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Old 07-14-2003, 05:49 PM   #1
Måns
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Sting The qualitative aspects of Room in ME

This is about how people in Middle earth percieved room in different qualitative aspects. I will start by clarifying what I mean practicly with this rather pompous and dry phrase. It really is something obvious that you don't really think of, it just is, as so many other things in life that are passed by swiftly. When you are in for example a graveyard, you often get the feeling of respect and solemnity compared to when at home? You may feel that you are safe at home but in a strange environemnt you are worried or anything like that based on your surroundings, taht is when you feel a qualitative difference between different spaces.

One example for this can be sensed when the Hobbits come to Gondor, also Aragorn's reaction, he is not sued to large houses of stoen and feels uncomfortable. No fighting is allowed in Rath dinen, the house of the dead, and Mordor seems to be contaminated in such a way that you cannot enter without feeling dreary. My thought is that Tolkien has used this in a very effectful way. Look at the way the narrative is going, always at the hobbit's point of view which is not very surprising since it is supposed to be related with the Red book. Anyway, when Tolkien chose to make his narrative like this, he had the intention fo picturing the war of the Rign from a few seemingly unimportant persons point of view and I think this has been discussed a lot. What makes it interesting is the way it creates vivid and lively descriptions of rooms and halls that communicates a little of the astonishment that is felt when you suddenly enter something that si above your imagination. This is a bad post and a bad topic for discussing, sepecially with this poor presentation but if anyone has any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear them!

Måns, longing for Her
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Old 07-14-2003, 09:07 PM   #2
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Sting

When you mentioned room, I was literally thinking the concept of space that the elves have which is apparently united with nature. But that was just for starting off with an idea of my own [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I remember "entering" the golden hall, and how it was described, and as a reader, I felt awe, but I also sensed the presence of Theoden who was then in a spell.

But one thing that is quite obvious (to me at least) is that the Hobbit's feelings about certain places are more vivid, and exact. Of course it's because of their unique sensibility and newness to the things they have encountered.

Elaborate more on this, Mans. It's making my mind work, but I can't explore much [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:20 AM   #3
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Sting

Mmmm, but it isn't just the Hobbits that experience this. Everyone does. The Rath Dinen is a sacred place, if you respect the dead at any rate. Mordor is the land of the Enemy, and without much life in it except a lot of Orcs.

Everyone is heavily affected by surroundings. Your surrounding affect what you are thinking; what you can do, what you have to do, where you have to go, how comfortable you are, how comfortable you are, what surrounding inspirations you have to think about. The reason this is particularly evident in LotR may be that Hobbits, I believe, take notice of this more deeply than for example Aragorn would, as they are less rough, more jovial down-to-earth people. Aragorn, as well as the other more seriously-minded people in the book, is sterner, tougher and notices these things less, mostly for the other reason that he is in most ways a more cerebral sort of character and therefore less affected. He recognises these 'atmospheres' and surroundings, but is more used to them and does not place such emphasis on them as on his own mind. Other characters are, of course, similar. That is not to say that the Hobbits weren't tough -- of course, they were, although less accustomed to being so as a Ranger would be -- but that they were more down-to-earth and more used to a sheltered, comfortable life, and more involved in what was going on around them.
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Old 07-15-2003, 08:44 AM   #4
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Sting

I would also say that the reason Aragorn doesn't "seem" to notice these atmospheres is that he is used to them. It was the Hobbits' first time in all these places, so they felt the atmosphere more keenly than, say, Faramir or Aragorn.
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Old 07-16-2003, 01:35 AM   #5
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Sting

Quote:
Aragorn doesn't "seem" to notice these atmospheres is that he is used to them
Gandalf seems to have the same inclination. Not becasue he's a wizard, but because he has travelled around Middle Earth for almost all his life. Yet I feel that there is a difference between Gandalf and Aragorn...can't just point it out exactly


Sorry for the moments of uncertainty...
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Old 07-16-2003, 02:00 AM   #6
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Sting

Gandalf and Aragorn? Of course they were different -- they were not the same person. They were similar in that they were wise, and that they were well-travelled and used to life in the wilds; however Aragorn was a Dunedain and a Ranger, and the heir of Elendil. His mind and the tasks he performed were not the same as those of Gandalf, who was much older, a Maia and as such immortal, playing a different part in the story and a different character altogether (other than the travelling aspect).
Aragorn is a king, albeit a king in exile who has yet to take the crown he is entitled to, while Gandalf is a sort of old man in appearance with an unexpected fiery spirit and will that shows him truly.
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Old 07-16-2003, 09:38 AM   #7
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Sting

Thanks for pointing that out for me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

What I really meant was that Gandalf seemed to be used to all of middle earth, the same way Aragron was. They may be different, but then, the fact is that they both have no indifference when it comes to being in diverse places in ME.

