The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies > Sequence-by-Sequence
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2005, 11:33 PM   #1
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
LotR1-FotR-Seq05

Only those that are lost can never go home.

There’s movement in the cornfield, and we find Sam hiking along. But where’s Mr. Frodo? Sam's panic may be due to having seen Children of the Corn as you're just never sure what walks between the rows. But really, were Sam and Frodo walking so far apart that Sam would lose sight or 'ear' of him? But it sets up a great line - "I thought that I'd lost you." Gollum's song at the end of TTT eerily talks about being lost, and here we see that Sam and Frodo may make it through as with each other, neither is lost. And we will see and hear Sam say something similar later in the movie, but at that time he won't be treading stalks…

And is this cornfield flat or on a hillside? Looking over Sam’s shoulder, it appears slanted. Looking towards Frodo, it appears flat.

No! It's Merry and Pippin trampling though the cornfield. Can't anyone hear? Pippin comes off not only as a thief but also a glutton. No sympathy being generated for this character. And later, when Gandalf hears of this merry meeting as they all are sitting around in Minas Tirith at the beginning of the Fourth Age, he will say surely something like, “and you were meant to crash into Sam and Frodo…” Farmer Maggot as the hand of Eru.

And did you notice the sun disappearing and reappearing behind Frodo?

We then have four hobbits caterwauling over the hillside, which looked like a cliff but I guess that it really wasn't - as the real fall would have killed them all. Pippin's near miss is a real miss, joke-wise. What is it with PJ, short persons and slapstick? Wow! Those are some dirty feet. It never hit me until now how dirty these shoeless travelers must be. The book hobbits always washed their feet thrice daily (that’s how I read it, though without my books I won’t be able to provide a source ). Finally we see a mysterious vegetable – the carrot. Get a good look, as a cousin of this carrot is going to play an important part in plot development in a few minutes. And of course you caught the cleverly added chapter title from the book.

Luckily we get back to some more seriousness as 'something' is coming down the road, as sensed by Frodo. The mist further down the trail, the mottled sunlight, the use of the camera lens and a leaf blower (or whatever) to distort the scenery - nothing overdone here to set up that something wicked this way comes. As the hobbits hide like little children playing, we glimpse a bit more clearly what is riding those black horses. To me, this is a better thrill than the beheading or the Gandalf-grab. You hear the horse's footfalls before seeing it. The Black Rider doesn't jump off the horse, or slither down the tree; it dismounts noisily (all of that metal armor) and starts sniffing for Frodo. There’s a build-up, and that's cool. Nice camera angle when the camera rotates groundward. Makes the Nazgul appear even larger. Children and the boogeyman, that’s what I see.

One nitpick here – does the horse pass behind the right side of the tree? To me it looks like the horse appears to the left of the tree magically.

The grey metal gauntleted hand above the hobbits has sharp pointy edges. Now just where did we just see something like that recently? PJ states that he added the bugs and arachnids to the scene in order to show that even these were fearful of this Nazgul. Initially when I saw the scene, however, I thought that the insects weren't fleeing but just trying to creep the hobbits out so that they would betray themselves.

Sam helps Frodo defy the siren song of the Ring, and this puts off the Nazgul somewhat. The pack or whatever thrown by Merry confounds the creature even more...which seems a bit silly. Must have been sunny and 12 PM (hope that I don’t have to explain that).

Now we finally get to some chills. Darkness always helps the boogeyman. The Nazgul hunt the hobbits in the fog-lit forest. I can just taste the adrenaline rush. We see that Merry does have a serious helpful side with his suggestion to cross the river at the Buckleberry Ferry – and I think that he knows something of Frodo and the Ring, just like in the books. Pippin yells for the four to hit the dirt, which he said more than loud enough. We see the silhouette of the Nazgul stalking horse, which I think was a desktop picture or screensaver. Note that the Nazgul you fear is better than the Black Rider you...hmm. Or was it where the Nazgul prows the… Anyway, think that shortly we’re all going to realize that there are more than one of these creatures.

Bam! We get one of those standard 'jump out at you' thrills as a Black Rider finds the hobbits. Now, you'd think that as it senses the Ring, it's night, the bearer is a foot or two away that it could have accomplished a little more than stamping about nonsensically. Was Merry tossing luggage in the bushes, which as we all know disorients these creatures? Note to Nazgul: Next time you find yourself spinning in circles trying to figure out which of four hobbits to trample, just behead one (you know how…), and your decision will be simpler. Repeat as necessary.

Now this is nitpicky, but a horse cannot keep pace with hobbits? And was that Frodo yelping as he falls off of the fence? Where's that "don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee” now when you really need it?

That's Elijah Wood doing the leap onto the barge.

So we've made it to the safety of Bree. The hobbits get their first taste of Tallsville, and they're really none too sure that it a good place to be. Ouch! The PJ cameo. Was that carrot colorized so that it stood out from the scenery? As the hobbits stand at Barliman's desk, the 'big guy' walks by like nothing's happening, yet there was some subtle size trickery there.

Yes, Frodo gives the name "Underhill." Okay. So what? He could have said anything, like Gamgee, or even Baggins. Sure, this declaration later would not allow Frodo to attempt to stop Pippin's faux pas, but surely we could have worked something out. And Barliman knowing the hobbit's name is one thing, but the ill-favored looking man that Pippin found as a friend? It’s Pippin, and even if one were nameless, odorless, invisible, etc, the Pip would find some way to sabotage the plan. It’s in his blood.

And wasn't Pippin paying attention when Frodo said that he was Mr. Underhill? Didn’t they just try to enter Bree stealthily? See what I mean?

But Gandalf hasn't arrived, which is a surprise and letdown to Frodo but not to us, as we know that he’s on his way to the Orthanc penthouse. And how does this tie into some of Gandalf's first words about being neither early nor late? If he were late coming to Bilbo's birthday then couldn’t he also be late meeting Frodo? It might have been more of an event if we thought that Gandalf was there.

Never take a Ring of Power to an inn where patrons keep weasels as pets. Or black cats.

Again we have Frodo comforting Sam regarding Gandalf’s arrival. But before we get too serious there’s the “Fun with Measures” Pippin and Merry show. And who would have thought that there were so many interesting words regarding volumes? Pip is at it again; are we sure that he’s on our side? If only he could become a wraith so that the Nazgul could benefit from his tomfoolery.

One thing about the Prancing Pony is all of the little and big hand-made artifacts lying around. The mugs etc are real, and so the place looks lived in, not some plasticky set.

Before we learn of the mysterious stranger in the corner, I just wanted to note that Merry and his pint were seated across from Sam when Pippin goes off for his own. When the innkeeper speaks with Frodo, Merry is now across from Frodo. A big deal? Not at all. Just another example of the Pippin effect.

So Strider is one of those Rangers. We get a pipe bowl-lit glimpse of his non-fair face. Didn’t think that he was one of those Black Riders. But before we see more of Strider, we have to watch Frodo become stupid and twirl the One Ring under the table. I guess in Westron the words, “Keep it hidden, keep it safe,” exclude fondling an object of great power and possibly the key to the end of the age in a public room. Every time Frodo goes hazy I just want to reach out and give him a shake.

