Star Wars and Middle-Earth

[yavanna II]

As I was watching Star Wars for the nth time, my dad came, and said something like this:

"Haven't you noticed any similarities between Star Wars and Lotr?"

I replied: "Pa, they're both great movies..."

Then he told me something he'd read in the internet about Sauron, Darth Vader, Morgoth, the Emperor, Yoda, and Gandalf.

Similarities tween Sauron and D. Vader
1. They were once good, Vader being the former Anakin Skywalker and Sauron the former servant of Aule
2. They were both corrupted: Sauron by Melkor and Anakin by the Emperor

Similarities tween Morgoth and the Emperor
1. THEY'RE STRONG AND MIGHTY!!!
2. They were once good (at least, I think the emperor was once a Jedi)
3. They're very good in corrupting people's minds
4. They're EVIL and powerhungry and treacherous

Similarities tween Yoda and Gandalf
1. They're good
2. THey're OOOOLLLLLLDDDDD!!!!!!
3. They were part of councils of the great and wise
4. They're like guiding people, counselling against evil
5. They're damn good warriors
6. Yoda's strong with the Force and Gandalf is a Maia--don't that make em powerful?
7. They were never allied with evil....

Oh and I must add that I find something similar with Yoda's speech and Gollum's...


Forgiveness I must ask if posted already this thread has been... very curious I was, yess, precious!!!

[Boromir88]

I think you can pick out people from Star Wars movies and compare them to other movies. And same for LOTR. The comparisons being made seem to be general and can be applied to anyone.

2. They were once good (at least, I think the emperor was once a Jedi)

Quick note on Mr. Palpatine, he was good but wasn't a jedi. Became a corrupted politician.

[Dimcollowen]

yeah there are lots of similarities.....i think that you could even compare obi-wan to Aragorn....they are both great warriors....they both are friends with really great people..(yoda and Gandalf) ....they are both really attractive.....i could go on

[VanimaEdhel]

In my opinion what it comes down to is good storyline. There are certain elements - even in terms of story - that comprise a good, exciting story. There will most certainly be overlap, since, as the expressin goes, "There are no new things under the sun." While that might not be entirely true, there will most certainly be similarities between "good" tales and "good" books or movies.

I mean people compare Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter just as much. Meanwhile, Rowling has never read the Lord of the Rings all the way through (make of that what you will). There's a rough model of sorts for fantasy stories (and even science fiction stories pick up on this) involving good people being persuaded by dark forces, sages giving advice and providing guidance, a great but humble man must come to grips with his role in the world - all of that can be found in almost any fantasy or science fiction story. Whether you want to assert that Tolkien started this tradition or not is up to you, but there are so many things that you can find that are similar to Lord of the Rings in many ways, that you can't presume that there's intention behind it or even that it's unique in its similarity.

[Dimcollowen]

I think that Tolkien did start a tradition and I hope its one that never dies!!

[Kitanna]

I wrote a list of this many months ago as a way to combat boredom. Here are three of my results. I may add some more in the future...

1) Frodo Baggins = Luke Skywalker: Both dream of a life away from their peaceful homes. Frodo wishes to go out on one of Uncle Bilbo's adventures. Luke wants to be with his friends at the academy, fighting the Empire. Both are brought into something bigger because of a family member. Frodo inherits the Ring from Bilbo, Luke has the Force from his father. Both are removed from their homes by a wise, older man. (Gandalf and Obi-Wan Kenobi *is considered part of the hero cycle*). Both are sent on missions to help conquer evil and restore peace. Frodo to destroy the Ring and Luke to train as a Jedi and join the Rebel Alliance. Both destroy something that is a great threat to their worlds. Frodo "casts" (I'm using that term lightly here so please excuse me) the Ring into Mount Doom and Luke helps to blow up the Death Star.

2) Boromir = Lando Calrissian: Both wanted what was best for their people, despite their means of getting it. Boromir wanted to see Gondor restored to her glory and would go as far as to steal the Ring from Frodo. Lando wanted the people of Cloud City to continue a peaceful existence and was willing to turn his friend Han over to Darth Vader to ensure it. In the end both come around and see their folly. Though it was too late for Boromir, Lando was able to be of service to the Rebels by leading a fleet to destroy the second Death Star.

