before did I post or even read an internet forum, yet here I was, joining up just so that I could make myself heard. Incredibly the moniker ‘alatar’ was still available, and so I took that one, though at the time I figured that I would vent about the Gandalf-Witch King scene and leave it at that. Unless the forum were organizing a large pie-throwing attack on PJ’s house, I didn’t see the attraction. But then I got repped, got into a few ‘arguments’ with Essex, who showed me that there was another side of the movies, got hooked, and after that I started moving around the forum a bit and found that I kinda liked it here.

And so here I will stay a bit.

But anyway, back to the scene at hand. Here are a couple of my posts regarding this scene. Over the years (?) I’ve made my peace with PJ and this scene, but here are my thoughts from back then:


Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Throughout the trilogy PJ lessened the role of Gandalf. The Grey Pilgrim starts as the prime motivator behind the forces of good and ends up just some kindly old man who carries a big stick - until *that* exploded.

In FOTR, Gandalf gets the Ring moving towards destruction, escapes from the clutches of the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth and takes on a Balrog. (I painfully accepted the change in regards to whose idea it was to go through Moria, among others).

In TTT, after surviving the Balrog fight and supposedly becoming more powerful (as witnessed when he meets the Three Hunters in Fangorn), he's now an exorcist and an errand rider.

In ROTK, after 'firing' Saruman, Gandalf loses his nerve and has to be reassured about the plan. He can't get the Rohirrim to fight unless there's some watch fire thing message comes from Gondor. Pippin lights the same while Gandalf acts as a distraction.

After using his staff to chase away the Nazgûl, Gandalf's in the back of the formation that greets the three trolls that come knocking at the gates and are dressed to kill. Why didn't he use the staff then?

He loses to the Witch-King, then has to find another stick to whack another king in the head. I assume that *he* spurs Shadowfax at Denethor, which is odd in that he spent some time talking with Frodo about 'needlessly dealing out death,' which could and accidentally did happen. Didn't see a lot of pity there. And I realize that Pippin needed something to do, but what does Gandalf really do in the Houses of the Dead?

After the big battle he is again concerned about the plan, but luckily Aragorn has a good idea. During the battle at the Black Gate he seems (to me) to be just another sword, or captain. He does, however, guide the eagles to Mount Doom.

Seeing what PJ had done to Gandalf, I'm glad that the Scouring of the Shire wasn't filmed. We'd have Gandalf crying after hearing 'sauce' from Ted Sandyman*...

*Yes, I know that that didn't happen, but we're talking PJ's world here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar

Then there's that Gandalf guy. See much of him in FOTR. I like him. Wise, kind, a bit more emotional than that Strider guy - I see Gandalf as a real hero as he sacrifices himself to save his friends from that Balrog thing. Thought that he died, but as we never see the body, and he's in the TTT trailer, I'm assured that he's resurrected. Seems to be the kind of guy that you'd want around, as he'd have your back.

He returns in TTT and ROTK. As posted previously, he now is bigger and badder. Those three running guys can't hurt him in Fangorn. He is now more powerful than that other wizard, not only surviving a fireball blast but also breaking that wizard's staff. Gandalf uses his staff to chase away the flying Nazgûl and he's at the Gates when Grond does its work. Still in the thick of things, and leading from the front. It may look dark, but as I see him on the screen, I know that the good guys are far from being done in.

Then, for some reason he loses his staff to the W-K, who I guess is twice bigger and badder as he now wears a helmet. Okay. But Gandalf on the ground looking fearful? This doesn't make sense, as he beat the Balrog and the Wizard and some trolls and assorted orcs. And with the exception of the helmet, isn't this the same W-K that couldn't catch four hobbits in the Shire, and ran away from a sword- and flame-wielding Aragorn? And Gandalf chased him away with some light from the same staff?

And Pippin, who was the least brave of any of the characters in the films, at least makes an attempt to stand up to the W-K (he did attempt to fight five Nazgûl at Weathertop, and so maybe this explains it) and the flying thing. And though he's small, he's at least standing, making him for once 'taller' than Gandalf.

And later the W-K is taken out by a hobbit and Éowyn, both of which, as far as I know, have little fighting experience. So why was Gandalf so afraid? Where was the wise, kind heroic guy that I admired those past ~9 hours?

So that's a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that the scene/character was not internally consistent, opened huge plot holes and I really like Gandalf.