Now, if there were five Nazgul sitting across from Frodo, feigning to play Texas Hold’em but actually chanting for Frodo to put on the Ring, I could understand what was going on. But as far as we know, the Nazgul are miles distant, and so what possesses Frodo to act so stupidly?

It has to be the weasel or Pippin. Or the carrot.

The close-up of Elijah’s hands beg the question – does he bite his nails? And what’s with the man with the dribble mug? But Frodo’s trance is broken as he hears his name. Thanks Pip. Why don’t you just hold me while the men at the bar rob us? Cousin Frodo, not knowing the inherent power of stupidity, attempts to stop Pippin from making more declarations. Pow! And Frodo goes earthward as the Ring sails overhead, and then, as luck would have it, the Ring would jump onto his finger. And into a hole in the floor goes Frodo.

No cows jumping over the moon here.

Suddenly the Nazgul are aware of the Ringed Frodo. Hello! And Frodo seems to be in a shadow world of wind. Not exactly as I pictured the invisible world, but it works as it’s not a nice place to be – there’s a price to pay for wearing the Ring. And something else sees Frodo now.

The voice of Sauron here is a bit too clear. I would think that it should be more Andy Serkis Nazgul-like, or a BOOM! shock speaker-melting voice of a Maia who hopes to straddle the continent. And now we see the Eye of Sauron, close up. Hey, who let the eye in the bar? Now, I know that as this is the first time that Frodo puts on the Ring, and since Bilbo left Bag End less than an hour ago that Sauron has increased in power, but to have the Eye introduced here so overwhelmingly (and then not again) is a little much. Was there a more toned-down approach to making the Eye connection without going full screen?

And “I see you” stated by a large fiery eye? Need I state the obvious?

Frodo struggles through the immaterial inn as the Eye talks to him – can’t make out the words. He removes the Ring and reaches the safety of the visible world. Or so he thinks. Frodo is grabbed away, and then we see that it’s that Strider guy manhandling him out of the bar and up the steps. Thought that a disappearing hobbit would have resulted in more clamor.

I like this next scene – Strider barely visible under his hood, tension, verbal sparing…We learn that Rangers cannot be seen if they so desire. Special abilities; not your average person here. Strider ups the thrill by saying that he knows what hunts the Ringbearer. But before we hear more, the other three hobbits rush to the rescue.

No, no, no! And I was liking this scene too. What is Aragorn doing with an unbroken sword? And didn’t his keen senses note that it was three hobbits at the door and not Nazgul or squint-eyed southerners? And Merry has a stout heart, not Sam – well, Sam does, but…

Strider states that “they’re coming.” We’ll hear this line later in the movie when more than Nazgul are approaching. Does PJ practice ‘conservation’ of dialogue for a reason? The gatekeeper is ridden flat, and the Nazgul burst in on Bree like the four horsemen of the Dagor Dagorath. And they enter the inn as Barliman mutters hiding in the corner. Trip them, you fool!

Speaking of fooling, did anyone think that the hobbits were about to receive acupuncture, Mordor-style? In the books, was it the wraiths or their henchpersons that attacked the beds? But I assume that the cutting back and forth between the beds and the hobbits in their bed tents (just how does one place covers over one’s head so that you have a foot or two of empty space?) works for those who don’t know what is about to happen.

You see Aragorn sitting, looking out the window, and you can just read it in his eyes, “I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night. And this night too.”

Nothing makes Nazgul scream like down. If only it came in barrels…

Finally some information on these Black Riders. I love Viggo’s narration over the images of the Nazgul. It works for me – information via the ear while I get to see eye candy. A little gem from PJ to us. And it continues for a while. Did you see Bree in the background as the hobbits and Strider come up onto the plateau. And there’s Bill! We’re getting back to the book. And there’s another gem – “…feel fouler.” Strider hears the hobbits’ conversation, yet doesn’t jump in right away. He lets them air their grievances and concerns. Again PJ has great scenery shots, where we see the troop traveling on to Rivendell.

More fun with Pippin. Does he have a tapeworm?

There are those apples again. Pippin gets hit with one deservedly. And now on to the Midgewater Marshes. Just like I pictured the place. Aragorn supplies the piranha-spawned hobbits with venison, and I couldn’t believe that this was shown as it may offend vegetarians and those who don’t favor hunting. The hobbits sitting around a non-existent fire with Bill in the background looks like a scene out of a Western movie. The scene looks a bit fake too. But at least we get to hear Aragorn singing, and Frodo clues us in to the content. Tinúviel, an elf wed to a mortal, dies. Think that not only was this scene drawn from the books, but also it may have added some information, however small, regarding the fate of Arwen.

As the hobbits sleep, and Aragorn keeps watch, the Moon overhead travels across Middle Earth, and it sees many things down below. Maybe it sees that traitor Saruman, and what he’s up to. And maybe, just maybe that same Moon sees the Grey Wizard.

Special off-topic update: here are a few pictures of the new addition. Be warned; proud father alert.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg brother.JPG (74.3 KB, 361 views)
File Type: jpg sister_one.JPG (73.3 KB, 338 views)
File Type: jpg sister_two.JPG (53.5 KB, 337 views)
File Type: jpg three.JPG (30.3 KB, 356 views)
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

Last edited by alatar; 11-16-2005 at 09:42 AM.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 01:13 AM   #2
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quite a comprehensive post, Sir alatar! Insightful, humorous, and extremely observant too, I might add. No time at the moment for a long post, but I thought I'd toss in a few quick impressions and comments:

The Eye's dialogue (it's in the subtitles) is, "There is no life in the Void. Only death." Put that together with, "I see you.", and one might get the impression that movie Sauron isn't the sort of guy who could hold up his end of a conversation very well.

The design in this sequence is fantastic. I love the Nazgűl armor, though I might have wished for less uniformity in their costumes and weaponry. I like how their horses don't sound quite like normal horses -- though watching the sequence just now they made me think of Star Wars tauntauns. I love Aragorn's costume, and while I'm at it I really like Viggo in the part. He looks like a man who's put a few hard miles on the old odometer -- far superior to Stuart Townsend, who originally had the part. The shot of his pipe illuminating his eyes is one of my favorites in the trilogy. Love the landscapes, especially during the Strider/hobbits travel montage, and I like that they managed to get a little singing, which is such a big part of Tolkien, into the EE.

The biggest problem I have with the sequence by far is the introduction of woozy Elijah (with the blazing full-screen Eye and all that it implies close behind). I'll get to those when I have more time.

Oh, and by the way, that's a heck of good looking clan you've got there! Cute as buttons, every one. Compliments to you and Mrs. alatar.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 03:53 AM   #3
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
No! It's Merry and Pippin trampling though the cornfield. Can't anyone hear? Pippin comes off not only as a thief but also a glutton. No sympathy being generated for this character. And later, when Gandalf hears of this merry meeting as they all are sitting around in Minas Tirith at the beginning of the Fourth Age, he will say surely something like, “and you were meant to crash into Sam and Frodo…” Farmer Maggot as the hand of Eru.
First use of coincidence in the film, as we do not have the Conspiracy unmasked as 1/ Frodo keeps the ring locked away in his chest and 2/ no gap of 17 years for the hobbits to work too much out about the Ring.


