Gothmog?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Does anyone ever wonder, just who the Lieutenent of Morgul who took over the legions of the WitchKing was. He called himself Gothmog, but could have been an orc, or one of the more powerful Nazgul, but given the argument about Balrog incarnation recently reopened in "Seven Thains of Morgoth", I myself might now be inclined to think of "Gothmog" as an orc with the spirit of the original incarnated in him. What other of evil orient would dare use the name of the greatest dark warrior ever to exist? Or would Sauron let someone as weak and miserable as an orc deface the name of one of his former comrades? Unless the spirit was him, because even if it was a Nazgul, because the WitchKing had four Morgul lieutenents, could they even utilize that name without repurcution? So that leaves noone. Unless at that moment, someone changed their name to instill more fear unto the enemy, which though likely, seems to give the orcs a great deal less respect for their masters, or the nazgul a great deal more pretentiousness. If anyone thinks they might know, do tell. But the nazgul were flying around at the time, so could it have been one of them?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

That's if you're crediting the Enemy with a sense of honour and respect. Given their past performances over the ages I don't think they'd bother too much. It could even have been a Black Númenórean deliberately forgetting his own name and taking this ancient alias to inflate his ego.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

True, but they never, ever called Sauron by name, or called themselves anything great as that. They even reverred the nazgul-orcs called the WitchKing the high Nazgul, and I don't know that a B.N. would even go that far.

[Mithadan]

"never called Sauron by his name..."

Hmmmm. How about: "I am the Mouth of Sauron"?

[obloquy]

I highly doubt the spirit of Gothmog of the Elder Days would have taken the form of a mere Orc.

In my post in the "Seven Thains" thread I did not intend to suggest that the Balrogs could be reincarnated. What I meant is that they were at first not incarnate, but rather clothed in material forms, and at this point they were capable of re-embodiment. I then speculated that they later grew to the point of incarnation (as Morgoth did), and likewise lost the ability to be re-embodied at will or by their own power. Thus the finality of their deaths.

You might ask why Gothmog, after his death in Gondolin, didn't return to Morgoth to be provided with a new body. Well, we know Morgoth at some point became too diminished to create new forms for himself, and I believe this would also affect his ability to form new bodies for his servants.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Of course, that is true-which makes me wonder even moreso, just who exactly this "Gothmog" lieutenant of Morgul is, because Orcs just are too stupid to lead an army. Also, I think the M.O.S. is an exeption to the rule. He thinks very highly of himself, and was given that title. Since he is an emmissary, he has obviously different rights than orcs, or men not from Mordor.

[obloquy]

I think the issue of the Third Age Gothmog is pretty simple. There's no conclusive evidence of his identity, so the best we can do is determine what he probably was. I'm betting he was another of the Nazgul.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Maybe he was Tom Bombadil! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Don't do that. If we associate the name Gothmog with Tom Bombadil we could end up combining two arch-nemeses into one uberthread about the likelihood that Tom Bombadil had wings. *Shudders*

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Or maybe Gothmog wearing yellow DMs and a blue jacket..

[Mithadan]

Squatter, I thought you knew. Why do you think Tom always wore a jacket? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Really? I never knew that. It seems so obvious now, though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

*bump*

I myself might now be inclined to think of "Gothmog" as an orc with the spirit of the original incarnated in him.

I'm starting to think that way myself, what with all the talk that has been made of the reincarnation of Glorfindel. Durin the Deathless also returns among his kin, and so is it inconceivable that a Balrog could do the same?

Obloquy suggested that Balrogs eventually became incarnate due to indulging in the pleasures of the flesh. They would then, apparently be bound to a hroa, and almost completely diminished in power once slain. Presumably this would put them in much the same position as an elf or a dwarf that had been killed (Glorfindel or Durin), unless like Saruman or Sauron they were banished to the Outer Void upon death.