Just think - what if the Witch-King took the extra two seconds needed to slay the helplessly prone Gandalf before the Rohirrim blew their horns (It's well known that Nazgûl, like Pavlov's dogs, just *have* to go and see what's up when they hear horns blowing...)? We'd have BBQed Faramir, meaning that PJ could cut the Houses of Healing scene entirely (Éowyn who?), making room for yet another cameo and/or more Legolas-Gimli slapstick. Aragorn doesn't need the White Wizard in the 'Last Debate' nor at the Black Gate. And just what does Gandalf accomplish in the scene with the Mouth of Sauron? Wouldn't that scene have been better if the Mouth of Sauron came out, talked threateningly awhile, and, in Indiana Jones fashion, Aragorn just takes him out? Then Gimli could say something funny...

Gandalf doesn't do much afterwards anyway in ROTK except for helping Aragorn put his crown on correctly ("Do the feathery-looking things go in the front or the back?") and helping Frodo board the Last Ship ("Hi, I'm Gandalf, your ship's Steward...").

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
I think that I could have accepted the staff breaking/prone wizard more easily if Gandalf would have simply 'smiled' just before the horns started blowing. It would have been like saying to the WK that while you're up here, the tides of battle are about to turn.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 08:15 AM   #2
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Never before did I post or even read an internet forum, yet here I was, joining up just so that I could make myself heard. Incredibly the moniker ‘alatar’ was still available, and so I took that one, though at the time I figured that I would vent about the Gandalf-Witch King scene and leave it at that. Unless the forum were organizing a large pie-throwing attack on PJ’s house, I didn’t see the attraction. But then I got repped, got into a few ‘arguments’ with Essex, who showed me that there was another side of the movies, got hooked, and after that I started moving around the forum a bit and found that I kinda liked it here.
I remember the days and fun we had 'discussing' this scene. Without doubt the most fun I've had on these forums. If ever a scene has been done to it's death it's this one!!! But hey, as you said, if PJ had not done the scene this way we wouldn't have you here to grace this forum, and the Downs wouldn't definately be a duller place! Keep it up!

(I'll reply later on the rest - I'm slow on the updates to these scenes these days - sorry)
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 04:13 PM   #3
Elladan and Elrohir
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
Elladan and Elrohir has just left Hobbiton.
The worst moment in the film trilogy, followed by one of the best, followed by one that at the very least could have been better.

It seems redundant to give any more criticism to the you-know-what scene. How about reasons for why it's in there, albeit in the EE? I will say that one thing it does is symbolize the utter defeat of Gondor, the lowest point . . . followed by the glorious horns of the Rohirrim at cock-crow.

The charge of the Rohirrim is brilliant, and I think it gets at least nine-tenths of the book's glory. If only Aragorn's appearance could have been anywhere near this good. . . . Bernard Hill has been subtly great throughout, and now he gets center stage and, of course, does awesome. And hey, who's that bearded Rohan guy? Well, I'll be, it's Eomer! Where has he been? In the entire trilogy, he's on screen for about six and a half minutes (no, that's not an actual statistic).

Then, it's time for the Pyre of Denethor. John Noble continues to be a master of dementia. I think I can actually defend Gandalf's actions here. He starts out by knocking Denethor off the pyre, temporarily saving his life; then lets Pippin off to grab Faramir. When he does rear Shadowfax and knock Denny back onto the pyre, I think it's because he realizes that the Steward's going to kill himself regardless and could still harm Pippin or Faramir. I can't say I buy that interpretation 100%, but I think it's somewhat plausible. And of course, as mentioned already, having Denny run all that way and off the edge is pretty ridiculous, though a striking visual. Gandalf's accompanying narration seems flat, because we haven't got a chance to know Denethor at all, much less to like him.
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING
Elladan and Elrohir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2006, 12:26 PM   #4
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
I remember the days and fun we had 'discussing' this scene. Without doubt the most fun I've had on these forums. If ever a scene has been done to it's death it's this one!!! But hey, as you said, if PJ had not done the scene this way we wouldn't have you here to grace this forum, and the Downs wouldn't definately be a duller place! Keep it up!
Much agreed with all of that. Had you not been so 'proPJ,' I wouldn't have had to research (well, somewhat) and refine my position, and so could have left it at a few posts, but no! you just wouldn't agree that my point of view was the only correct view.

Thanks for all of your past and future posts.

Something that I forgot to mention, but isn't it interesting that Gothmog didn't see the need to post scouts atop the rise upon which the Rohirrim collect. Did he feel that the Rohirrim wouldn't come (surely Sauron saw the signal fires), or did they come by an unexpected path, like in the books?

To me Gothmog was just negligent, but that's what you get when you have major operations conducted by a mere orc chieftain...