Quote:
We then have four hobbits caterwauling over the hillside, which looked like a cliff but I guess that it really wasn't - as the real fall would have killed them all. Pippin's near miss is a real miss, joke-wise. What is it with PJ, short persons and slapstick?
It’s called lightening the mood and then BAM! PJ heightens the tension straight away with the Nazgul. And this leads onto….

Quote:
Luckily we get back to some more seriousness as 'something' is coming down the road, as sensed by Frodo
This also shows the more ‘mature’ character of Frodo which a lot of people say is missing in this film (which I disagree with). The other younger hobbits ‘mucking about’ while Frodo stands apart, looking for trouble.


Quote:
Sam helps Frodo defy the siren song of the Ring, and this puts off the Nazgul somewhat. The pack or whatever thrown by Merry confounds the creature even more...which seems a bit silly.
remember the nazgul could not SEE too well, and used their other senses to compensate didn’t they. i.e. Hearing – so this works fine.


Quote:
Note to Nazgul: Next time you find yourself spinning in circles trying to figure out which of four hobbits to trample, just behead one (you know how…), and your decision will be simpler. Repeat as necessary.
wouldn’t the nazgul want to take the bearer of the Ring alive, back to Mordor to be questioned/tortured/slowly killed by Sauron?


Quote:
Now this is nitpicky, but a horse cannot keep pace with hobbits?
Running through trees in the dark, with an almost blind nazgul after them? Sounds feasible to me. And what an amazing shot of the nazgul on the horse bearing down on Frodo as he runs towards the ferry.


Quote:
And wasn't Pippin paying attention when Frodo said that he was Mr. Underhill? Didn’t they just try to enter Bree stealthily? See what I mean?
yes, and pretty much taken from the book. We had pippin loudly talking about Bilbo baggins’s party – not quite ‘baggins is over there’ but close


Quote:
But before we see more of Strider, we have to watch Frodo become stupid and twirl the One Ring under the table. Every time Frodo goes hazy I just want to reach out and give him a shake….. But as far as we know, the Nazgul are miles distant, and so what possesses Frodo to act so stupidly?
We need to show Frodo being affected by the Ring, and without a narrator’s voice, how do we do this? I think this bit works superbly well. He is not doing this CONSIOUSLY therefore he is not being stupid.


Quote:
The close-up of Elijah’s hands beg the question – does he bite his nails?
I remember something about PJ doing this on purpose – i.e. movie Frodo DOES bite his nails.


Quote:
Cousin Frodo, not knowing the inherent power of stupidity, attempts to stop Pippin from making more declarations. Pow! And Frodo goes earthward as the Ring sails overhead, and then, as luck would have it, the Ring would jump onto his finger. And into a hole in the floor goes Frodo.
pretty much like the book except we don’t have the Song. And, as mentioned in the text of the book in Bree, Frodo felt - “For a moment he wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.”


Quote:
Now, I know that as this is the first time that Frodo puts on the Ring, and since Bilbo left Bag End less than an hour ago that Sauron has increased in power, but to have the Eye introduced here so overwhelmingly (and then not again) is a little much.
Yep, as mentioned in previous sequence posts, we have the first BIG inconsistency in the movie here.


Quote:
Speaking of fooling, did anyone think that the hobbits were about to receive acupuncture, Mordor-style? In the books, was it the wraiths or their henchpersons that attacked the beds? But I assume that the cutting back and forth between the beds and the hobbits in their bed tents (just how does one place covers over one’s head so that you have a foot or two of empty space?) works for those who don’t know what is about to happen.
this was no doubt a homage to the Ralph baski version – it’s almost a direct copy of the scene from the cartoon lotr.


Quote:
I love Viggo’s narration over the images of the Nazgul. It works for me – information via the ear while I get to see eye candy. A little gem from PJ to us.
yeah, that line ‘Sauron the deceiver’ taken from the Silmarillion. Brilliant. Although I can’t help hearing viggo’s voice fall back to American (or at least mid atlantic) in this scene. A bit off putting.


Quote:
Did you see Bree in the background as the hobbits and Strider come up onto the plateau.
I thought it might be Archet myself.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 05:55 AM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,042
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

I wanted to point out one little thing before I go back and watch the rest of the sequences. But, I noticed another nifty little thing Jackson and Co. added to the movies. Here's another comparison picture...



Frodo and Gollum are both trapped in the Ring. Though Frodo is not fully inside the ring. He's only about half-way covered by the Ring, so it shows already that he's getting taken over by the Ring. However, he's not to the extent of Gollum as he is fully encompassed in the Ring. His fate lies with that of the Ring, the Ring has total control over him, and there is no more chance of being saved. He is "encircled" in the Ring. Where Frodo is only partially at this point in Bree.
__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 08:59 AM   #5
Holbytlass
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Holbytlass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Party Tree
Posts: 1,096
Holbytlass has just left Hobbiton.
Very quickly, I'd like to gripe a little about how Merry and Pippin joined the adventure. My juvenile humor does like what was shown, them being the youthful scamps that they are (especially since the 17 years have not been portrayed) stealing vegetables from Farmer Maggot, with Sam saying his name, a little gem for the book readers.

All of a sudden they're along for the ride. Which brings me to my little gripe, wouldn't Merry and Pippin's families wonder where they are? At least in the books, because of the conspirarcy, they probably let their families know they might be going on a trip or at least there was Fatty Bolger to let them know where Merry and Pip went.

I can imagine poor (movie) Farmer Maggot being on trial for the disappearance of Merry and Pippin.
Prosecutor: You were always threatening these lads with your scythe, you finally made good on your threat!
Defense Attorney: If there are no dead bodies to see, you must set him free!

More later on.....
Boromir, I love the picture comparisons you bring up.
Alatar, beautiful children, again congratulations.
__________________
Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII
Holbytlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 10:00 AM   #6
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Essex, great post as always. Just a few thoughts, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
wouldn’t the nazgul want to take the bearer of the Ring alive, back to Mordor to be questioned/tortured/slowly killed by Sauron?
It's possible, and I don't know how it was portrayed in the books, but in the last sequence didn't Saruman just tell Gandalf that the Nazgul would kill the bearer and take the Ring? Is this true, or was Saruman just trying to scare Gandalf?

Quote:
We need to show Frodo being affected by the Ring, and without a narrator’s voice, how do we do this? I think this bit works superbly well. He is not doing this CONSIOUSLY therefore he is not being stupid.
It just seems a bit silly and inconsistent. The Nazgul have been in pursuit and in the area since Sam and Frodo leave Bag End. With the exception of the scene where the Nazgul is practically parting Frodo's hair with his nose, not once before has Frodo been so affected. Think that it could have been done better.

Quote:
Although I can’t help hearing viggo’s voice fall back to American (or at least mid atlantic) in this scene. A bit off putting.
it's a well-known fact that Rangers hail from New York . And PJ was just being faithful to the text, as even book Frodo notices that Aragorn's accent/voice changes as they discuss the situation in the hobbit's room.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 10:50 AM   #7
Kath
Everlasting Whiteness
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams
Posts: 4,510
Kath is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Kath is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via MSN to Kath
Quote:
The close-up of Elijah’s hands beg the question – does he bite his nails?
Yes he does

Quote:
All of a sudden they're along for the ride. Which brings me to my little gripe, wouldn't Merry and Pippin's families wonder where they are? At least in the books, because of the conspirarcy, they probably let their families know they might be going on a trip or at least there was Fatty Bolger to let them know where Merry and Pip went.
But then, Merry is a Brandybuck and Pippin is a Took. We are always hearing of the strange things members of those families get up to in the books so parents or relatives might just assume they were off on a foolhardy adventure, especially since they are a double-act. Also, Farmer Maggott has presumably seen them and will have a nice little gripe to their relations, who would then likely think that they were off somewhere to stay out of trouble.

