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Old 09-29-2017, 06:53 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Galadriel and Celeborn

As I mentioned in personal discussion with ArcuCalion, I think that before I prepare my first draft of the chapter ‘Of the Flight of the Noldor’ for posting here, we need to discuss Galadriel’s story during this time. Since when ever we go on to the Second Age material, we would need to discuss as one of the most important issues as well the actions of the couple Galadriel and Celeborn, I will collect in these post the relevant sources and start the discussion. But I will not drive it to the end. The Second Age stuff is even more complex then the First Age stuff. Therefore it will be enough now to bring out the truth about Galadriel behavior during the process of Exiling the Noldor.

This research was started as response to the critic my post in this thread in 'The Books' Forum: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But since this analyses is based heavely on the priority rules of this project which are quiet diffrent from that of 'The Books'-Forum I found it not appropirate to post it in that thread as an answer. Nonetheless that thread is worth reading, at least to get some additional opinions.

Let’s first have look at the source. I try to order them from higher to lower priority. I will number the source text A) to X) (hopefully not really to X) for easier reference. The fist to look at is RGEO, since it is the last source published by JRR Tolkien himself in which we find information about the pair. The Next is then clearly the Appendices to LotR since they were changed in the second edition of the book and last of the first priority sources is then the text of the LotR itself. I will not go into the large field of draft texts or even older additions for LotR and its Appendices. They might be very interesting for the development of the history of the pair, but that is not the goal here.
I will give first only the sources and follow then with my interpretation.
A) RGEO; Notes and Translations, Namárië; published 1968, written by Tolkien supposedly about that time:
Quote:
The question Sí man i yulman nin enquantuva? And the question at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the high-Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she has done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.
B) LotR, Appendix B; preface for the 2. Age; second edition from 1966 revised supposedly about that time:
Quote:
In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir.
Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria. The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the Dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races. Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor.
C) LotR; Chapter 7, Second edition published in 1966, but I have not researched when the text posted here was written:
Quote:
'Your quest is known to us,' said Galadriel, looking at Frodo. `But we will not here speak of it more openly. Yet not in vain will it prove, maybe, that you came to this land seeking aid, as Gandalf himself plainly purposed. For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.
'I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise. But even now there is hope left. I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be. But this I will say to you: your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true.'
The rest of the sources are from posthumous publications and with that of lower priority. I will try to order them as good as possible chronological with the newest first:

D) Unfinished Tales; Part 2: The Second Age; Chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, very late and partly illegible note; written 1973:
This is the story of Galadriel taking ship alone with Celeborn in a ship they had build and saved from the Feanorians.

E) Unfinished Tales; Part 2: The Second Age; Chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Amroth and Nimrodel; written 1969 or later:
Quote:
I have said earlier (p. 245) that if Amroth were indeed thought of as son of Galadriel and Celeborn when The Lord of the Rings was written, so important a connection could hardly have escaped mention. But whether he was or not, this view of his parentage was later rejected. I give next a short tale (dating from 1969 or later) entitled "Part of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel recounted in brief."
...
The essay continues with a brief explanation of how Amroth as King of Lórien related to the rule there of Celeborn and Galadriel:

The people of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known.) 15 They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time Elrond went westward [sic; probably meaning simply that he did not cross Misty Mountains] and established the refuge of Imladris; Celeborn went at first to Lórien and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin. When however Sauron withdrew to Mordor, and was (as reported) wholly concerned with conquests in the East, Celeborn rejoin¬ed Galadriel in Lindon.
Lórien had then long years of peace and obscurity under the rule of its own king Amdír, until the Downfall of Númenor and the sudden return of Sauron to Middle-earth. Amdír obeyed the summons of Gil-galad and brought as large a force as he could muster to the Last Alliance, but he was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad and most of his company with him. Amroth, his son, became king.

This account is of course greatly at variance with that contained in "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn." Amroth is no longer the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, but of Amdír, a prince of Sindarin origin. The older story of the relations of Galadriel and Celeborn with Eregion and Lórien seems to have been modified in many important respects, but how much of it would have been retained in any fully written narrative cannot be said. Celeborn's association with Lórien is now placed much further back (for in "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" he never went to Lórien at all during the Second Age); and we learn here that many Noldorin Elves passed through Moria to Lórien after the destruction of Eregion. In the earlier account there is no suggestion of this, and the movement of "Beleriandic" Elves into Lórien took place under peaceful conditions many years before (p. 248). The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration to Lórien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in a writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time "passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien." It is neither asserted nor denied in these late writings that Galadriel (or Celeborn) had relations with Lórien before 1697, and there are no other references outside "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" to Celebrimbor's revolt (at some time between 1350 and 1400) against their rule in Eregion, nor to Galadriel's departure at the time to Lórien and her taking up rule there, while Celeborn remained behind in Eregion. It is not made clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas (p. 251).
The discussion of Amroth continues:

But during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth, being especially concerned to learn all news and rumours of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the dark stronghold in Dol Guldur. But his people were content with Amroth; he was valiant and wise, and his little kingdom was yet prosperous and beautiful. Therefore after long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years; for Elrond was their kinsman, since he had early in the Third Age [in the year 109, according to the Tale of Years] wedded their daughter Celebrían.
After the disaster in Moria [in the year 1980] and the sorrows of Lórien, which was now left without a ruler (for Amroth was drowned in the sea in the Bay of Belfalas and left no heir), Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

Elsewhere there is one other reference to their movements during those years:

To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose, they dwelt there again for a long time. In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed. Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means is beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king lost, its people fleeing and likely to leave it deserted to likely occupied by Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government. But they took no title of King or Queen, and were the guardians that in the event brought it unviolated through the War of the Ring.
F) The History of Middle-earth; vol. 12: The Peoples of Middle-earth; part 2: Late Writings; Chapter XI: The Shibboleth of Feanor, written after 1968:
Quote:
So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.