Elladan and Elrohir, to me there's no way to 'pretty up' the fact that Gandalf sought to kill the Steward. Contrast the Gandalf here with the one in Moria who counseled against slaying Gollum.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 03:02 PM   #5
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Something that I forgot to mention, but isn't it interesting that Gothmog didn't see the need to post scouts atop the rise upon which the Rohirrim collect. Did he feel that the Rohirrim wouldn't come (surely Sauron saw the signal fires), or did they come by an unexpected path, like in the books?
This is the one and only time I'm ever going to use a quote (ish) from Star Trek, but as Spock points out to Kirk as they are being hunted by Khan 'He thinks in only 2 dimensions'. i.e. Some arrogant, over confident generals can sometimes be very blinkered!
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2006, 12:33 PM   #6
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
This is the one and only time I'm ever going to use a quote (ish) from Star Trek, but as Spock points out to Kirk as they are being hunted by Khan 'He thinks in only 2 dimensions'. i.e. Some arrogant, over confident generals can sometimes be very blinkered!
Interesting that you cite that scene (think that I may have watched once or twice ). Anyway, from memory, doesn't the Enterprise still enter the same 'plane' before attacking Khan's ship (meaning that Kirk doesn't bring the Enterprise down on top of the Reliant, perpendicular to the plane in which the Reliant sits.)?

Something else that I've noted: what is the use of Screechers in the air if they cannot see the approach of the Rohirrim?
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 03:19 PM   #7
Elladan and Elrohir
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
Elladan and Elrohir has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Elladan and Elrohir, to me there's no way to 'pretty up' the fact that Gandalf sought to kill the Steward. Contrast the Gandalf here with the one in Moria who counseled against slaying Gollum.
Well, okay, but you'd have to agree it's a slightly different situation. Here, Denethor has grabbed Pippin, and as I rewatch the scene, I think he's got more than his own death in his eyes, due to his madness. I don't know if 'pretty up' is the right term, but I still think you can justify this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Something else that I've noted: what is the use of Screechers in the air if they cannot see the approach of the Rohirrim?
They apparently didn't spot the Rohirrim in the book, either.
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING
Elladan and Elrohir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 03:44 PM   #8
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir
They apparently didn't spot the Rohirrim in the book, either.
In the books, to me, they are there to spread fear and remain pretty much out of bow shot (not that any remained on the walls to take a shot). Their Chief is riding through the Gate when the Rohirrim appear, and so hasn't the best vantage point to see the Riders. Plus, he'd left a trap on the road, with pits and orcs, and so thought it "inconceivable" that the Rohirrim would even show. And the orcs and other eyed creatures were baffled a bit by the Darkness.

In the movie it seems that there is more light, and the Winged One is flying around the battlefield more. He and his eight aces strafe the city, and to me that means that they have some kind of sight, and so would see the other army appear. Plus Gothmog wasn't blind, and unless we assume that Theoden et al were assisted off-screen by the Woses, there was a road by which help could come.

I quibble. Thanks for posting.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 12:24 AM   #9
FeRaL sHaDoW
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 234
FeRaL sHaDoW has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to FeRaL sHaDoW
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
they are there to spread fear and remain pretty much out of bow shot (not that any remained on the walls to take a shot)
i dont get this what is the point of having fell beasts if they are not going to use them as major items of war??? they are always out of bow range and every one is too scared to try and shoot them. why hide away if no ones gona try shooting you??? i still wanna see a nazgul fall 15 hundred feet. :
__________________
God created night,
but man created darkness....
FeRaL sHaDoW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 12:53 PM   #10
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW
i dont get this what is the point of having fell beasts if they are not going to use them as major items of war???
In the books, the Nazgul are like the opposites of Gandalf - they discourage. Their weapon is fear; others wield the swords, hammers, axes and bows. But these material things are not enough. Only by overcoming the will of the defenders can Minas Tirith be taken. However, the Black Riders' steads are mortal and can be slain, as when Legolas plunks one from the air on the way to the Emyn Muil. And so, by remaining above the battle (okay, so they throw some darts, I think), they spread fear over a greater area than if they were Arda-bound. Plus it allows them to get wherever they're going a bit faster.


Quote:
they are always out of bow range and every one is too scared to try and shoot them. why hide away if no ones gona try shooting you???
Prince Imrahil, like Legolas, may have been able to bring one down. And walking all the way back to Barad-dur and explaining why you lost yet another mount is never fun.