Quote:
It's possible, and I don't know how it was portrayed in the books, but in the last sequence didn't Saruman just tell Gandalf that the Nazgul would kill the bearer and take the Ring? Is this true, or was Saruman just trying to scare Gandalf?
I should say trying to scare Gandalf, maybe as a last ditch attempt to get him to join him and help. It says in the books I'm sure that Sauron wanted him alive, and in fact, Saruman wants him alive, he tells the orcs to bring any hobbits they find 'alive and unspoiled'.

I do like a lot of this next sequence. Bits of it are close to the book, like using Mr Underhill as a fake name, and Pippin accidentally ruining the plot (which I think works, and an excuse for him can be that he was drunk, especially since he was on 'pints' now). The introduction of Aragorn I liked, though not for a second did I think he was evil, and then the continuing scenes with him were good, because again they got closer to the book - Bill, the apples, the 'look foul and feel fair' bit with Aragorn of course hearing every word. I did love that bit, it was one of the well placed bits of humour, not obvious or over the top, just funny.

Oh, and the first encounter with the Nazgul was a great moment. So the horse can magically shorten its body enough to hide behind a tree - the creepiness that oozed from the screen was absolutely right. And as someone said, the later shot of a Nazgul bearing down on Frodo really made you feel scared, or scared for Frodo and the Quest.
__________________
Great udders of disappointment!
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 10:55 AM   #8
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
One of my grips about this sequence again comes down to the passing of time. Is is just me or does anybody else think that Bree is just a lesuirely jaunt from the other side of the Brandywine? The indication we get that some time passed is the fact that it is raining. A 30 second segment to show that there is some travel involved would be helpful.

I think PJ begins to use a bit too much humor in these sequence too. I would find it sufficient to have the one bit of humor after falling off the cliff and Merry 'thinks he's broken something', we really don't need to see horse excrement that Pippin nearly landed in then hear Merry. I understand what Essex stated about lightening the mood but seeing animal dung really isn't humorous except on a low-brow level perhaps.

A humorous mistake is seen when Pippin is whinning about not having 20 meals a day when travelling and Strider throw him the second apple. The apple hits Pip in the right side and a split second later the same apple is seen in Pippin's left hand (the apple was not there previous) either it was and incredible cross-body catch or a minor, yet comical mistake.

Some of these have already been said but I would like to add my list.
  • Wonderful scenery
  • I loved the whole Strider sequence, he looks exactly how I imagine though I can't watch it now without thinking of TORE's avatar
  • The Nazgul look great, even though they are a bit buffonish in being feet away and not getting their hobbit
  • The Nazgul scream is similar to how I imagined in the book--harsh and high pitched.

I am sad that the conspiracy never happened but I understand the need to rush things along and get out of the shire without longer delay.

One thing the we haven't discussed yet is the absence of Bombadil. I think that most all agree that it was necissary to forgo his inclusion whether you like him or not. I like the old coot but agree that this would be far too confusing and time consuming to include in the movie.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 11:30 AM   #9
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Oh my god! How could I forget Old Bombadil! I would have remembered if I#d listened to the commentaries. One of the things that 'annoyed' me once I'd seen TT was that Phillipa Boyens says that 'just imagine that the hobbits DID meet bomadil' just that they didn;t show it.

Now a couple of things - ok, so Aragorn gives them some swords to use - that shouldnlt happen, but in TT when pippin's talking to merry when they're captured by the orcs and near fangorn - pippin speaks about 'remember the stories about the old forest and trees that could move' - they wouldn't have been old stories if the hobbits had been through and eaten by old man willow!!!!!!!!!!! and anyway, in rotk ee, they get eaten by old man willow again!!!!! what dumb luck!

anyway, to me bombadil is one of the KEY characters of lotr, not just a throw away. It shows that not EVERYONE is suceptible to the Ring, and indeed is not changed by the Ring. He could also see Frodo when he wore the Ring.

But, and most importantly of all, the Quest would have failed totally if they did not go through the old forest and meet bombadil. I've mentioned this umpteen times on bombadil threads, but if Merry hadn't got his numenorean sword to help slay the witch king, then Game Over for Middle-earth. (domino effect)

I would have really have loved to have seen the bombadil scenes - we didn't need to see his hey doll merry doll neccesarily, but at least show him - and imagine the scenes in the Barrow with the sword against the hobbits' necks...........
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 11:41 AM   #10
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
But, and most importantly of all, the Quest would have failed totally if they did not go through the old forest and meet bombadil. I've mentioned this umpteen times on bombadil threads, but if Merry hadn't got his numenorean sword to help slay the witch king, then Game Over for Middle-earth. (domino effect)
A safe assumption here is that the sword given to Merry is of Numenorean decent.

I really don't see Bombadil as a necissary character for the movies. He seems to be confusing enough to many of the people who read the books let alone adding such an enigma to the movie. The Fellowship is the one movie where time was pressing enough that parts couldn't be sacrificed to make room for Bombadil. Plus, he's not really a pivotal character. The movie story is much more cohesive without him. I would like to have seen the hobbits travelling through the old forest then coming to the main road to enter Bree, like I said earlier, this would have shown some time passing and given an idea of distance. But to include Tom would just convolute the story and confuse too many viewers.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 02:03 PM   #11
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
One of my favourite parts in the books was the appearance of Aragorn. I remember reading it and thinking "ooh, who's this strange man then?" ...and a lifetime of 'gorn fandom was born. So i was excited as to how they would introduce him in the film. I have to say that I did like the way they achieved this - and they made nice use of the tobacco in his pipe glowing red, contained within...a ring. Though something I've always been fascinated by was missing, the entrance of the dark figure who slips over the gate.

I liked the look of Bree in the sequence, but I was disappointed that they laid on the sinister aspect with a shovel, as I've always thought of Bree to be an extremely friendly place, just with some odd customers at the pub. I noted that there were no other Hobbits in the pub either.

I did laugh watching it on freeze frame as it appears Isildur is walking down the street hidden under one of those cloaks. Is it Aragorn? And is he standing at the bar smoking when the Hobbits walk in?