Galadriel was chosen by Artanis ('noble woman') to be her Sindarin name; for it was the most beautiful of her names, and, though as an epesse, had been given to her by her lover, Teleporno of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand. As he gave it in Telerin form it was Alatariel(le). The Quenyarized form appears as Altariel, though its true form would have been Naltariel. It was euphoniously and correctly rendered in Sindarin Galadriel.
G) Letters, No. 297 Drafts for a letter to ‘Mr. Rang’; written 1967:
Quote:
The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressëa, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.
H) Unfinished Tales; Part 2: The Second Age; Chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn; written after 1965 but before 1969:
Quote:
The earlier story (apart from the question of the ban and the pardon), to which the statements in The Silmarillion, The Road Goes Ever On, and Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings refer, is fairly clear: Galadriel, coming to Middle-earth as one of the leaders of the second host of the Noldor, met Celeborn in Doriath, and was later wedded to him; he was the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was "beloved of Elwë with whom he remained." (Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë, but not so close as by that in which he became Olwë's grandson.) It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril – but this is nowhere stated. Celeborn is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings as dwelling for a time in Lindon south of the Lune; 2 but early in the Second Age they passed over the Mountains into Eriador. Their subsequent history, in the same phase (so to call it) of my father's writing, is told in the short narrative that follows here.

Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

The text bearing this title is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, which is nonetheless almost the sole narrative source for the events in the West of Middle-earth up to the defeat and expulsion of Sauron from Eriador in the year 1701 of the Second Age. Other than this there is little beyond the brief and infrequent entries in the Tale of Years, and the much more generalised and selective account in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (published in The Silmarillion). It is certain that this present text was composed after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, both from there being a reference to the book and from the fact that Galadriel is called the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod Felagund (for these are the later names of those princes, introduced in the revised edition: see p. 268, note 20). The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later. This is the case with those references to Amroth that make him the son of Galadriel and Celeborn; but whenever these references were inserted, I think: it is virtually certain that this was a new construction, later than the writing of The Lord of the Rings. Had he been supposed to be their son when it was written, the fact would surely have been mentioned.
It is very notable that not only is there no mention in this text of a ban on Galadriel's return into the West, but it even seems from a pas¬sage at the beginning of the account that no such idea was present; while later in the narrative Galadriel's remaining in Middle-earth after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador is ascribed to her sense that it was her duty not to depart while he was still finally unconquered. This is a chief support of the (hesitant) view expressed above (p. 240) that the story of the ban was later than the writing of The Lord of the Rings, cf. also a passage in the story of the Elessar, given on p. 261.
What follows here is retold from this text with some interspersed comments, indicated by square brackets.

Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund. She was welcome in Doriath, because her mother Eärwen, daughter of Olwë, was Telerin and the niece of Thingol, and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë and she became a friend of Melian. In Doriath she met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol. For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), …


In its concluding passage the narrative returns to Galadriel, telling that the sea-longing grew so strong in her that (though she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered) she determined to leave Lórinand and to dwell near the sea. She committed Lórinand to Amroth, and passing again through Moria with Celebrían she came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn. There (it seems) she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time; and it was then that Elrond first saw Celebrían, and loved her, though he said nothing of it. It was while Galadriel was in Imladris that the Council referred to above was held. But at some later time [there is no indication of the date] Galadriel and Celeborn together with Celebrían departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth; there Amroth their son at times visited them, and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand. It was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lórinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981. Here the text "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" comes to an end.

It may be noted here that the absence of any indication to the contrary in The Lord of the Rings had led commentators to the natural assumption that Galadriel and Celeborn passed the latter half of the Second Age and all the Third in Lothlórien; but this was not so, though their story as outlined in "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" was greatly modified afterwards, as will be shown below.
I) The History of Middle-earth; vol. 10: Morgoths Ring; part 2: The Annals of Amman, written about 1958:
Quote:
Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end. Fingolfin and Turgon his son therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords. But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone; and Orodreth, alone of his sons, spoke in like manner. Finrod was with Turgon, his friend; but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little; and with Fingon stood as they ever did Angrod and Aegnor, sons of Finarfin. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.