3) The Witch King = Darth Maul: Second in command to the ultimate evil force. The Witch King serves Sauron and Darth Maul serves Darth Sideous. Both meet their end at the hands of someone who lost a friend/family member to their evil ways. The Witch King is killed by Eowyn after he kills King Theoden. Darth Maul is killed by Obi-Wan Kenobi after he kills Qui-Gon Jinn.

But of course as VanimaEdhel and Boromir said you can find similarties between LOTR and SW as well as with other fantasy stories like Harry Potter, etc.

[The Only Real Estel]

You could compare Anakin and Denethor.

Both of them started out quite well, but they were both proud and fearful (Denethor grew more fearful as Sauron grew, of course).

They both listened to lies from the main Enemy of their time and ended up turning against those that were trying to help them (Anakin against Obi-Wan & Denethor against Gandalf).

In the end they both eventually came to see their life and its surroundings through the twisted lens of the very Enemy they had been committed to fighting against.

[mormegil]

Truth is, as Boromir similarly stated, that these are two epic stories and those who look for parallels are bound to find something similar. Now if there was an all powerful "force" in Middle-earth or that to be the Sith Master you needed to posses a certain object that would complete your power, then you'd have some real parallels to analyze. As it is, we really have two stories of good and evil competing where some are lost to the evil and some evil come over to the good.

[Gurthang]

I once posted a thread (which got only one reply *sigh*) showing all the similarities between Anakin/Vader and Smeagol/Gollum.

First off, both characters come into view as being evil. Both are considered 'bad guys' when they first appear to the viewers/readers. But, as the story progresses, it is revealed that they were not always evil, but were good in their past. The past is then shown completely and that is followed by a confrontation between past and present; for instance Vader indecision between Luke and the Emporer(Return of the Jedi) and the Gollum/Smeagol debate (movie version is good in this). The characters then repent of their vileness and try to become good.

Also, I just thought of this. It's not really that fantastic, but:

Star Wars: A New Hope -----> Hope to destroy the Ultimate Weapon
The Fellowship of the Ring --> Hope to destroy the One Ring

The Empire Strikes Back ----> Empire's retaliation against the Rebels
The Two Towers -----------> League between the TT against Free Peoples

The Return of the Jedi ----> Jedi come back from 'extiction'
The Return of the King ---> King comes back to Minas Tirith


Hmmmmm...

[AragornII]

There are plenty of similarities between SW and LOTR. Jean Tang, a writer for the website Salon.com said,

Both movies feature mentors who duel bad guys atop narrow passageways, as well as secondary villains - Darth Vader and Saruman the White, both deserters to the dark side, both fond of telekinetic violence - who provide the more visible nemesis. Along the way, both heroes encounter women in white gowns, cynical older-brother types, sidekicks playing for laughs and faceless cannon fodder (storm troopers and orcs). Both make use of mystical languages, mystical spiritual beliefs and pivotal scenes in bars and in watery mucky - mucks (compare the swamp at the gates of Moria to the garbage chute in the Death Star.

If you think about it, all these are true.

There are also many other similarities:
1. Gollum - Yoda (greenish raggedy midget with speech impediment)
2. Magic swords (Sting, Glamdring, Anduril) - Lightsabers
3.Gandalf - Obi-Wan Kenobi
4. Eowyn - Princess Leia
5.Saruman - Darth Vader
6. Sauron - Palpatine
7.Bilbo digs his magic sword out of an old wooden box and gives it to Frodo.
Obi-Wan digs Anakin's lightsaber out of an old wooden box and gives it to Luke.
8. Gollum bites off Frodo's finger, which plunges into the abyss with the Ring.
Vader chops off Luke's hand, which plunges into the abyss with his lightsaber.
9.Galadriel foretells the future, and Sam must decide whether to help his friends or not. Yoda foretells the future and Luke must decide whether to help his friends or not. They both warn that they've only seen one possible future.
10. Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to join the evil wizards, thereby bringing order to ME. Darth Vader tries to get Luke to join the dark side, thereby bringing order to the galaxy.
11.Mundane name and special name (Strider and Aragorn, Ben and Obi-Wan0
12. Mysterious figure throws back hood of robe to reveal that he's Gandalf. Mysterious figure throws back hood to reveal he's Obi-Wan.

That's pretty cool, all those similarities.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Galadriel foretells the future, and Sam must decide whether to help his friends or not. Yoda foretells the future and Luke must decide whether to help his friends or not. They both warn that they've only seen one possible future.