As for the dropping of Frodo's song and the real reason he ended up wearing the ring, I have to admit I'm disappointed but not at all surprised. In general, Frodo in the films is played as 'intense Frodo', and his one moment of silliness looks very silly, his dancing at Bilbo's party. We know that Frodo was a light hearted and lovable Hobbit, with dreams, but not a permanent look of a 'rabbit caught in headlights' - he could have fun just as much as any other Hobbit. Here we get a Frodo who does not have much fun; all the instances of fun causing trouble seem to go to Pippin.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 02:50 PM   #12
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
I liked the look of Bree in the sequence, but I was disappointed that they laid on the sinister aspect with a shovel, as I've always thought of Bree to be an extremely friendly place, just with some odd customers at the pub. I noted that there were no other Hobbits in the pub either.
Agreed, Bree is made out to be rather unfriendly but I believe it to be an attempt to show yet again what trouble our band of 4 little hobbits are in. They have now left the cozy, and very green and peaceful Shire, and entered the big mean world that is far from the Shire and nowhere near as desirable. I'm not sure that making Bree this way is the best way to go or not. I would have liked to see a little bit warmer side of Bree. It's one of those havens that the hobbits find in the wilderness that can offer some protection. While not a Rivendell or Lothlorien, it is a little bastion of civility in which they find good food and shelter. This would have been another reason why they should have a brief segment of the 4 hobbits alone travelling through the forest. To show their plight, with a brief respite then back into peril in the wilderness.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 09:59 PM   #13
Elladan and Elrohir
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
Elladan and Elrohir has just left Hobbiton.
The appearance of the Black Rider is terrific, till Merry tosses the veggies -- just a tad unbelievable for my tastes, and my extensive knowledge of the inner working of Nazgul minds.

Love the Howard Shore score throughout this scene. Not sure that I like Merry and Pippin's dumbing down, but it is almost the sole source of comic relief in this film, plus they do grow spiritually in TT and ROTK, so all in all I'm not mad at PJ.

Bree is significantly more menacing and forboding than in the books. No hobbits to be seen besides our fearsome foursome (the only indication that there are any hobbits in Bree comes with the two peepholes at the gate), it's pouring down rain, everyone seems to be wearing black clothing, and PJ's belching in your face as you walk down the street. Yep, sounds like a jolly place. But I guess it serves its purpose in the film.

Strider was awesome. That was THE moment, first watching the film, when I thought, "This is going to be awesome." They absolutely nailed his first appearance. I took one look and was like, "Now THAT is Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar Telcontar, Envinyatar the Renewer, Estel the Hope of the Dunedain, Captain of the Rangers of the North, Heir of Isildur, etc., etc."

The setting out on the next stage of the Quest is rather abrupt -- the long drawn-out conversation and argument from the book, where Frodo finally decides to trust Strider, is completely absent. Apparently, we're going with this foul-looking dude because he knows something about them black horse-riding thingies, and oh yeah, because a spy of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler. Frodo said it in the book, so it must apply to this dude.

And I thought the Lay of Leithian quote was a cool touch. I think they do a fantastic job with Elvish in the movies!
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING
Elladan and Elrohir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2005, 10:07 PM   #14
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Woozy Elijah
I was surprised to see them go this extreme this soon with the whole "the Ring is controlling me!", eyes rolling back bit. To me, it's the least interesting interpretation possible, and going this far with it so early on leaves Elijah without anywhere to go later as the Ring's power waxes in Mordor. davem's excellent comments about the nature of evil in Tolkien in the Sequence 4 thread are still appropriate here: in Jackson's adaptation, the Ring is something that just takes over your mind, it's an overpowering outside force. Frodo never seems to have any real choice in the matter, which wipes out the complex ambiguity and psychological depth of how the Ring works in the books.

Now I know this is a movie here and we're not gonna get all of that complexity and subtlety in, but I would have liked at least a suggestion of it. Ironically, the screenplay is closer to what I would have liked to have seen -- when the Nazgűl is thrown off track by the mushrooms Merry hurls, "Frodo is staring, a look of shock on his face at the ring lying in the palm of his hand."


Bombadil
I can hardly imagine Bombadil in PJ's hands -- he'd have the Master belching loudly at dinner with Goldberry and dribbling mead down his face from a giant dribble-mug, no doubt. Let's face it, Bombadil would be tough to put on film in anyone's hands. Keeping that in mind, and sticking with the theme of abridgement over compression, the decision to cut Bombadil, the Barrow-downs, the Old Forest, and even poor Fatty Bolger is one that I can fully get behind, much as I would have liked to have seen the Barrow-wight his ownself running rampant on the Downs.

I don't have much trouble with the idea that the blades Aragorn gives to the hobbits are of Numenorean descent, and in any case the bit about Merry and the Witch-king and the Numenorean-charmed blade isn't even brought out in the films.

Although Bombadil does add some nice thematic depth to the Ring's story, I wouldn't say it's crucial; or at least I'd say there are a lot of other higher-priority Ring themes which I think might have been fixed before I ever got down the list to old Tom.


Timeline Issues
Here's one that bothers me: the scene about second breakfast (elevenses, luncheon, etc.). As a bit of comic relief I don't mind it, it's when it happens that bugs me, namely, at the end of a travel montage which looks like it lasts many days. Wouldn't they know that Strider doesn't pause every two hours for a meal within, well, two hours of leaving Bree? I'm laughing at that scene at the beginning of the montage; at the end, where it is, I'm sort of annoyed at the lack of attention to detail.

Also, it's worth noting how easily the impression of the passage of time and a lengthy journey is created. This harks back to the problems with the Gandalf travel sequence discussed in the Sequence 3 thread.


Nazgűl
I also dislike the way the Black Rider is so easily thrown off the scent by Merry's tossed pack. I wonder how the placement of the Wood Elves' approach to drive off the Rider, as occurs in the book, would have affected the sequence.

I don't think too much should be made of Nazgűl "blindness" in excusing the way these scenes are staged. Aragorn's explanation of their abilities near Weathertop in Book 1, Chapter 11 makes them out to be pretty capable customers, especially at night, even if they "do not see the world of light as we do".

Besides, the idea of Nazgűl "blindness" is not brought out at all in the films, and non-book audiences have no way of knowing anything about such an idea.


Bree
I agree with those who thought that they laid it on rather thick in Bree. An interesting consequence of making the Pony and all its patrons so threatening is that Strider hardly seems menacing. When Butterbur says his line about how "them Rangers are dangerous folk", I was thinking, Barley, just take a look around the bar! That quiet Ranger in the corner is the least of your worries.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 03:20 AM   #15
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Mr Underhill (and others) your point:
Quote:
I also dislike the way the Black Rider is so easily thrown off the scent by Merry's tossed pack. I wonder how the placement of the Wood Elves' approach to drive off the Rider, as occurs in the book, would have affected the sequence.

I don't think too much should be made of Nazgűl "blindness" in excusing the way these scenes are staged. Aragorn's explanation of their abilities near Weathertop in Book 1, Chapter 11 makes them out to be pretty capable customers, especially at night, even if they "do not see the world of light as we do".
I can't win with you guys. I try to find reasons for things happening in the film from the text, and it still gets brushed aside. The sequence took place during the DAY, and the nazgul do not see the world of light as we do. So if they can't see properly, why not a diversion using Sound? And I'm not bothered whether people who haven't read the books get it or not, it's for book readers to understand the point.

re Merry picking up a numenorean sword from Aragorn (and the film tie in book says he killed the WK with Theoden's sword he had as a child - stupid!)
It's not just a case of saying, ah well the sword aragorn gave him was numenorean. It's as much about the JOURNEY the hobbits take and what they encounter. It's just as important to say how something was found/given. Let's just change the plot to show Aragorn picking up a blade from the side of the road that was Narsil - let's not bother about the history of the blade and it's significance - that's what we are doing here with Merry's blade.