… Therefore led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Inglor and Galadriel the valiant and fair, they dared to pass into the untrodden North, and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helkaraxe and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or in woe. …
J) The History of Middle-earth; vol. 11: The War of the Jewels; part 1: The Grey Annals, written about 1958:
Quote:
52.
$75. In this year Inglor and his sister Galadriel were long the guests of Thingol their kinsman. And Inglor was filled with wonder at the beauty and strength of Menegroth, and he desired greatly to make for himself a strong place in like manner. Therefore he opened his heart to Thingol, telling him of his dreams; and Thingol spoke to him of the caves under the High Faroth on the west-bank of Narog, and when he departed gave him guides to lead him to that place of which few yet knew. Thus Inglor came to the Caverns of Narog and began there to establish deep halls and armouries, after the manner of Menegroth; and that stronghold was called Nargothrond. Wherefore the Noldor named him Felagund, Lord of Caves, and that name he bore until his end. But Galadriel did not depart [added later: from Doriath], and remained long with Melian, for there was much love between them.
...
66.
$91. Now Galadriel Finrod's daughter, as hath been told, dwelt with Melian, and was dear to her. And at times they would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but fell ever silent.
$92. And on a time Melian said: 'There is some woe that lies upon thee and thy kin. That I can see in thee, but all else is 'hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive aught that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the Land of Aman, and reaches far out over the Sea. [Wilt thou not >] Why wilt thou not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' answered Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright.'
$93. Then Melian looked in her eyes, and said: 'I believe not that the Noldor came forth as messengers of the Valar, as was said at first: not though they came in the very hour of our need. For lo! they speak never of the Valar, nor have their high lords brought any message to Thingol, whether from Manwe, or Ulmo, or even from Olwe the king's brother and his own folk that went over the Sea. For what cause, Galadriel, were the high people of the Noldor driven forth as exiles from Aman? Or what evil lies on the sons of Feanor that they are so haughty and fell? Do I not strike near the truth?'
$94. 'Near, lady,' answered Galadriel, 'save that we were not driven forth, but came of our own will, and against that of the Valar. And through great peril and in despite of the Valar for this purpose we came: to take vengeance upon Morgoth, [or >] and regain what he stole.' Then Galadriel spoke to Melian of the Silmarils, and of the slaying of King Finwe. But still she said no word of the Oath, nor of the Kinslaying, nor of the burning of the ships.
$95. But Melian, who looked still in her eyes as she spoke, said: 'Now much thou tellest me, and yet more I perceive. A darkness thou wouldst cast still over the long road from Tirion, but I see evil there, which Thingol should learn for his guidance.'
'Maybe,' said Galadriel, 'but not of me.'
$96. And Melian spoke then no more of these matters with Galadriel; but she told to King Thingol all that she had heard of the Silmarils. ...
...
67.
...
$101. And it chanced that at that time the sons of Finrod were again the guests of Thingol, for they wished to see their sister Galadriel. Then Thingol, being greatly moved, spake in ire to Inglor, saying: 'Ill hast thou done to me, kinsman, to conceal so great matters from me. For behold! I have learned of all the evil deeds of the Noldor.'
...
$107. Then the sons of Finrod departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the words of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Feanor could escape from the shadow that lay upon his house. ...
...
102.
$108. About this time it is recorded that Nargothrond was full-wrought, and Finrod's sons were gathered there to a feast and Galadriel came from Doriath and dwelt there a while. Now King Inglor Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this was; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of all my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
$109. But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.
...
420.
...
$130. It is said that in these matters none save Inglor took counsel with King Thingol. And he was ill pleased, for that reason and because he was troubled with dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did. And he said, Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Beor who serve Inglor the beloved.'
$131. Melian said naught to him at that time, but she said after to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And lo! one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'
K) As exception I give here on draft version. It will be seen in the commentary why: The history of Middle-earth; Volume 12: The People of Middle-earth; Part 1: The Prolog and Appendices to the Lord of the Rings; Chapter VI: The Tale of the Years of the second Age; T4, written about 1956:
Quote:
750. Foundation of Imladris (or Rivendell) and of Eregion (or Hollin) as dwellings of the Noldor or High Elves. Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far east ward, but most of these peoples are Avari or East-elves. The chief of these were Thranduil who ruled in the north of Greenwood the Great beyond Anduin, but Lorien was fairer and had the greater power; for Celeborn had to wife the Lady Galadriel of the Noldor, sister of Gil-galad [> sister of Felagund Gil-galad's sire].(10)
Note 10: With this entry compare the headnote to the Second Age in Appendix B. - The words 'the Lady Galadriel of the Noldor, sister of Gil-galad' were not, as might be thought, a slip, but record a stage in her entry into the legends of the First Age. In one of the earliest texts of the work Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age my father wrote of Galadriel: 'A Queen she was and lady of the woodland elves, yet she was herself of the Noldor and had come from Beleriand in the days of the Exile.' To this he added subsequently: 'For it is said by some that she was a hand- maid of Melian the Immortal in the realm of Doriath'; but striking this out at once he substituted: 'For it is said by some that she was a daughter of Felagund the Fair and escaped from Nargothrond in the day of its destruction.' In the following text this was changed to read: 'And some have said that she was the daughter of Felagund the Fair and fled from Nargothrond before its fall, and passed over the Mountains into Eriador ere the coming of Fionwe'; this in turn was altered to: 'For she was the daughter of Felagund the Fair and the elder sister of Gil-galad, though seldom had they met, for ere Nargothrond was made or Felagund was driven from Dorthonion, she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of Fionwe.' - In the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals she had become, as she remained, the sister of Felagund.

Now to my interpretation of these sources:
About A): At first glance there seems not much space for interpretation here. Galadriel is one of the Noldor and Celeborn of the Sindar and both are already married when they cross the Ered Luin together. That this crossing of the Ered Luin might not occur immediately after Galadriels reply to the ban on her return to Valinor is clear from the statement that they went to Eregion, which was founded later. But then it might as well be that they did not go directly to Eregion after the crossing of the mountains, or both.
Together with A) text B) gives a bit more to think about. They still fit together nicely, as is to be expected with texts that were written only a short time apart. Here it is made clear that Celeborn at least stayed for a considerable time in south Lindon and since we know from A) that the pair crossed the Ered Luin together the natural interpretation is that Galadriel was with him during his time as Lord of South-Lindon. But then it is only the natural first guess, that the ‘for a time’ means the time immediately at the beginning of the Second Age. At a second glance it could as well mean any later time period. We also get some more family background for both: Celeborn is akin to Thingol and Galadriel the sister of Finrod Felagund.
In text C) we come to the first real issue. The famous sentence will give us a hard time to reconcile with A) and B): He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I [Galadriel] have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I [Galadriel] passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat. The first part is not that difficult: The ‘days of dawn’ should refer to the first rising of the sun at the beginning of the First Age. ‘In the West’ might refer to any think west of the River Anduin or even west of the River Celduin. It does include Doriath, Lindon, Nenuial, Eregion, Imladirs, Lorien and Dol Amroth (all places that have been recorded in one or another source to have been a dwelling place of Celeborn). The second half sentence is more interesting for what it does not directly say, Galadriel does here witness that she had not dwelt all that time since ‘the day of dawn’ together with her husband. Okay, that seems obvious, since she is an Exil and entered ME in the days of dawn while Celeborn a Sinda was already there, and we do not expect the pair to join up at once when Galadriel landed on the shore. But the interesting thing is that Galadriel gives another explanation: ‘for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains’. The most natural interpretation would be that Galadriel crossed the mountains (Ered Luin or Hithaeglir) to join Celeborn on the other side (and we know that at first, when the sentence was written, that was exactly what was meant, since at that time Celeborn was a Silvain Elf of Lorien). But that natural interpretation would be a contradiction to A) where it is attested that (probably a considerable long time) ‘After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age’ both together crosses the Ered Luin. Since Galadriel made a difference between ‘the days of dawn’ and ‘ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’ it is clear that the crossing of the mountains can not mean the Pelori, since these Galadriel crossed before ‘the days of dawn’. One could take the Ered Wethrin or the Ered Grogoroth as these crossed mountains, but that I also find very much forced, since we have to expect Galadriel at the Merteh Aderthad 20 FA or at least in 52 FA when she is recorded to visit Doriath with her brother and stayed there. To nominate such an early time by ‘ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’ seems strange, since both cities were at that time not yet founded. In addition that would as well state just the obvious fact that Celeborn did not wait for Galadriel on the shore.
Here a look into one of the drafts text K) might be useful; even so I dismissed them earlier. But I will show that the idea that I want to point out was long living since it will reoccur in a very late text. We have in text K) for the first time the idea of an early passage of Galadriel over the Ered Lindon. And that idea seems to have been stable, so nearly everything around that changed. We find it again in the very late text D). At least the idea of an early journey of Galadriel and Celeborn to Eraidor was a returning one, but probably it was long-lasting. Together with text C) in which there is made a clear distinction between ‘he’[Celeborn], ‘I’[Galadriel] and ‘we’[Galadriel and Celeborn] and text A) that attested that both crossed the Ered Luin together at some time in the Second Age, I would assume that Galadriel alone left Beleriand in the Frist Age ‘ere the Fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’. To pinpoint the time of that departure a bit more: The last mention of Galadriel in GA is in the 420 FA where it is reported that Melian foretold to Galadriel that Beren would not be kept out of Doriath by the girdle of Melian. The Fall of Nargothrond occurred in 495 FA. In between there occurred many events to show how right Galadriels motives as reported in text D) were: The orc raid over the Ered Luin that pushed the Folk of Haleth out of Dor-Caranthir in 421 FA, the Dagor Bragolach in 455 FA, the coming of the Swarthy Men in 463 FA or the Ninaeth Arnoediad in 472 FA.
That Galadriel returned at the end of the First Age is obvious, since attested by text A) she received a sentence from the Valar with a ban on her return and answered to that sentence. We have to assume that such communication was done during the sojourn of Eönwë in ME after the War of Wrath.
But let us consider first the ban a bit longer: In text G) it said ‘The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained.’ Who could be these other ‘few chief actors in the rebellion’ that were still around after the War of Wrath? Of the first generation Finweans only Finarfin was left and he was already pardoned more then 600 years before. Of the second generation beside Galadriel only Maedros and Maglor were left and they were summoned by Eönwë to come to Aman and wait there the judgment of the Valar. Nobody else is specially mentioned in the story of the rebellion. So we have to assume that these others were group leaders that probably acted very badly during the fight at Aqualondë. And that might be as well the reason for the ban on Galadriels return. So her motive for the fight was just, since she fought in defense of the Teleri and their ships, the means that she toke maybe not. Is it probable that her heroic and fierce defense was the reason for the escalation up to the point where blood was shed for the protection / usurpation of property? That would very much fit the description of the Second Clan as the most quarrelsome of the Elves. And that would as well warrant a ban on her return as long as she did not repent, which seemed not to be the case looking at here proud answer. Beside that it would not matter at all if she afterwards took the route over the ice or sailed solitary with a ship that she rescued from the host of the Feanorians.
But that is only an aside consideration. The singlehanded ship journey from text D) is out of the picture since text A) names her ‘the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth.’

