Using the one ring to defeat Sauron?

[Tom-fool of a took]

Hi there guys.

Recently just finshed reading the LOTR (bit late I know!) and what a journey it was!

After re-reading the book a couple of times, a thought came to be regarding the one ring.

I apologise if the topic's already been discussed.

In the book, it's mentioned on numerous occasions that using the One ring to throw down Sauron would be folly since, even if it were achieved, all it would do is create another Dark Lord to take his place (due to the corrupting nature of the One).

From what I've read, this seems to be the chief reason for not using the One against Sauron, as Boromir wished to do. But another reason came to me which I'm not sure if it's discussed elswhere and I've missed.

Am I right in assuming that the key reason that Sauron did not perish after being defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil was because the One Ring was not unmade? If so would it be fair to say that the One acts as a kind of Horcrux for Sauron? (sorry to get all Harry Potter on you).

So going by this assumption, is it even possible to destroy Sauron by using the One? Because from the way I see it even if you defeat him, the fact that you're using the One ring means that it still exists; and hence means that Sauron will never truly be gone. Wouldn't he eventually be able to slowly regain power like he did in Dol Guldur?

I'm just curious because I've never seen this point mentioned in the book as being a reason for choosing to destroy the ring, rather than use it.

Cheers in advance for having a look at my question.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, Tom-fool!

You bring up an interesting point.I never considered that before.

I think that it really depends n who is trying to overthrow Sauron. Aragorn beat him in a "battle of wills" via palantir, so if he also has the power of the Ring at his command, he would probably have enough of it tooverthrow Sauron in a one-on-one combat.

However, will Sauron die? I guess not. He didn't die even when the Ring was destroyed; he was just weakend to a point from which he can't return. The Ring always tries to find Sauron, so it would eventually betray Aragorn (or whoever has it). I wonder if it will even let itself be used as weapon aginst it's master.

Suppose a maia like Gandalf or Saruman could weaken Sauron without destroying the Ring. Then they'd (no, one of them) would take his place safely enough. But his power still exists in the Ring, so he will still have the chance to come back.

So my point is that you can kil him temporarely.

[Tom-fool of a took]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Welcome to the Downs, Tom-fool!

You bring up an interesting point.I never considered that before.

I think that it really depends n who is trying to overthrow Sauron. Aragorn beat him in a "battle of wills" via palantir, so if he also has the power of the Ring at his command, he would probably have enough of it tooverthrow Sauron in a one-on-one combat.

However, will Sauron die? I guess not. He didn't die even when the Ring was destroyed; he was just weakend to a point from which he can't return. The Ring always tries to find Sauron, so it would eventually betray Aragorn (or whoever has it). I wonder if it will even let itself be used as weapon aginst it's master.
Suppose a maia like Gandalf or Saruman could weaken Sauron without destroying the Ring. Then they'd (no, one of them) would take his place safely enough. But his power still exists in the Ring, so he will still have the chance to come back.

So my point is that you can kil him temporarely.

Interesting. I hadn't thought about the bolded bit before. Some more food for thought

Thanks for the response!

I'm intrigued that it's not mentioned as a key reason against using the ring because imo, it's an even more pertinent issue than the one's mentioned in the book. I mean what's the point in using the One Ring to throw Sauron down when all you're doing is sending him on a sabbatical (as long as it may be!) and in the process probably putting another Dark Lord in place. Then we'd eventually get to the situation where, when Sauron eventually regained power, that there'd be two Dark Lords in middle-earth!

At first I thought that Sauron was foolish for creating the One because of the obvious flaw that it presented and that the perceived gains weren't worth the risk. But the more I thought about it, the more foolproof the concept seemed.

If the point that I raised is true, then literally the only way that Sauron could be finally defeated (after creating the One) would be the followed path in the books i.e. willfully unmaking the Ring in Orodruin, and even that proved to be impossible, as was shown with Frodo while on the precipice.

I apologise for the babbling, as I know I'm going over stuff that you guys would have gone over a thousand times.

I feel like a Hobbit discussing herb-lore .

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tom-fool of a took

Am I right in assuming that the key reason that Sauron did not perish after being defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil was because the One Ring was not unmade? If so would it be fair to say that the One acts as a kind of Horcrux for Sauron? (sorry to get all Harry Potter on you).

To echo G55, welcome to the Downs! Having read all the HP books, I've actually had the same thought myself, that the One and the Horcruxus might have similarities. They aren't quite the same, however.

Originally Posted by Tom-fool of a took

So going by this assumption, is it even possible to destroy Sauron by using the One? Because from the way I see it even if you defeat him, the fact that you're using the One ring means that it still exists; and hence means that Sauron will never truly be gone. Wouldn't he eventually be able to slowly regain power like he did in Dol Guldur?