But the one thing I do agree with you guys on is the power of the Ring is TOO MUCH. This just does not work for me. Without bombadil, we are neglecting to show that the power of the Ring is not all over powering. Bombadil can wear it without being affected, and can see Frodo when he wears it - it shows us that Evil cannot totally prevail - but becasue PJ and the scriptwriters have made the ring too powerful, we are not allowed to see this.

Lalwende: re
Quote:
As for the dropping of Frodo's song and the real reason he ended up wearing the ring, I have to admit I'm disappointed but not at all surprised. In general, Frodo in the films is played as 'intense Frodo', and his one moment of silliness looks very silly, his dancing at Bilbo's party. We know that Frodo was a light hearted and lovable Hobbit, with dreams, but not a permanent look of a 'rabbit caught in headlights' - he could have fun just as much as any other Hobbit. Here we get a Frodo who does not have much fun; all the instances of fun causing trouble seem to go to Pippin.
In the book, Frodo does not sing the song 'for fun' - he does it as a diversion to stop Pippin giving the game away - He slips, falls, and the ring myseteriously ends on his finger - In other words, except for the song, it is pretty much the same as the book - It wasn't about Frodo having fun, it's about stopping Pippin putting his foot in it.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 07:38 AM   #16
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,042
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

Quote:
But the one thing I do agree with you guys on is the power of the Ring is TOO MUCH. This just does not work for me. Without bombadil, we are neglecting to show that the power of the Ring is not all over powering. Bombadil can wear it without being affected, and can see Frodo when he wears it - it shows us that Evil cannot totally prevail - but becasue PJ and the scriptwriters have made the ring too powerful, we are not allowed to see this.
I disagree. I don't think Jackson really heightens the power of the ring at all. We do get a several cases (in the movies when the ring's temptation is actually resisted).

Bilbo- giving it up at Bag End
Gandalf- "Don't tempt me Frodo!"
Boromir- On Caradhras= "Give the Ring to Frodo."
Galadriel- "I passed the test."
Faramir- Letting Frodo go. Though he does initially fall, I will argue at the proper time that he was more influenced by his Father than by the Ring.
Sam- Gives Frodo the Ring back in Cirith Ungol

Also, later, what a surprise...I'm going to compare Sam and Boromir as Jackson makes a connection with them and pairs them together throughout the movies.

But, back on track. So, we do have a several instances where the Ring is actually resisted. Though I think it appears that Jackson shows the Ring affecting Frodo (and Boromir too) earlier than I found in the books, I think there are several cases that show the Ring can be resisted and isn't this all-powerful, corrupts everyone force.
__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 08:09 AM   #17
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
re Merry picking up a numenorean sword from Aragorn (and the film tie in book says he killed the WK with Theoden's sword he had as a child - stupid!)
It's not just a case of saying, ah well the sword aragorn gave him was numenorean. It's as much about the JOURNEY the hobbits take and what they encounter. It's just as important to say how something was found/given. Let's just change the plot to show Aragorn picking up a blade from the side of the road that was Narsil - let's not bother about the history of the blade and it's significance - that's what we are doing here with Merry's blade.
In the film I don't see why knowing the history of Merry's sword is important. It seems a minor detail in a sea of information. If we were to explain that it is of Westernese decent who would do it? How long would it take? Would it be more confusing than it is worth? Those are facts and details that make the book wonderful but would just be too much for a cinematic audience to handle, meaning that you need to stick with the core story and small details get left by the wayside. That's the way of it here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
Lalwende: re In the book, Frodo does not sing the song 'for fun' - he does it as a diversion to stop Pippin giving the game away - He slips, falls, and the ring myseteriously ends on his finger - In other words, except for the song, it is pretty much the same as the book - It wasn't about Frodo having fun, it's about stopping Pippin putting his foot in it.
Ah, but he does sing the song the second time for fun.

Quote:
It was now Frodo's turn to feel pleased with himself. He capered about on the table; and when he came a second time to the cow jumped over the Moon, he leaped in the air. Much too vigorously; for he came down, bang, into a tray full of mugs, and slipped and rolled off the table with a crash, clatter, and bump!
So Frodo initially sang to save Pippin from making a mistake but he had so much fun in doing it that he foolishly did it again.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 08:47 AM   #18
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
I disagree. I don't think Jackson really heightens the power of the ring at all. We do get a several cases (in the movies when the ring's temptation is actually resisted).

Bilbo- giving it up at Bag End
Gandalf- "Don't tempt me Frodo!"
Boromir- On Caradhras= "Give the Ring to Frodo."
Galadriel- "I passed the test."
Faramir- Letting Frodo go. Though he does initially fall, I will argue at the proper time that he was more influenced by his Father than by the Ring.
Sam- Gives Frodo the Ring back in Cirith Ungol

Though I think it appears that Jackson shows the Ring affecting Frodo (and Boromir too) earlier than I found in the books, I think there are several cases that show the Ring can be resisted and isn't this all-powerful, corrupts everyone force.
Yes, and if you didn't have most of the above in the movie then you wouldn't have Lord of the Rings! What I mean is that as soon as Frodo puts the Ring on we have an all encompasing force 'seing' him 'I can see you' etc. The only time this is valid (and works well) is when Frodo sits on the seat of seeing, as in the book.

What I mean about it's strength is that as soon as the wearer puts it on (except for bilbo but there you go, it gives us an inconsistency) we have the eye of sauron on top of them. This means that NO WAY can Sam wear the Ring near Cirith Ungol (as Frodo says pretty much to him that they can't wear it anymore in hennuth anun) - so therefore, Sam wasn't a Ring Bearer and didn't follow Frodo in to the West (the Last 'movie' Boat had gone anyway!)

This is what I'm trying to get at, that movie wise the Ring and Sauron's connection to it is too strong, leading us to incosistencies and changes further down the line. And along with Tom, we see someone who doesn't even need to fight temptation - he just puts it on and isn;t effected by it! It also shows us there are simillar (or greater) forces on Middle-earth as well as Sauron, and this would have been great to see in the movie, whether it moved the story along or not.

PS It's funny how us posters with different views on the movies can use the 'move the story along' excuse for both our 'causes'.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 11:08 AM   #19
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
I sympathize with your exasperation, Essex. In a perfect world, I'd definitely love to have the Old Forest, Bombadil, and the Downs up on their feet. Maybe the ideal format for Rings isn't feature movies or even a miniseries, but a full-blown hour drama television series that ran for two or three seasons. Then you could really dig into the story and cover everything.