Up to this point the result is needed for the First Age stuff. Therefore for the time being I will stop here. But the thread should be used for the discussion of the farther story of pair.

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Old 09-29-2017, 11:18 PM   #2
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This is an incredibly detailed and comprehensive list of movements. Since I saw that you had listed "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" on the outline as "first draft," I can assume you have worked out a timeline which you believe to be correct. What would that be, in bullet point form? As far as I can tell, it seems to be:

- Galadriel is born in Tirion
- Feanor covets her hair / strife between them
- Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol
- Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel goes with feanor
- Kinslaying: Galadriel fights feanor in defense of the Swanhaven
- leads the Noldor across the ice
- Mereth Aderthad
- She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian
- Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries
- visits Nargothrond
- journeys over the mountains with Celeborn
- returns to Doriath / the Havens of Sirion / Ossiriand
- refuses the pardon of the Valar
- dwells in Lindon

and from there it gets more murky, but this seems to me to be the generally consistent plot of events for the first age. Am I misreading it?
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:02 AM   #3
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After I had posted this I observed that my conclusion was maybe a bit thin, because such a list as you created was missing. And I found that I should have given the impulse for the research, with the reference to the therad in the book forum which I will edit into the original posting.

But whatsoever my list is abit different from your even to the time of the end of the First Age, where as you observed the really murky stuff starts. The reason for the differences seems to be that I consider the sources not as entities that are either valid or not but as 'adding info to the overall picture' even if parts of it are contradiced by sources of higher priority. Therefore I think that at least parts of D should be used. With that I get:

- Galadriel is born in Tirion
- Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol
- Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them
- Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë and builds a ship of her own. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started.
- Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes
- Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven
- leads the Noldor across the ice
- Mereth Aderthad
- She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian
- Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries
- visits Nargothrond
- journeys over the mountains without Celeborn
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath
- Galadriel follows the sumons of Eönwë and returns to Beleriand (most proable place of abbiding are the Havens of Sirion where we would suppose Celeborn could be meet again.
- accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partily because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth
- crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they becomes Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador.

I think that the Lordship of Celeborn in Lindon South of Lûhn was later in Second Age after the Fall of Eregion.

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Old 09-30-2017, 08:06 AM   #4
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I would greatly disagree with the addition of the boatbuilding, as this is entirely stemming from a rejected and impossible story idea. The rest looks good, but I noticed a contradiction. In Of the Naugrim and the Edain it is said:
Quote:
At this time> it is said that they climbed {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and looked eastward in wonder, for the lands of Middle-earth seemed wild and wide; but none ever passed over the mountains while Angband lasted.
This must either be emended, or taken into consideration in this discussion as a point of contention.
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:24 PM   #5
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The boat building is impossible because? Would disagree means you disagree, I supose. I support it, so we have to discuss it out. That Galadriel wished to explore her own abilities in Middle-earth and lusted to build their a power of her own is atested in other sources. The logical means to come to Middle-earth would be the ships of the Teleri. Galadriel was the granddaughter of Olwë. Why then shouldn't she not go to Aqualondë and try her tallents on boat building, even without Celeborn being there to be meet.

For me the quote you provided refers to the poeple of Caranthir not to all the Noldor. Therefore I am inclined to think there is no issue. But I am ambivalent about this. If you find we have to change it, we can change it.

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Old 10-01-2017, 06:36 PM   #6
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I suppose there is no reason she would not have built a boat. Thus, i will concede it.

You are right, the passage does seem to refer solely to the people of Caranthir.

What more remains to be decided before a draft of the Flight of the Noldor is possible?
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:15 AM   #7
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I am actually working on the draft. It will still take a bit of time, since I have to formulat my comments on the changes I introduced (years ago). But I can give a release info: The boat is out of the plot. Working in the text I found that the boat was probabaly not built by Galadriel or with Galadriels help, because it is name 'Celeborn's boat'. Therefore I agree to remove it togehter with Celeborn.