One difference here: Luke acts on his fears, while Sam puts them in their place and reaffirms that his place is by Frodo's side. Also, Yoda counsels, and Galadriel merely chides, suggesting Sam's own thoughts on the matter, while Yoda and Obi-Wan tend to believe they know what is best and fear for Luke's own decision. (Now we know it is because Anakin did a bit of this in his time, and they were probably afraid!) Interesting point, though, is Luke's decision is quite Frodo-like. He chooses his friends' safety over his own spiritual safety, simply because he believes he can help them. No selfish motives there. Anakin, on the other hand, has some REAL issues! :P As Estel pointed out, there is some Denethor-mirroring in there, but I'd also say he's got a bit of Wormtongue characteristic too, choosing the person who seems strongest in order to further his own ambitions, only to have his fortunes intertwined with that person for good or ill, mostly ill. Vader was Palpatine's enforcer and "convincer," while Wormtongue, in a less overt way, was the "convincer" of Rohan...anyway, don't read too much into this crackpot analysis!

Cheers!
Lyta

Its undoubtable that StarWars and The Lord Of The Rings will go down as diffinitive icons of the 20th century, and it only seems right that these two great epics should share so much in story.

A large reason for this is the inspiration Lucas had for Star Wars.
Lucas looked towards classic fantasy (Vladamir Propp) and myths to create his narrative. He took the Ultimate evil villain, the wise old man and the struggeling hero and placed them in space.

It isn't known for certain if Lucas looked at Tolkien but as Tolkien IS fantasy it would only make sense. Especially as Darth Vader's apperance was based on Dr.Doom!

[Gil-Galad]

Morgoth and Emperor, both were supposedly good, but had a secret agenda

both Yoda and Gandalf realized what happened and tried to do something againest it (Yoda Vs. Emperor, Gandalf Vs. Saruman)

[Himilsillion]

Both Lucas and Tokien based a good portion of their storyline on mythology and myths. Lucas took the idea of Chewie and Wookies from Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Tolkien barrowed some stuff from Norse mythology. Both used the classic "hero cycle" It really isn't that surprising that they have so many similarities.

[Parmawen]

I think it's because of the definition of fantasy. In most cases to fit into the genre there are some characteristics, one of them being an older, wise guide often in the form of a wizard. This is common from Harry Potter's Dumbledore to Aragorn in LOTR, and takes the form of Obi-Wan in Star Wars. Also, there's always the sidekick in all fantasy stories (Sam, Ron, and Han Solo). The lovely thing about Tolkien's work though is that, despite all it's similiarities to the other movies/books, it was still the first, and set most of the guidelines to fantasy anyway!

[Kath]

Lucas definitely looked at some Tolkien. There was an interview with him in Empire a while back for Revenge of the Sith and he said that Endor (the moon where the Ewoks lived) was a translation of Middle Earth!

It is true though that any fantasy epic is going to have the same basic components in it's storyline simply because it needs them to be a fantasy eipc. Comparing them is fun but I doubt it will lead to any major revelations like - George Lucas is Tolkien's long lost son!

[Holbytlass]

Another interesting comparison to this fun thread.....


Obi-Wan/Gandalf: both sacrificed themselves for the greater good (Being killed by Vader, falling in Moria) and coming out stronger in the end.

[Elu Ancalime]

Star wars is secular. There is no being to deal out judgement, like eru or the valar. the force exists; it does not tell how to use it. the concept of good and bad in star wars is all perspective, which i learned after seeing the revenge of the sith. After death, there is no power to punish the sith, or for that matter, the jedi. So the rebellion is not good, and the empire is not evil. They just veiw tings in conlict. There is no salvation in star wars, as far as we know, you could be a sith with 9 wives, who cursed and all that, with nobody to tell you wrong. I would suspect because of the technological advances in star wars, being in the future, religion would have died out for the most part. Except a' long long time a go,' says it was a while ago, except 'in a galaxy far way' refutes that.
I really do rant too much, and this is my second religous post of the day, so im just thinking about it. Again, if this offends you in anyway, you dont have to respond, or hate, because i respect everybodys beliefs, and, well, yeah. Sorry about all that.
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Honda S2000 history

Lord of the Rings can be compared with many other books and stories as well, it just depends on how you interpert it. From WWI and WW2 to the Bible, you can find many similarities.