But would it be possible for the fëa of Gothmog to sneak back in through the Door of Night and to take shape again, perhaps as one of the powerful Maiarin Orc captains rumoured to exist? How were Glorfindel and Durin 'allowed' to return? By the decree of Ilúvatar, or through the strength of their own spirits? Could the return of Gothmog be condoned by Ilúvatar, or was he simply unwilling to prevent it?

It seems possible but unlikely to me that the name of Gothmog could be borne by any other than himself. That would be like a Steward of Gondor calling his son Fëanor, Elendil or Fingolfin, surely?

[The Saucepan Man]

That would be like a Steward of Gondor calling his son Fëanor, Elendil or Fingolfin, surely?

Or Ecthelion. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

And you resurrected this topic WHY?

Evil has no honor or respect. Anyone whom Sauron felt 'worthy' of being called Gothmog could be called Gothmog, and who cares about that old Balrog who died way back in the first age?
I see no reason to believe GOthmog was in any way reincarnated.

[Finwe]

Tuor, calm down. Take a few deep breaths. It's going to be all right.

Perhaps the reason for the name of the lieutenant is the same as the reason for noble Gondorians to name their sons after Elven heroes. The people of Middle-earth set great store by a name, and sharing a name with a hero, to them, meant that a little bit of the hero "came into you." Presumably, that was why we hear of Stewards named Beren, Denethor, and Ecthelion. The same principle can be applied to Orcs, and others under Sauron. Perhaps the Lieutenant took (or was given) the name of Gothmog, to make him something like THE Gothmog. Of course, then he'd have to stay away from Elves in bright, jewel-encrusted armor, with a pointy spike on their helmet, and with the name of Ecthlion. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

From this thread I have deduced that:

• Gothmog may or may not have been an orc or a Ringwraith.
• Gothmog may or may not be in some way, shape or form a reincarnation of the spirit of Gothmog Lord of Balrogs.
• JRR Tolkien did not wish for anyone to know who or what Gothmog was, or at least did not care enough about the character to write anything further on the subject.

I ask you, can any more be deduced?

[Gil-Galad]

Well, i know some of you think Gothmog was an orc, or a ringwraith, but too me, i always thought he was a dark numernorean(SP!) since Mouth of Sauron was held in greater respect then other little orcs, i would guess that sauron valued men more then orcs, even though orcs were easier to gather, but you would think that men would be stronger then orcs...

[Legolas]

I'm starting to think that way myself, what with all the talk that has been made of the reincarnation of Glorfindel. Durin the Deathless also returns among his kin, and so is it inconceivable that a Balrog could do the same?

Yes. A Balrog is of a different fundamental origin - as shown by Gandalf's death, when an Ainu dies (especially one so bound to his/her hroa), the fea leaves Arda. Elves are entirely different - the fea is locked in the world until its end, so they could be freely reincarnated. Durin was the same way, supposedly (given that we know very little of dwarven culture).

Gandalf was only reincarnated at Eru's command. I can't see any justification for presuming that Eru would've done the same with Gothmog. If I was an orc (or any other evil character trying to make a name for myself), Gothmog would seem like a likely candidate for a name. If Gothmog could 'sneak' back through into the Doors of Night (which he assuredly could not), so too could Morgoth, surely. This is obviously not the case.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:25 AM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Olorin_TLA]

Renaming some guy Gothmog doesn't actually mean a lack of respect.

Check out Grond - it's named in honour of the mighty Hammer of the Underworld of old (so Tuor, I think they DO care about the First Age, especially considering Sauron was around then! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) and at the least that gives a sense of pwoer.
So here you have Gothmog, named in honour of the Lord of the Balrogs of old. Gothmog crawled on. Great beats drew it, orks surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it. Dart and bolt hurt it not. No fire would catch on its roofing. Gothmog crawled on.

[Morgoth the Great]

i am not too sure about that whole "taking another form" thing. surely if he could do that then he could of done so while Melkor was still around, or indeed have been made into another Balrog? Surely (as was posted above) he wouldnt of contented himself with being a meager numenorean. Also, if as i think, he was a Nazgul, he would of had to have been a "great king of men" and i cant see an ex-Balrog being such...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The enemy's most powerful servants were the Nazgul.