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Old 10-02-2017, 06:48 AM   #8
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Awesome! When you're done with the draft and we review it, i will do one for the Siege of Angband chapter. Then all of the first age will be a wip!
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
- journeys over the mountains without Celeborn
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath
- Galadriel follows the sumons of Eönwë and returns to Beleriand (most proable place of abbiding are the Havens of Sirion where we would suppose Celeborn could be meet again.
I realize the guidelines are specific in this forum, but for me it seems simpler for Galadriel to stay with Celeborn in whatever's left of Beleriand, receive her ban, then cross the mountains of Ered Lindon at some point.

The mountains as noted in The Lord of the Rings are never named there of course, and are already arguably confusing: the Company had just crossed, albeit "under", a very notable mountain range (quite notable to the Lindar on the Great Journey too) to "get to" Galadriel...

... but she doesn't mean these mountains?

Okay she might have gone round, or be generally referring to both Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains, but if it's arguably vague, why not the Ered Wethrin in Beleriand? And it appears that this "ghost" statement might have begun in reference to the Mountains of Valinor (Christopher Tolkien's commentary), granted with different wording, but why not mentally change the range yet again to fit the later idea of Celeborn the Sinda of Doriath?

Two objections I've thought about (and have run into on line):

1) What's so notable about Galadriel's crossing of the Ered Wethrin (to get mention here)?

2) Ere the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin... when (if we imagine the Ered Wethrin), it's also ere the founding!


My answers are (in reverse order)

The falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin didn't happen on the same date. Galadriel's reference is arguably a general one to evoke "long long ago" especially to the ears and mind of the four Hobbits. If I said (something like) "these people came to England before the Fall of Rome" I could simply be generalizing by using a well known event of the deep past. It merely suggests "they arrived a long time ago" for the minds of folks who are not history buffs and don't care when Rome was founded. They get the idea.

As for the notability objection: Galadriel need not have passed over the Mountains of Aman, and it seems to me that there was a pass into the Echoing Mountains as well -- the Noldor took it, and a massing of orcs appear to travel fairly far to take it -- but it's not very convenient considering where Galadriel ended up, if one is then going to the feast and on to Doriath.

In other words, crossing Ered Wethrin could have been Galadriel's first experience with crossing high mountains.

I know it's not what Tolkien meant

But I really only "know" this to some measure of certainty due to posthumously published texts and commentary. In any case none of this need be explained in your version of Quenta Silmarillion. It's just a possible mental way (if one feels it "works" well enough) to keep Galadriel in Beleriand with her husband, and not have to return from Eriador to find out...

... she's been banned! Obviously it's up to you folks. I'm not sure my blather about this appears in the linked thread, if maybe in other threads at Barrow Downs. In any case I had some free time to annoy this thread with it too!



Also, in my experience I've run into the question, despite what is said in RGEO: why does Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings say she passes the test and will go West, as if she already knows her ban has been lifted before she sings her lament? Some take this to challenge the "truth" of the ban, and one person I chatted with even went so far as to say RGEO represents external author commentary and invoked the "death of author" principle to essentially "erase" the ban as Tolkien's own personal interpretation of his world.

For the record I found no evidence that RGEO is written as external commentary (Tolkien as author), rather than the internal guise of the translator used elsewhere, and I take the directness of RGEO to be true, over Galadriel's possible implication in the story in Fellowship of the Ring. Here I'm just noting, some disagree.

For myself, so far, I just mentally imagine Galadriel to be leaving out "if allowed"... in other words, she passed the test and she'll return West (if allowed), but she doesn't want to confuse folks about her ban at this point.

Or something
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:47 AM   #10
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In many ways, I would actually agree with Galin. The mountains to which she refers are extremely vague, but to me the more I look at the phrase, the more it feels like the essence of the meaning is that she crossed into the Outer World; i.e. Left Aman. As she did not really "cross the Pelori" this seems odd, until one remembers that the primary act of the Hiding of Valinor was the raising of the Pelori to great heights, and tolkien calls this their last act of truly demiurgic labor. Thus the Pelori are the divide between the Blessed Realm and the Outer World, and Galadriel seems to be using them as a way to say that she came to Beleriand. Now, she does not specify the mountains, and so the reader may interpret them as the Pelori, the Ered Wethrin, or even the Ered Lomin, but the fact remains that all of these could indeed qualify for the mountains in the passage.

As for the "before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" I agree with Galin. This phrase simply is used to denote "long long ago," as it is used also in Gimli's Durin song to denote the same. He is describing the awakening of Durin and says before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, even though they would not be founded for ages of the world. Thus, Findegil's objection to the Ered Wethrin does not really hold.

Regardless, we have progressed enough in our agreement that the needed drafts may be done, but going forward this will become immensely important.
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:02 AM   #11
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Hello Galin, nice to read you again here in this quiet corner of teh Downs!

If we go back to the time when JRR Tolkien wrote that sentence in source C, then it is quiet clearly a reference either to Ered Luin or to the Hitheaglir. At that time Celeborn was a Lord of the Silvian Elves in Lorien and Galadriel does recount her coming into his land. And I totaly agree with Galin that the Hitheaglir is most probably meant since these mountains the fellowship has expierenced just a view days before.

But now Celeborn had become a Sindar and did had dwelt all that time since 'the days of dawn' in Lorien. Therefore we have reinterpret the statement.

First the time statement: I don't by your argument that this is just unspecific statement of long ago. It would be extremly strange to refer to Celeborn dwelling in the west by 'since the day of dawn' and then to her own movement by 'ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin' if it would make no difference. And if she meant the Pelorí it would make no difference since she 'crossed' these mountians (if crossing we can named it at all) before the days of dawn. So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'. One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.

Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?

In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.

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Old 10-03-2017, 07:24 AM   #12
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Hi Findegil. Yes I couldn't resist. I've spent hours and hours on this tangle of history.

I don't mean that Galadriel's statement is wholly unspecific. It's quite general yet gives at least a "time line in the sand" so to speak. If I say "before the Fall of Rome" folks will probably think "thousands of years ago" but they will also, I would guess, differentiate even this from the "dawn of history" for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
(...) So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'.
Celeborn "is accounted the wisest of the Elves in Middle-earth" (agree or not) he has "dwelt in the West since the days of dawn" (very very long time) "and I [Galadriel of course] have dwelt with him years uncounted" [then she gives yet another general time detail, but one that is at least more "markable" in the imagination] "for ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" [still thousands of years past, but a point of general reference for the Company, including Hobbits] "I passed over the mountains and together through ages of the world..."