[Elu Ancalime]

True. I was so caught up in my religous rant i forgot about WWI. Tolkien saw LotR like WWI,"lads going off on adventures and not coming back." He was in the RAF wasn't he?
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BUY GLASS BONG

[Lindolirian]

Tolkien was not in the Air Force; he was in the infantry and fought in the Battle of the Somme with the Lancashire Fusiliers.

[Eluchíl]

More evidence that LotR is an allegory for WWI.

As far as SW's relation...I think that's just a lot of coincidence.

[Elu Ancalime]

Huh. I always thought he was also in the RAF. Maybe im thinking of Roald Dahl.
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Sambar

[Gil-Galad]

keep in mind Eluchil that Tolkiens work is where most fantasy comes from, take Warhammer for example, and all the other fantasy books and games, like Warcraft and so on, they all take what Tolkien laid out, Dwarves being miners and living in mountains, Elves living in forests, Humans being the main catalyst for most events and the deciding factor


EDIT: i have received a negative rep for this, though it only cost me 2 points, yet there was no comment, again... i would like to know by a PM(Private Message) by whoever neg repped me to tell me what is wrong with this post, i will not tell anyone your name, i swear it.

[Eluchíl]

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

keep in mind Eluchil that Tolkiens work is where most fantasy comes from, take Warhammer for example, and all the other fantasy books and games, like Warcraft and so on, they all take what Tolkien laid out, Dwarves being miners and living in mountains, Elves living in forests, Humans being the main catalyst for most events and the deciding factor

Indeed. However, I don't recognize Star Wars this way.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Huh. I always thought he was also in the RAF. Maybe im thinking of Roald Dahl.

His son was in the air force during WWII, stationed in South Africa, I believe.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

As is possibly the most obvious thing in the universe from my user name, I am a fan of both Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. And it's not hard to see similarities. It's a simple fact. There is a set plot for fantasy/sci-fi that works. It becomes overdone, but there are the movies that do that plot well.

The plot?

Farmboy/villager/naive young hero goes off on an adventure set to him by a wise mentor/wizard/powerful old person to save galaxy/world. Along the way he learns some dramatic truth, that he is royalty/son of evil (usually), ends up with a couple of party members, generally including a rugged handsome person (Aragorn/Han) and some pretty girl. The plot carries on, bringing the end to a climax they shouldn't be able to escape, then, through convenience brought on by a narrator/author they save the world.

What fantasy doesn't have elements of the typical cliché plotline? Who hasn't ever considered doing at least one of the common elements?

Star Wars and LotR are simply better versions. The fact that they contain many similarities is what attracts fans... or critics.

It's true, they're very overdone. But they work, and not everyone looks at things with a narrator/author's perspective, seeing all the overdone similarities in movies. I seen an image once which listed Star War's plot and proceeded to write in Harry Potter's by crossing out words and not changing the basic core structure, merely the characters. You could do the same with LotR, with quite a few fantasy films.

Which is why I strongly believe that elves should live in cliffs and be miners without pointy ears, and dwarves should have pointy ears and have a strong love for the musical arts of violin, piano, flute, and harp. And humans should be decimated. Though I'm guilty of the Star Wars/LotR plotlines, it's nice to see a change. It's nice to find creativity amidst those without the minds to write without stealing from the already published movies and books.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Kath

Lucas definitely looked at some Tolkien. There was an interview with him in Empire a while back for Revenge of the Sith and he said that Endor (the moon where the Ewoks lived) was a translation of Middle Earth!

wow. My dad told me about this, but I thought he was bluffing.

Originally Posted by Kath

It is true though that any fantasy epic is going to have the same basic components in it's storyline simply because it needs them to be a fantasy eipc. Comparing them is fun but I doubt it will lead to any major revelations like - George Lucas is Tolkien's long lost son!

Ooh. BUt i think that even though SW and LotR have cliche and history-based plots, they're really cleverly written.

~~~~
long live Yoda!

[Eluchíl]

As a matter of fact you can see many similarties between not only great works, but great works of fiction. Inspiration is a key element in creativity. But, saying that Yoda is Gandalf, or that Aragorn is Luke...well, that's just looking too much into it I think.

[Enedhilion]

And Denethor is the counterpart of Jar Jar Binks.

...

Right.

Well, I think these two stories can compare to almost anything.

Good vs. evil, and many other themes.