The Witch King of Angmar was the most powerful of the Nazgul, hence he was the foremost servant.

It is likely that the second most powerful servant of the enemy took control when the Witch King was slain.

The second most powerful servant of the enemy was the second most powerful of the Nazgul.

So, to me, it is likely that Gothmog was a Ringwraith.

[Finwe]

Olorin, dear, I'm afraid that you've mixed up Grond and Gothmog in your post. Unless of course, you really believe that bashing Gothmog's head into the Gates of Minas Tirith would open them. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

The second most powerful servant of the enemy was the second most powerful of the Nazgul.

So, to me, it is likely that Gothmog was a Ringwraith.

In Unfinished Tales, Khamul is referred to as "the second to the chief", implying that he was second in command of the Nazgul. That, of course, does not preclude the possibility that Gothmog was a Nazgul. Perhaps he took over command at the Pelennor following the fall of the Witch King because Khamul was engaged elsewhere. Indeed, Khamul dwelt in Dol Guldor "as Sauron's lieutenant", so he was likely to be stationed there, directing the attacks against Lothlorien.

Personally, I have always thought of Gothmog as a Nazgul, but only because he is referred to as such in a very old War of the Ring boardgame that I have. Not canonical, I know, but it's enough for me. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Finwe, I was using Grond as an example of renaming with respect.

I then proceeded to rewrite part of "The Siege of Gondor" to emphasise the point. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tar-Alcarin]

Finwe, I was using Grond as an example of renaming with respect

But by doing so you confused Gothmog with Grond. You said earlier that it was Gothmog surround by orcs and gothmog who broke the gates of gondor. That is absurd because unles Gothmog had a head of mithril and lots and lots of stone there would be no way for him to break down the gate.

But anyways i have always thought of Gothmog as an Orc. I mean tolkien himslef said that the only name of nazgul ever recorded was Khamul. So if gothmog was a nazgul why would tolkein ever say that. But, he could have been a dark Numenorean. Or he just couldve been like the Mouth of Sauron, just an evil man obsessed with causing as much pain and suffering as possible.

[Finwe]

My point exactly, Tar-Alcarin.


There are plenty of other races that Gothmog could have belonged to. Just because the majority of the Orcs who followed Sauron were mindless killing machines, doesn't mean ALL of them were. There must have been a couple of shrewd ones in the mix who managed to claw (literally!) their way to the top of the "food chain." Gothmog could have been one of those Orcs. He could have also been a Black Numenorean, who fell in with Sauron, as the Mouth did. There are plenty of possibilities.

[The Saucepan Man]

I mean tolkien himslef said that the only name of nazgul ever recorded was Khamul.

Could you give a reference for that?

[Olorin_TLA]

Tar-Alcarin...the bit about Gothmog being drawn by great beasts was a joke. But I'm afraid I'm goign to have to debate your point about the Leiutenant of Morgul not being bale to break the Gates o f Minas Tirith. He could have a very think skull, you know.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:19 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Olorin_TLA ]

[Finwe]

I highly doubt that the book-Gothmog could break open the Gates of Minas Tirith with his head. Now, if you're talking about the movie-Gothmog, then that's different. I suppose he could do it with that hunk of flesh that he calls a head.

[Tar-Alcarin]

Tar-Alcarin...the bit about Gothmog being drawn by great beasts was a joke. But I'm afraid I'm goign to have to debate your point about the Leiutenant of Morgul not being bale to break the Gates o f Minas Tirith. He could have a very think skull, you know.

He would have to have the biggest head ever. That gate is made out of stone and unless he had a jackhammer attached to his chin there is no way in mordor he could have. But the movie gothmog might have been able to. With that huge lump on the side of his head.

[Lhunardawen]

Could you give a reference for that?

Saucepan, I think it was mentioned in UT. I don't have it with me now so I can't say the exact sentences.