[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]
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Old 07-17-2003, 02:30 PM   #8
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Tolkien

Have you ever been in an unfamiliar place, where maybe your not really supposed to be, and get a strange feeling...I cant really describe it, but thats probably how the little hobbits felt in great places like Minas tirith or terrible ones like Shelob's lair.

Perhaps Frodo experianced a little daja vu in such times, being forsighted and all. Maybe in a dream once upon a time...
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:00 AM   #9
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Perhaps Frodo experianced a little deja vu in such times, being forsighted and all. Maybe in a dream once upon a time...
Uncanny, but I had a premonition about a friend's house when I was 7. I never thought that the house a block away from ours was hers, but I imagined it to be the house we were to pick her up in the mornings for carpool. Weird, huh?

...but you never realize that you had a premonition until you actually see what you just saw. At least that was how it was with me.

Yeah, I guess familiarity is an important part in adjusting to different spaces, but it all seems larger than life if the familiarity comes from a premonition.
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:57 AM   #10
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Sting

Mmmm. I've had a couple of really good deja vu's before... I've got an idea that they're a product of your brain thinking ahead to what is likely to happen next, although that one of yours, Neferchoirwen, is particularly wierd. Unless it was just coincidence, of course. Frodo's sense of premonition existed, in part, because he was thoughtful; he could imagine what might come in the future.
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Old 07-20-2003, 01:44 PM   #11
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Sting

I've had many-a-wierd deja vu, but one time stands above the rest. I had a dream in which i jumped into a pool. I didnt even notice the bubbles at the time,of course, they were just the a passing moment in a detailed dream.

The next day i went swimming, jumped in the pool, and the bubbles were EXACTLY the same. it was WIERD!
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Old 07-20-2003, 11:48 PM   #12
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Sting

When I read the description of the concept of "room" it made me think more of "atmosphere." Almost as if the spirits of the dead kings shushed travellers on the Rath Dinen, or the Huorns(?) in the Old Forest pressed upon the hobbits, so as to cause Pippin to cry out "just let us pass through!" And Legolas had the sensation of heaviness in Fangorn, perhaps because he sensed the Ents there. I myself can empathize with some of these things. Who has not gotten close to a place with an evil feel and hunched over and 'hid' to avoid the evil force noticing you passing through? I really could see and feel it when Frodo did this in and around Mordor. Space, or 'room' disappears for him, and it is just him, the Ring ('the ring of fire before him') and Sauron.

I'm not sure if I'm actually talking about the right thing or not...carry on!

Cheers,
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:02 AM   #13
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Please keep your posts on-topic concerning Middle-Earth; personal deja vu reports don't belong here.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:34 PM   #14
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Sting

sorry, Estel

Quote:
When I read the description of the concept of "room" it made me think more of "atmosphere."
I think that qualifies as well, Lyta [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] There are times when you feel comfortable in a certain place and edgy in some other. And yes...

Quote:
I really could see and feel it when Frodo did this in and around Mordor. Space, or 'room' disappears for him, and it is just him, the Ring ('the ring of fire before him') and Sauron.
I guess when all shelter fails, it's just you and the rawest sense of survival. 'Space' disappears because the security that is supposed to be felt therein is gone, and there is no point in surviving, unless if you can escape.
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Old 07-22-2003, 01:38 AM   #15
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There's so much imagery that it's nigh on impossible not to appreciate Tolkien's work. A lot of people complain that it makes the pace too slow and that it makes reading anything other than exposition tedious
All that imaginary/literary space makes reading in such an intimate experience, doesn't it?
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:04 AM   #16
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There's so much imagery that it's nigh on impossible not to appreciate Tolkien's work.
Unless you're the type of person who can't be bothered coping with the overload of information. Tolkien's writing is, of course, like no other -- it is a lot more than simply a story, however detailed that story might be. The simple stories that he did write, eg LoTR (which draws much on the mythology but is a highly-detailed narrative) are of course very well written and full of imagery.

Note -- It's fine to talk about de ja vous etc a little bit, but do try to make them relate to what we're talking about or at least something in Tolkien won't you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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