I like all the reasons you cite for including Bombadil. As a practical matter, though, I can't see what else could go so easily while creating so few story problems. Maybe you have some ideas? How long do you imagine the sequence would have to be in order to do it justice? Do you think Jackson could have pulled off Bombadil? I ask these questions in sincere curiosity. I'd like to hear any ideas you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
What I mean about it's strength is that as soon as the wearer puts it on (except for bilbo but there you go, it gives us an inconsistency) we have the eye of sauron on top of them.
You only brush over the point, but I think it's a valid one -- with Jackson's compressed timeline and pumped up Ring power/Sauron connection, it sort of begs the question of why Bilbo doesn't suddenly have a giant peeper bearing down ("I see you!") when he wears the Ring. I also wonder if Bilbo sees the same scary, windy invisi-world that Frodo does. He seems awfully chipper when he takes the Ring off in Bag End. Maybe he's just become accustomed to how frightening it is through long experience over the years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
I can't win with you guys. I try to find reasons for things happening in the film from the text, and it still gets brushed aside.
It's not about winning or losing -- we can have a talk about the movies without it being a contest. But on the point, if we take the movies as an adaptation on their own terms, there's no very good explanation for why the Black Rider would be so easily fooled. It weakens them, I think. It's like Gandalf yelling at Saruman, "Your shoe is untied!", then scampering out of Orthanc while the Many-Coloured one is distracted. I wonder, since Jackson went to the trouble of shooting the "Wood-Elves", why he didn't use that bit for its proper story purpose.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2005, 11:20 AM   #20
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
But on the point, if we take the movies as an adaptation on their own terms, there's no very good explanation for why the Black Rider would be so easily fooled. It weakens them, I think.
Of course I want the movie as close to the film as possible, so having the wood elves frighten him off would be perfect. but we don't have this unffortunately.

but easily fooled? the black riders need a point of reference. they could tell the Ring was nearby (indeed in the book the first time we see the black rider he rides off without confronting them) but would not know exactly where it was. If they DID know he would have popped around the side of the tree and caught them. They just knew it was in the general area.

Now the SOUND of the bag/fruit crashing in the near didstance WAS A POINT OF REFERENCE for the nearly blind Nazgul - It rushed off in that direction, giving the hobbits time to escape (for now....)


Quote:
Maybe the ideal format for Rings isn't feature movies or even a miniseries, but a full-blown hour drama television series that ran for two or three seasons. Then you could really dig into the story and cover everything.
The unabridged oral versions of the full LOTR take 54 hours. This fits in perfectly with a 3 seasons of 24 episodes each, which taking 15 minutes off for adverts equals 54 hours! perfect, - so I'm writing a screenplay as we speak!!!!!!!!


PS 'I can't win with you guys' - it's just an english saying - not really about winning or losing.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2005, 09:01 PM   #21
Elladan and Elrohir
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
Elladan and Elrohir has just left Hobbiton.
I disagree that Bombadil is necessary to the story. I mean, yes, he shows that SOMEBODY is not affected by the Ring, but why is this important? As Boromir points out, we see people giving up or refusing the Ring numerous times throughout the films. Surely that would suffice. Plus, Bombadil is an extremely unusual exception to a wide-encompassing rule.

Now sure, I like old Tom Bom jolly Tom as much as the next guy, but he flat out does not belong in these films, beyond the small tribute he gets from Treebeard in the TTT EE. We've been over this tons of times, so I won't list the reasons here.

EDIT: I'm not trying to sound arrogant, and rereading my post, I think I did sound like that more than a bit. I apologize. Sometimes I go overboard when trying to make my point. Please ignore my tone and just focus on the argument. Sorry.

And yes, Frodo seeing the Eye while wearing the Ring at the Prancing Pony is a big change with potentially far-reaching implications. So, that begs the question: Does it accomplish its purpose in the movie? And while we're at it, what IS its purpose in the movie? I'll sit back and let you guys answer that before I jump in.
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

Last edited by Elladan and Elrohir; 11-18-2005 at 09:05 PM.
Elladan and Elrohir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2005, 12:39 AM   #22
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
I like this sequence but the one thing that bothered me was the atmosphere of Bree. I had expected a cheerful setting but it turned out to be to menacing for me. I got used to it but I would have liked to see Bree friendly. Of course PJ wanted to prove the point that the Hobbits had now truly left their safe homeland but I don't really buy into that.
I liked the effects used when Frodo sensed the black rider, it certainly gave the feeling that the black rider was approaching quickly. I also didn't mind the whole shortcut to mushrooms since it gives us a bit of trivia about Hobbits and PJ actually managed to use a chapter title, "A Shortcut to Mushrooms"
The little part between Sam and Frodo about "Gandalf told me; Don't you loose him, Samwise Gamgee" works for me, it gets another line from the book into the movie. It shows that Gandalf already sees that Frodo will need help and that Sam is a good candidate for this job. (For lack of better words)
Of course I also really like the entrance of Strider, it makes him so mysterious.
The big eyeball and the "I see you" line might have been cheesy but it worked for me since these kind of things quickly creep me out.(This is a reason why I never watch horror movies)
I really like the shots of the Nazgul especially the one with the light that shines out from behind the tree branches. That shot gives it such a cold, evil and supernatural feel without resorting to some kind of showy magic.
I like it that they put in the midgewater sequence and part of Luthien's lament which Viggo composed.
I don't mind any of the comic scenes all that much although I did notice the iregularity with the apples but I don't see a point in making a big fuss about that.
__________________
Back again
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2005, 09:51 PM   #23
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,488
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
I can't win with you guys. I try to find reasons for things happening in the film from the text, and it still gets brushed aside. The sequence took place during the DAY, and the nazgul do not see the world of light as we do. So if they can't see properly, why not a diversion using Sound? And I'm not bothered whether people who haven't read the books get it or not, it's for book readers to understand the point.
Starting posting to this thought, then got pulled into the "Is Eru God?" thread.

Anyway, let's back away for a moment and consider what we're doing here. We're watching sets of scenes (actually the entire movie in smaller bites) of the Peter Jackson film interpretation of JRRT's LotR, then discussing our thoughts, impressions, likes, dislikes, etc. To me part of the 'task,' if it can be thought of as such, is to get into the mind of PJ et al and see why they created the movies that they did. They assumedly read for the same books that you and I have read. I have my interpretatons of them; others see them vastly different in some instances. Likewise these movies.

But what I'm trying to fish out is the mindset, the game plan, the playbook.

Each frame in this movie is here for a reason. Each thing from the books that isn't here was removed for a reason. These reasons could be:
  • cost
  • pacing
  • different interpretation
  • different understanding/lack of understanding
  • fans
  • general audience
  • shock
  • accident/error
  • etc..

For example, as stated almost ad nauseum by me, I was uncomfortable with Gandalf sneaking up and grabbing Frodo. Who cares? No one, even me, ran out of the theater at that moment saying, "I want my money back!" Really, I don't even care that much. But what I deduced from that was that the PJ team would sacrifice character for thrill.

Okay, that's his way of doing things, and so we might see it again.

Another example is the Eye. PJ wanted Sauron as the Eye introduced early in FotR and so we get the scene in Bree. Again I wasn't writing letters addressed to New Zealand after seeing the Eye, but what I think that we deduced was that PJ is more concerned with keeping Sauron in the picture than with logic. Note: if this hasn't already been stated, the appearance of the Eye is between Saruman bookends. "The White Wizard isn't the only baddie here, don't forget!"

And my last example is the Nazgul chase. First, the Nazgul is easily distracted. Next, the wraith on horse cannot harm any of the four Hobbits (even with a harsh word like "He-Hobbit!" ). So to me the result is watered down Nazgul, and we'll see why that this (assumedly) was decided when we get to Weathertop.

Anyway, I'm guessing that the above makes sense only to me, and when I read this tomorrow even I won't know what I was trying to say. But in short, I'm enjoying the SbS and all (yes, all) of your thoughts immensely, and I look forward each week to writing each new thread (EDIT) and reading your posts.