If I remember right, I think Khamul was in charge of Dol Guldor (and he probably led the attack on Lothlorien). If this is so, could we say that Gothmog was the third most powerful Nazgul, and he was second-in-command to the Witch-King in their attack on Minas Tirith?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:47 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Saucepan, I think it was mentioned in UT.

In The Hunt for the Ring, the following reference is given:

Now at the time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldor as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

So, Lhunardawen, I agree that Khamul, while seemingly second in chain of command to the Witch King, was probably otherwise occupied in the attacks on Lothlorien during the battle of Pelennor. Which makes it quite likely, in my mind, that command at the Battle of Pelennor Fields was handed to another Nazgul when the Witch-King met his doom there. If so, it follows that Gothmog was a Nazgul.

The reference that I asked Tar-Alacarin for was a definitive statement by Tolkien that Khamul was the only Nazgul named, which would preclude Gothmog from being a Nazgul. As far as I am aware, Tolkien made no such statement.

[Lhunardawen]

I'm sorry, Saucepan. I think my brain was quite scrambled. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

If you are right, why is it that Gothmog's name was not mentioned in RotK? Just wondering...

Happy 100th post for me!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Findegil]

It is clearly a possibility to interpret Gothmog as a Nazgûl. But he was not intended to be one when his name was given as the one who took command after the fall of the whitchking!
When Tolkien wrote that chapter he envisioned the Nazgûl be fly back to Mordor after the fall of the whitchking. All glimpses of that flight were later removed. (We do not if intentional or by accident.) But he named Gothmog the commander in the field after the fall of the whitchking from the begining. That would mean that at least at that time Tolkien did not take Gothmog as one of the Nazgûl.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Firefoot]

It seems to me that in order to figure out who Gothmog could have been you have to answer the question as to why he would have taken the name Gothmog. If it was a Nazgul, surely you wouldn't have to make yourself sound more powerful by taking a name like that? For an orc, or perhaps a Black Numenorean, taking a name such as Gothmog for the reason of sounding more powerful sounds more plausible. However, why would an orc be in command at the Pelennor? Sauron had more powerful servants than an orc to take command. I can't think of a reason for a Nazgul to take the name Gothmog though. Unless JRRT just wanted to give the commander a name? For the position of having command a Nazgul seems most likely so I guess my opinion is that Gothmog is a Nazgul.

[Tar-Alcarin]

THis can be an open ended question. There would be only one way to find out and unfortunatly for us he is dead. All we can guess on are speculations and observations. In short all we know about gothmog is that he was named after a balrog, was second in command at Minas Tirith, when WK died he fled back to minas morgul.

[Finwe]

There is also the possibility that Tolkien gave the Lieutenant a name because he wanted to personify the "Dark Force" that was trying to conquer Minas Tirith. He wanted to make the reader understand that this wasn't some sort of mindless "flood," but an army composed of people (commanders, foot soldiers, etc.). In this scenario, it wouldn't particularly matter what race Gothmog is. All we know is that someone, mighty among the army, took over after the Witchking died, and continued leading the fight. Perhaps Tolkien also wanted to show that the fight could still go on without the Witch-king, that the People of the West had other foes that they needed to worry about. True, the tide of the battle had turned drastically, but there was still a battle to be fought.

[Olorin_TLA]

Findegil, do you happen to have The War of the Ring? If os, would it be possible to make type up the first mention of Gothmog, just to see it in context? I'm very curious, and my library doesn't have it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

If it was a Nazgul, surely you wouldn't have to make yourself sound more powerful by taking a name like that?

But, if he was a Nazgul, then he was originally a Man. And I can imagine a Black Numenorean or an Easterling taking a name like that in reverence to one of the primary dark "heroes" of old.

It is clearly a possibility to interpret Gothmog as a Nazgûl. But he was not intended to be one ...

Fair point, Findegil. But I see him as a Nazgul. And since there is (as far as I am aware) no definitive proof one way or another, I am happy to continue doing so. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]