Tolkien discussed that scenario in Letter # 266. If someone claimed the Ring openly, Sauron himself would attempt to physically wrest it from the claimant, at some point. If the claimant had sufficient strength to keep in Sauron's despite?

The result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken away from him forever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Letters-#266

Even though the Ring possessed Sauron's power and will, never is it said that it had within it any part of his soul, or his innate being. The destruction of it merely dissipated so much of his power that he could not physically manifest again. The letter cited above seems to make a distinction between the Ring and Sauron; they are bound together; but the Ring could have been physically kept from Sauron in his despite, and it would go on, but he would not. That obviously was not the case with the Horcruxes. Possessing one of them and keeping it against Voldemort's will apparently would not cause any weakening on his part.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, will Sauron die? I guess not. He didn't die even when the Ring was destroyed; he was just weakend to a point from which he can't return. The Ring always tries to find Sauron, so it would eventually betray Aragorn (or whoever has it). I wonder if it will even let itself be used as weapon aginst it's master.

The letter above suggests that probably only Gandalf would have been strong enough to keep the Ring from Sauron in a physical confrontation. Lesser beings, like Aragorn, Elrond, or even Galadriel, would in the end not have been able to withstand him in person. They might have been able to militarily defeat him, but in the end it would have come down to Sauron knowing who had the the Ring, and going to take it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Suppose a maia like Gandalf or Saruman could weaken Sauron without destroying the Ring. Then they'd (no, one of them) would take his place safely enough. But his power still exists in the Ring, so he will still have the chance to come back.

I can't see Saruman doing it. He got pwned on the Palantír.

x/d with Tom

[Tom-fool of a took]

Thanks for the response Inziladun.

Guess that blows my theory out of the water!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Tolkien discussed that scenario in Letter # 266. If someone claimed the Ring openly, Sauron himself would attempt to physically wrest it from the claimant, at some point. If the claimant had sufficient strength to keep in Sauron's despite?

Letters-#266

Ah this possibly answers another query that I had.

Going of this, I'm assuming that Sauron became aware of Frodo when he was in the Crack of Doom because he laid a claim to the ring?

I initally assumed it was because, as Sam hypothesises in the book, Sauron would be aware if anyone wore the One in Mordor.

[Galadriel55]

He's aware if you put on the Ring anywhere. Remember how he searched for Frodo at Amon Hen?

I think on Mt. Doom it was the combination of putting on and claiming the Ring.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

He's aware if you put on the Ring anywhere. Remember how he searched for Frodo at Amon Hen?

I think on Mt. Doom it was the combination of putting on and claiming the Ring.

Agree on Mt. Doom.

I'd disagree about Amon Hen. I believe when Saruman and Denathor used palantír to gaze on the dark tower, Sauron became aware of their gaze and was able to engage them in contests of will. Amon Hen, the Hill of Sight, might in some way also be a place of seeing. While Aragorn saw nothing special when he sat upon the seat just after Frodo, when wearing the Ring Frodo was able to see quite a lot. Sauron only began searching for Frodo, though, after Frodo looked at the Dark Tower.

Both Bilbo and Frodo put on the ring on occasion in the Shire without giving away the ring's location. I'd just suggest that Amon Hen and the Crack of Doom are poor places to put it on.
.

[Galadriel55]

I have to respectfully disagree in my turn. Sauron didn't notice the Ring as much in The Shire because it was so far away. The closer it gets, the more connection he has to it (I sound like I'm talking about cellphones ). The Witch-King could feel it's presence in Imlad Morgul, just because it was there. If Frodo would put on the Ring, the Nazgul would discover him. Imagine what Sauron would be able to detect if he was in the Witch-king's place!

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have to respectfully disagree in my turn. Sauron didn't notice the Ring as much in The Shire because it was so far away. The closer it gets, the more connection he has to it (I sound like I'm talking about cellphones ). The Witch-King could feel it's presence in Imlad Morgul, just because it was there. If Frodo would put on the Ring, the Nazgul would discover him. Imagine what Sauron would be able to detect if he was in the Witch-king's place!

Well, you seem to have backed off the original position that Sauron could sense the ring if it were put on "anywhere"... though some might claim that the Shire doesn't count as 'anywhere.'

I'd agree range is important. The power of the sensor (Sauron being more sensitive than the witch king) is important. Whether the ring is being worn or not is definitely important.

I just think looking at the Dark Tower with enchanted vision might also tend to make Sauron aware of the gaze. Can't prove it. It just seems to make sense given the descriptions of the three times people looked at the Dark Tower with enchanted vision.