Quote:
One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader.
For myself I reject the Ered Lomin as there appears to be a pass taken by the Noldor and those dratted orcs who chose the same way; or in any case, the history does not describe any difficult mountain passage here. This could be due to brevity, but taken along with this path being worth finding for the orcs, who had come a long way round to follow the Noldor, to me this suggests at least something less that the "usual" difficulty of crossing high mountains.

Quote:
Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin?
Tue enough. I can't recall nowadays for sure, but I'm guessing that for my first read at least, I supposed she meant the Misty Mountains.

But ach, text D. I wouldn't employ this late variation as it's notably at odds with Galadriel's author published history (and Tolkien's memory seems certainly questionable here).

I understand however that you take a different view and draw what you can into a fuller tale. No problem of course.

This means I'm sure not to agree with your Second Age history here, as I think Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is a problematic text.

I'll try to resist then... I'll try

For instance I believe that the making of Celebrimbor into a Feanorean and Lord of Eregion, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (and certain statements from Words, Phrases, And Passages), knocks out the notion of Galadriel and Celeborn supposedly founding Eregion and so on (other problems I have with this text)...

... but see... I'm already going there

Quote:
In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved.
True.

In any case I appreciate the feedback on my "mountain idea" in an attempt to deal with this line in Fellowship of the Ring, even if I still haven't convinced you... or anyone.


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Old 10-06-2017, 12:15 PM   #13
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Looking throughout the Silmarillion (1977), there are two places where CT added in editorial additions to clarify the role of Celeborn in the story. As it is, our current drafts of the First Age have no mention of him at all, and, as CT thought, this seems to me to be a mistake. Should we take up the two mentions of Celeborn into the Silmarillion? (One is in the Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin chapter, while the other is in the Of the Ruin of Doriath Chapter.) The first merely describes the love of Galadriel and Celeborn, and the second clarifies that Nimloth wife of Dior is his kinswoman. I would argue we could even expand these with information from the UT geneology or account, but this must be examined.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:07 AM   #14
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This quote from LQ in Of Beleriand and its Realms makes it seem more unlikely that Galadriel crossed the mountains...

Quote:
and beyond Duin Daer the Noldor seldom came, nor ever east of Ered Lindon while their realm lasted.
Of course, we could say the Galadriel and Celeborn notes are later, but in this case we must change this passage.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:39 PM   #15
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Galadriel sentence in LotR is for sure of higher priorty. I would even go so far as to change this sentence from LQ to do not force any interpretation of the LotR sentence if we would have taken it up in to our text.

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Old 10-09-2017, 12:46 PM   #16
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How about:

Quote:
and beyond Duin Daer <editorial movement and east of the Ered Lindon> the Noldor seldom came{, nor ever east of Ered Lindon} while their realm lasted.
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:10 AM   #17
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About the proposed additions to the first age texts:
- The Noldor east of Ered Lindon: For this we settled on a different edited version in the thread about ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’

- Celeborn in ‘Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin’:
Yes I think we should include this, so we might better use the original source texts for the edit:
Quote:
... Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (NG-EX-04.7{Nibinnogs}[Noegyth Nibin]), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them NG-EX-04.8{ - hence Mîm's special hatred for the Elves -} especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
>Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt NG-EX-04.9{never}[not] in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.> NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol> NG-EX-04.95<Shiboleth , whom she wedded later in Beleriand.> NG-EX-04.97<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn Elmo{ – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he} was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was {"}beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.{" (}Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë.
> NG-EX-05 <LQ2 Now Turgon remembered rather the City set upon a Hill, Tirion the fair with its Tower and Tree, and he found not what he sought, and returned to {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and sat at peace in Vinyamar by the shore. …
- Celeborn as kinsmen of Nimloth: This is already include under the editorial maker RD-EX-66

- Celeborn escaping the sack of Doriath: I think this we should tell in retrospective, as we do with the story of Galadriel leaving Beleriand before the end of the First Age.

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Old 04-25-2018, 11:10 AM   #18
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Hello everybody, it is again a very long time since the last posts in this part of the Forum. As ArcusCalion utter in private communication the wish to go on with the project, I can’t resist that urge any longer and so I think it its best to start up again with the discussion of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, since they are key-figures in the history of the early Second Age in Middle-Earth.
I still work from the collection of source texts given in the first post of this thread and still use the reference number A) to K) established in that post. It might be necessary to add farther sources. (I have seen Galins comment about ‘certain statements from Words, Phrases, and Passages’, but I did not yet look up what he meant by this.) If it becomes necessary, I would add such sources at their chronological place and indicate them with a second letter in small type.
But for now with the sources as collected, I come to the following corrected and extended timeline listing:
- Galadriel is born in Tirion
- Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol
- Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them
- Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started.
- Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes
- Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven
- leads the Noldor across the ice
- She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian
- Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries
- visits Nargothrond
- journeys over the mountains with Celeborn (text D, but see next point)
- Galadriel crosses the Hitheaglir alone (text C, while Celeborn returns to Doriath, see next point)
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath (text H, probably we have to add this in the appropriate chapter)
- Galadriel hears late of the summons of Eönwë (text K) and returns to Beleriand (where we would suppose Celeborn is meet again).
- accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partly because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth (text A & H)
- ‘In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.’ (text B)
- Galadriel crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they become Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador. (text A & H)
- Galadriel goes together with Celeborn to Eregion (text A & H)
- Galadriel has contact to Lorien (text H)
- revolt of Celebrimbor, Galadriel leaves Eregion and goes to Lorien, Celeborn stayes in Eregion (text H)
- The War of Sauron against Eregion: Celebron leads a sortie and joins his forces to Elronds, they establish Imladris. Galadriel remains in Lorien. (text H)
- After the War Galadriel joins Celeborn in Imladris (text H), the first White Council is held in Imladris. Celeborn and Galadriel depart to Lorien to ‘fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin.’ They ‘passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien.’ (text E)
- Galadriel goes then to Lindon, since ‘Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon’. (text E)
- Celeborn and Galadriel return to Lorien (text E, ‘To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age’, first time after the White Council, second time here)
- After a sojourn in Imladris they both go to Belfalas. (text H, this is debatable, but otherwise we have no idea where the couple staid at the end of the Second and start of the Thrid Age.)
- ‘But during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth’. (text E)
- ‘After long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years’. (text E)
- In 1981 TA Galadriel and Celeborn return to Lorien after the loss of Amroth and take up the rule there. (text E and text H)