Quote:
i still wanna see a nazgul fall 15 hundred feet. :
In flames, of course...
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 05:40 PM   #11
FeRaL sHaDoW
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 234
FeRaL sHaDoW has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to FeRaL sHaDoW
i see your points. but i still wanna see a nazgul fall 15 hundred feet "in flames of course"
__________________
God created night,
but man created darkness....
FeRaL sHaDoW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 03:13 PM   #12
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Noise of can of worms reopening......

Looking back at it now, I don't think Gandalf looks THAT scared. I can just imagine him thinking 'oh s*d this, sorry Valar, but I'm not going to die twice' and showing us his Power in Full if the WK did land a strike..... He doesn't need his staff anyway as we can see by his destroying of Saruman's staff (both book and movie wise).

Yes this scene (to us Tolkien devotees) could have been better if closer to the book, but PJ obviously wanted to install some more drama out of the scene, and showing us the Rohirrim really did arrive in the nick of time. And if Theoden hadn't prattled on for half an hour to his troups (he must have seen a Middle-earth version of Henry 5th before he set out) then Gandalf might still have a staff to his name!

But the Ride of the Rohirrim. Oh how good was that! (Except for the PJ look alike who just rides through the orcs without swinging a sword or spear and looking like he's in an equastiran 3 day event!!!) It really brought the book to life.

This scene, just before Thedoen attacks, is one of my favourite parts of the book. Every time I read it it sends a shiver up my spine. I think it's the way we can see some of the strands of the story join together. We can see Grond in the distance marshalled by the Witch King. We hear Theoden marshall his troops, putting together his battle plan. In my head I can hear and see the forces of War fighting. It's a truly marvellous set up -

The film can't come close to conveying the above for me, but then I knew it wouldn't. I'm just pleased it was a good as it was. Very stirring!

WOW!

Just come back to the PC from watching the Mumakil fight. I'd forgotten how good the EE version of this is. I even gave an uncontrolable 'Go on Merry!!' as he started fighting the baddies. Good knife work!

What about the look of despair followed by resolution on Theoden's face as he spots the mumakil, seconds after thinking his job was almost finished. You acted them off the stage Bernard!
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 11:36 AM   #13
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
Looking back at it now, I don't think Gandalf looks THAT scared. I can just imagine him thinking 'oh s*d this, sorry Valar, but I'm not going to die twice' and showing us his Power in Full if the WK did land a strike..... He doesn't need his staff anyway as we can see by his destroying of Saruman's staff (both book and movie wise).
Agreed. Gandalf appears scared just before his staff explodes (and who wouldn't?). He seems a little frightened when the Witch-King barks at him while the wizard lies prone on the ground (see picture). Note that this also could be due to Pippin, behind him, considering defending the old man - Pip's like a box of chocolates...


Quote:
Yes this scene (to us Tolkien devotees) could have been better if closer to the book, but PJ obviously wanted to install some more drama out of the scene, and showing us the Rohirrim really did arrive in the nick of time. And if Theoden hadn't prattled on for half an hour to his troups (he must have seen a Middle-earth version of Henry 5th before he set out) then Gandalf might still have a staff to his name!
But the Ride of the Rohirrim takes place, from memory, after Gandalf loses his staff. Me wonders just what the Witch-King was doing between the arrival of the Rohirrim and his attack on Theoden. Are Fell Beasts afraid of mumakil?



Quote:
The film can't come close to conveying the above for me, but then I knew it wouldn't. I'm just pleased it was a good as it was. Very stirring!
Much agreed. PJ did well here.


Quote:
What about the look of despair followed by resolution on Theoden's face as he spots the mumakil, seconds after thinking his job was almost finished. You acted them off the stage Bernard!
The only downside of Bernard Hill - wonderful actor here - is that we never really get to see Eomer. He's just some other toady of the King, like the guy who dresses Theoden before the battle at Helm's Deep. You hear his name, but he seems not important to story.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gandalf1.jpg (37.3 KB, 288 views)
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 02:12 PM   #14
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,467
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Boots

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Me wonders just what the Witch-King was doing between the arrival of the Rohirrim and his attack on Theoden. Are Fell Beasts afraid of mumakil?
Perhaps he was shouting out the other Nazgul for not spotting 5,000 or so Riders heading towards the battlefield.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2006, 02:48 AM   #15
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
They did not see the Rohirrim for a number of reasons:

1/ Because the WK had tunnel vision, and was arrogant like any other bad General.

2/ In my minds eye, movie Theoden and his forces also found the short cut through the hills and cut out the orcs waiting to ambush them before they hit Minas Tirith.

3/The Nazgul were utterly focused on the city (remember they cannot see 'the real world' that well) and are probably relying on their fell beasts to see the foe and do the damage.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.