EDIT: Knew that the brain would kick in today. Anyway, thought to add that all of the reasons/considerations listed above had to be weighed against the others to determine the best for the film - not just for PJ, not just for us fans, but the best for ...well...I'm not really sure.

For example, assume that PJ had considered putting Tom Bombadil into FotR, or even FotR:EE. Surely he would have delighted the "tommaniacs," but might have put off not only other less interested viewers but also those amongst his own staff who were frantic just trying to get the reduced version out of the door ("Just how does he expected us to include this character when we cannot distill Tom's character into one word?"). And why would he add a character who gets his own scene when this same character does not 'come back' in the end, even in the books?

So, PJ might have thought that Tom just wasn't worth the headaches, resources, etc. In this instance he and I would agree.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

Last edited by alatar; 11-20-2005 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Brain more engaged.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 05:39 PM   #24
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
I think I know what you are trying to say, alatar. It all makes sense to me and I think it would be silly if I wrote to producers because I didn't like the way the eye was portrayed.
Although, I didn't think they had to get the eye in the scene at Bree I do see that they have to introduce the true enemy sometime. Maybe they should have waited till Amon Hen but at that time people might already have forgotten about Sauron. I'm simply speculating but that is what makes these threads funfor me. I just like to speculate on the reason why PJ did certain things or not.
__________________
Back again
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2005, 04:27 PM   #25
Holbytlass
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Holbytlass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Party Tree
Posts: 1,096
Holbytlass has just left Hobbiton.
A couple of PJ decisions, most are minor and that in itself makes me wonder why it was changed in the first place. These changes didn't even seem to be important for PJ's storyline.

Sam said "what do they live on when they can't get hobbit?" in the book (midgewater marshes), why was it changed to Merry? Was it filling up a 'certain number of lines' clause in his contract?

In the book, Strider said something about him hunting if he had to, but that would take up too much time, so tighten belts and think of Elrond's tables. Why was this bit put in showing Strider appearently got a deer for the starving hobbits? Was it to show Strider is really a good guy and takes care of them?

Both are rather pointless so why spend the energy (thought process) and/or the expenditure doing it?

In the Inn, when the ring jumps onto Frodo's finger I like the look of the shadow world, I would keep the scene the same except don't actually show the 'eye'. Sauron's voice has already been established so the audience will (should) recognise it, and it's far scarier imagining what is terrifying Frodo (and seeing him) than actually seeing it for ourselves.

A bit disappointed not to see Elijah Wood doing the "Man over the Moon" song.

Strider-glad it was kept to the book of him being mysterious in the corner. Interesting bit of change to Strider having "a quiet word" with Frodo in the room. Why did he shove him down?

The blackriders, what nightmares are made of. Coincidently, FOTR was the first movie I saw when my local theatre built stadium seating and up-to-date surround sound (which they insist on having at highest level). Their scream terrified me!! My spine was shivering and my knuckles were white from the kung-fu grip I had on the armrests. PJ seemed to do a really good job for my nonreader friends, until the Buckleberry Ferry when the one rider turned 'round and was joined up by the two others, they freaked out cause they thought there was only one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar
Speaking of fooling, did anyone think that the hobbits were about to receive acupuncture, Mordor-style? In the books, was it the wraiths or their henchpersons that attacked the beds? But I assume that the cutting back and forth between the beds and the hobbits in their bed tents (just how does one place covers over one’s head so that you have a foot or two of empty space?) works for those who don’t know what is about to happen.
this was no doubt a homage to the Ralph baski version – it’s almost a direct copy of the scene from the cartoon lotr.
It only says in the book....
Quote:
As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the door; the brown mat was torn to pieces.
No mention of who actually did it, and why not the way it was portrayed? It's a nod to Bakshi, the first person to get the story onto film and seemingly this way worked.

Alatar: "works for those who don’t know what is about to happen"

Everything works when you don't know what's about to happen!
__________________
Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII
Holbytlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2006, 09:32 PM   #26
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 963
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Merry and Pippin

Being more of a fan of the book than the movie, I'm not really partial to the introduction of our two hobbit friends. I admit, however, that in the context of PJs film version, the conspiracy would never have worked. The departure of Frodo and Sam was sudden, so there was never any time for planning it. But I wish that Merry and Pippin had one line stating why they were so determined to stick with Frodo through thick and thin, braving Black Riders and travelling far from home. Even one line, from either of them! At least set up the fact that they were inseparable chums rather than casual acquaintances.

I don't really like the way that two of our heroes are common vege thieves. If it had been up to me, conspiracy aside, I would have had a less hasty exit from Bag End, have Sam spying in daylight (much more likely), and had Merry and Pippin waiting for Frodo and Sam upon the road, having been tipped off by Sam.

As for the brief appearance of Farmer Maggot's hat, I hardly think that it was worth putting in. I don't feel at all placated by having him mentioned by name, and the chapter title recited. PJ assumingly uses this chapter title device to draw in readers of the books, but it never really worked on me, and felt a trifle overused (I can think of five instances in FOTR alone without effort).


The Old Forest, Bombadil and the Barrow Downs

All three of these chapters are inextricably linked. Without the misadventures of the Old Forest, there is little need for a rest stop at Bombadil's house. And without Bombadil, there would be noone to save the hobbits from the Barrow Wight. Lose one of these three chapters, and the other two are critically damaged. So it is with deep regret that I agree with the filmmakers who chose to leave all three out. Although I do greatly miss the Barrow Downs in particular. Frodo's moment of heroism, the treasure of the barrow, the hobbits gaining their swords (having earned them through surviving the peril of the barrow), and Merry's line: "The men of Carn Dűm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!".


The Nazgűl

When the Black Rider was peering over the tree root sniffing for hobbitses, and the creepy crawlies came out, I thought that was because the Rider was stirring up the evil creatures. It didn't occur to me that they were themselves frightened! I guess I need to be a little less judgmental of centipedes and spiders.

The Nazgűl being frightened off by a mere noise didn't work for me, because of a seeming inconsistency. They rode down the gatekeeping hobbit well enough, so they are hardly the nervous type. I also found it a bit unlikely that, later on, one is so close to the hobbits but unable to grasp them. The hobbits making it on to the ferry worked well; I think the filmmakers would have been better off trimming some of the pursuit scenes. Especially considering they take place at night, when the Nazgűl are supposed to be at their best.


Bree

I too thought that Bree was overly sinister and unfriendly. I think that overall, the movies show too much evil too early. I realise that the hobbits are now Outside and in considerable danger, but I think that the danger element was too drastically elevated at Bree. It should have been a little discomforting to the hobbits, not completely alien.


Strider

Like many others, I love that shot of Strider as he draws on his pipe and the embers light his eyes up. Pure on-screen magic. I thought that his manhandling of Frodo was out of place, though. PJ wants us to be unsure of his intentions, but then 5 minutes later the hobbits trust him anyway. So I'm not quite sure what was gained by having Strider push Frodo roughly into the room.

I really enjoyed Strider's explanation of who and what the Nazgűl are. Very creepy.
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2011, 09:10 AM   #27
sassyfriend
Wight
 
sassyfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
sassyfriend has just left Hobbiton.
Strider: I think that he was rough on Frodo because he was scared and angry that Frodo had put on the ring in the first place.
sassyfriend is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:47 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.