Up to the end of the First Age this was nearly fully discussed. Only an addition to the effect of Celeborn being mentioned during the Fall of Doriath is new.
If the rest will be fully covered by our text is not so clear, but we should discuss here what our assumptions are and use that as a kind of guideline. That said we must as a matter of fact not come to full agreement about the timeline list, even so that would be great. If the texts we produce can be ambiguity enough to allow all timeline list we sought possible that is fully sufficient. But for that we need of course to know what are the timeline lists look like that each of us has in mind.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: As often before my drafts do as yet not fully cover every development made in this post. But I will not start to change them, before we did not come to some kind of conclusion here. Anyhow, even if I would not have to change anything, still all changes or text constructions in the private drafts have to be numbered and commented and the texts reduced to copy right friendly amount before posting. So please don’t calculate with a fast upcoming of that material.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:04 PM   #19
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Greetings! As to the first post that addition is splendid and I'm so glad we don't have to use the scantier version from the Sil77, so thank you for finding that!

As to the timeline, as you say, we have been in agreement until the end of the first age. Going forward, as any person who has studied these things knows, their movements quickly become vague and difficult to follow, but I think that is ok. Like you say, much of their movement is simply implied, and we will not need to actually discuss it in our drafts. For instance, Galadriel crossing over the blue mountains before the sack of Doriath is most likely not something we will include in the draft, simply because there is no textual version of this, it is merely extrapolated from her comments in FotR.
Quote:
- journeys over the mountains with Celeborn (text D, but see next point)
- Galadriel crosses the Hitheaglir alone (text C, while Celeborn returns to Doriath, see next point)
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath (text H, probably we have to add this in the appropriate chapter)
- Galadriel hears late of the summons of Eönwë (text K) and returns to Beleriand (where we would suppose Celeborn is meet again).
These points here are (as far as I know) unable to be included in drafts, because we have no texts to use for it, as Tolkien never wrote about it. If he did and I have forgotten about the text, my apologies, and we may need to discuss it further. As to the Timeline, I will heartily concede that you know far more than I about the contradictions in these events, and to my eyes this timeline looks serviceable, and is certainly good enough to use as a basis of drafts going forward. I think it will be easier to see any issues with it when we review the drafts themselves. Therefore, at this time, I am in agreement with the timeline, but as we begin posting drafts and reviewing them, I may raise objections.

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Old 04-28-2018, 02:11 PM   #20
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Nice, then I will look trough my drafts an see if they still fit to these timeline list.

By the way I have found that I did already collect the articles from Words,Phrases & Passages in The Lord of the Rings that are concerned with Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrimbor, Eregion and Lothlorien. And re-reading them I think I as well found the passage that Galin meant would suggest that Galadriel and Celeborn are out as founders of Eregion. So I will prepair these texts for posting as sources here. But it will take some time. Some of the articles are long.

After that we might discuss that special case, but I am still inclined to let the story of Galadriel and Celeborn as founder stand, as well based on a sentence from the same source.

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Old 04-28-2018, 04:32 PM   #21
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What are the entries you mean? I can check my copy and see if I have any opinions to offer.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:32 AM   #22
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Hello everybody. Nice that again is resurrected the forum section.
First of all repeat that I have no access to my books and material and only write from memory, but I share this for if I can help.

The WPaP text is not earlier than the UT texts? Anyway, the founders of Eregion could be Galadriel and Celeborn as well as Celebrimbor, and later remains Celebrimbor as Lord of Eregion.

But turning to the movements of G and C. Evidently they are very difficult to follow, but the temporal line of Findegil, is, for me, correct.

And for the first age could be inserted in the texts, in my opinion, with few alterations.
-First using a alter in the sentence in Of the realms of Beleriand stated above.
-Second inserting at the end of OtRoD a sentence that Celeborn escaped from its ruin.
-Third at the end ot the QS in the subsection Of the passing of the Elves inserting a compilation of the K text of Findegil... and there only with an invented clarification of few words that previously Celeborn had returned to Doriath (for me is the only way and so I had done it.)
-Then in the Second age, when Galadriel is said that contacted with Lindorinand clarificate with a sentence from Findegil's text D (I think) that she had passed across the mountains before the end of the first age.

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Old 04-29-2018, 11:14 AM   #23
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My assumption that Galadriel and Celeborn could be Lord and Lady of Eregion for a time is based on the entrance for 'Celebrimbor' (page 42):
Quote:
S. name of a famous craftsman, the Lord of the Elves of Eregion; he was the ruler of the Elvish realm at the time of the forging of the Rings: se App. B, III p. 364 ...
Why specify any time in which he was the ruler, if there had not been any others?

And I think Galin was refering to the follwoing sentence in the entrance about 'yrch' (page 53):
Quote:
This[ the fact that the Silvian Elves spoke Sindarin] is explained by the fact that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.) ...
Which sound rather like Celebrimbor founding the realm of Eregion.

Asked by gondowe:
Quote:
The WPaP text is not earlier than the UT texts?
to answer that question I have to read the prefarce again.

Your approach is interesting. Specially the insertion in the last chapter in Of the passing of the Elves. I did in my draft tell part of the story in retrosepct at the beginning of story from UT where Galadriel and Celeborn became Lord and Lady of Eriador.
Also the idea of telling of Galadriel earlier visit when she first make contact in the second age is very atractive.

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Old 04-29-2018, 04:46 PM   #24
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Okay, in this post I will give the entrances concerned with Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrimbor, Eregion and Lorien from Words, Phrases and Passages. Since it was written about 1960, I will give it the reference:

Hh) Parma Eldalamberon XVII, Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings:
Quote:
...
S Celebrimbor, S. name of a famous craftsman, the Lord of the Elves of Eregion; he was the ruler of the Elvish realm at the time of the forging of the Rings: se App. B, III p. 364. Celebrimbor is < Celebrin-baur "silcer-fist": celebrin, adl. from celeb "silver" (not implying "made of silver" but "like silver" in hue or worth); paur, fist < kwārē [√KWĂR-, squeeze, clench] = Q quáre 'fist'. The Quenya equivalent was Telpinquar, or Telperinquar.
[among >> the Lord of; probably also the ruler >> the ruler]
...
...
...
S ...
Lothlórien, name of uncertain origin. Lórien was the name of the "gardens" and dwellingplace of the Vala Irmo (Vala of "Desire", in Elvish sense, and Master of Dreams and Visions). This would very well fit the land of Galadriel where a desirable or might-be (or might-have-been) situation was maintained. So Galadriel (who came from Valinor and whose native language was Quenya) may have interpreted it. And this is more or less how Treebeard took it - II 70, where he renders Lothlórien by 'Dreamflower'. But it may be noted that Loth is S. for 'flower', but Lórien in sense of 'dream/ing' cannot be Sindarin. Also Lothlórien was famous for its golden flowers, and by the Rohirrim called the "Goldenwood" as well as Dwimordene (Vale of Phantoms). (Also by Legolas, I 352.) That Treebeard says it was earlier called Laurelindórinan "Valley of Singing Gold". Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there - it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after the downfall of Eregion.
The Nandor name appears to have been Lóriand or Lórinand, containing lór- = Q laure, S glawar. (The Nandor here evidently had a Noldorin ingredient.) That being an alteration , after the introduction of the mellyrn by Galadriel,* of Lindóri(n)and "Vale of Land of the Singers." So Lóri(n)and was deliberately later equated with Q Lórien, but was Sindarized by prefixion of Loth-. The pure Sindarin would have been Lothlewerian(d), or ~ien(d) plural. Or if reference was the "Dream/Vision" Lothlýrian / ~lúrien.
For similar case of interpretation, see Galadriel.
* They came as a gift from Gil-galad, who had the seed from Eressea (by way of Númenor).
[original N. name >> Nandor name; Lórinand >> Lóriand or Lórinand. Cf. EQS loth 'flower'; UT 253; QL Lôrien 'King of Dreams'; GL lothli 'floret'; Etym. LOS- 'sleep', Lórien, LOT(H) 'flower', N lhoth 'flower'; Lothlórien, TI 167, 220; MR 145; WJ 403.]
...
...
...
S yrch, Orcs. ...
...
...
...
This[ the fact that the Silvian Elves spoke Sindarin] is explained by the fact that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.) Being Elves of much greater power and knowledge they usually became rulers of the Elvish companies that they gathered about them; and even when the ordinary speech of these groups was kept up their nomenclature became largely Sindarin. Many of these "wandering elves" in Eriador appear also to have been not stricly Avari but or Telerin origin: and so, if long separated, still ultimately closely akin to the Sindar: their tongues were not, therefore, alien basiclally, but of Eldarin sort, and were much assimilated to Sindarin.
...
...
...
Q Sindarin (Grey-elven) isproperly the name of the language of the Elvish inahbitants of Beleriand, the later almost drowned land west of the Blue Mountains. Quenya was the language of the Exiled High-Elves returning to Middle-earth. The Exiles, being relatively few in number, eventueally adopted a form of Sindarin: a sothern dialect (of which the purest and most archaic variety was used in Doriath ruled by Thingol). This they used in daily speech, and even adapted their own personal names ti its form. But the Sindarin of the High-elves was (naturally) somewhat affected by Quenya, and contained some Quenya elements. Sindarin is also loosely applied to the related languages of the Elves of the same origin as the 'Grey Elves' of Beleriand, who lived in Eriador and further East. [The language in Lórien, though Frodo found it hard to understand, was actually, except in a few names of persons and places, simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of ...
...
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:16 PM   #25
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I think both of these passages which concern the lordship of Eregion allow for an interpretation in sync with "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn." Neither text says who founded Eregion, and both only refer to the fact that Celebrimbor was lord there at some point. I think there is really no contradiction here at all, simply ambiguity (this seems to be a recurring statement in this thread.)

As for the proposed specific edits, I would need to see them in practice to judge how I view them. Frankly, my conception of the Second Age drafts is not concrete, as I only had brief and general directions to put my own version together. Once I can review some specific drafts for the Second Age, I will be better able to give an opinion. Going forward from there, I can deal better with their Third Age movements (such as they are) since I compiled the entirety of the drafts for the Third Age myself.

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Old 04-30-2018, 02:58 AM   #26
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Prepairing my draft of the first chapter of the second age stuff for posting is the next point on my agenda (for this projekt).

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Old 04-30-2018, 01:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
And I think Galin was refering to the follwoing sentence in the entrance about 'yrch' (page 53): Which sound rather like Celebrimbor founding the realm of Eregion.
I agree. And yep, that's one of the passages in my larger argument


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
My assumption that Galadriel and Celeborn could be Lord and Lady of Eregion for a time is based on the entrance for 'Celebrimbor' (page 42):

Why specify any time in which he was the ruler, if there had not been any others?
I see your point, but one answer might be: I note that Tolkien refers to Appendix B, page 364, directly after this WPP description in question, but at this time, Appendix B does not note the ruler of Eregion here, not in the description preceding the entries (page 363), nor in the entries themselves. So in my opinion the emphasis could rather be on the new information that Celebrimbor was lord/ruler at this time, rather than the time itself (though an important time in any case).


And so, for the later second edition, Tolkien adds (to the description about the Noldor going to Eregion and mithril and so on) "simply" that: "Celebrimbor was Lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsman; he was descended from Feanor."

For me anyway, this addition, author-published, carries a lot of weight. And from this I see no reason to think that anyone else ruled Eregion. In my opinion, with a change of wording JRRT could have here (Appendix B, second edition) tantalizing "left room" for the "Galadriel/Celeborn" tale published in Unfinished Tales ... although I realize too, one could argue that mere brevity (here) might allow it. I argue, rather, that JRRT revised the CG&C version (suggested in WPP I think), and so for the second edition Lord of the Rings, simply told the reader that the Celebrimbor found in the entries (first edition), was indeed the Lord of Eregion, and a descendant of Feanor.

This isn't the only reason why I think Galadriel as co-founder/original co-ruler of Eregion was abandoned, but again I realize my approach doesn't necessarily always fit with the guidelines of this project.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:57 PM   #28
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While you may be correct as to Tolkien's intentions behind the revision, you are also right in saying the goals of the project may not align with this. As Tolkien never laid such an intention out explicitly, there is no reason (according to our rules) to enact such a radical change to the text. However, in terms of personal canon, it is definitely a defensible position.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:22 PM   #29
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Also, apologies if I'm basically just interrupting there ...

... I just wanted to add a possible answer to the above question, but I don't mean to try to press my opinion into the project.

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Old 04-30-2018, 06:33 PM   #30
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no worries!
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