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Old 05-12-2018, 03:53 PM   #1
Findegil
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Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

This is the first draft of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in the part The Black Years.

Since in this part I found it very difficult to nominate a basic text, all snippets I used are marked by an editing mark with source information.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

CGC-SL-zz for Concerning Galadriel and Celebron, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
BY-HL-08<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
>CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron, … for a stronghold as a counter to the threat of the Númenórean landings CGC-SL-03{ [this is dated c. 1000 in the Tale of Years]}. When he felt himself to be secure … wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.>
CGC-SL-04<Of the Rings of Power Seeing the desolation of the world, … and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway … those have who are beyond the Sea?'
It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, … and to bring them under his vigilance.>
CGC-SL-05<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, … on the other side of the Misty Mountains.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-06{In a note to the text it is explained that }Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. CGC-SL-07{Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the}The name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, … It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.'CGC-SL-09{"
In "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" I have retained the name Lórinand throughout, although when it was written Lórinand was intended as the original and ancient Nandorin name of the region, and the story of the introduction of the mallorns by Galadriel had not yet been devised.}] This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin CGC-SL-10{ [The Silmarillion p.94]}; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; CGC-SL-11{6} CGC-SL-12{"}but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, … Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13{[as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)]}. But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. CGC-SL-14{ [The cozening of the smiths of Eregion by Sauron, and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in Of the Rings of Power, but there is there no mention of Galadriel].}
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ({"}thus anticipating the Istari{"}) or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. … with outward patience and courtesy. CGC-SL-15{[}No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.{]}[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-16{In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although}Although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, … towards the end of the eighth century (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17{, p.185}). But it had no known centre. … and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë. CGC-SL-18{ (In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was Annatar, the Lord of Gifts; but that name is not mentioned here.) The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor, {"}but this is not decisive, since Aulë existed before the 'Building of Arda', and the probability is that Sauron was in fact one of the Aulëan Maiar, corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19{" With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-20{In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "}At the beginning of the Second Age {he [}Sauron{]} was still beautiful to look at, … is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.{"}] So great became his hold on the Mírdain … passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her CGC-SL-21{Amroth and }Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.>
Some comments to editing:

BY-HL-08: That title might not be perfect for what is to follow, but it is the one Tolkien gave to what I used as the main source, and thus be necessity the text is a bit focused on the pair.

CGC-SL-01: I take up the text where I left it in the chapter The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

CGC-SL-02, CGC-SL-03, CGC-SL-09, CGC-SL-10, CGC-SL-13, CGC-SL-14, CGC-SL-17, CGC-SL-18, CGC-SL-019: A Comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

CGC-SL-04: This 3 paragraphs from Of the Rings of Power where even referred to by Christopher Tolkien as a fuller description of how Sauron cozened the Noldor of Eregion.

CGC-SL-05: Back to Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn

CGC-SL-06: Even so this note is not given as quote, we should include the information.

CGC-SL-07: This part of the note is to much an editorial speak as to keep it.

CGC-SL-08: I am not sure if this quotation marks should be removed. Are they separating Christopher Tolkiens text from quote of the original text of his father or were they as others in this not marking a kind of ‘meaning’ for the elvish word?

CGC-SL-11: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

CGC-SL-12: Here the quotation marks have to go, since they separate a quote from JRR Tolkiens original text from the reconstruction of Christopher.

CGC-SL-15: Here I expact that ArcusCalion will disagree with my treatment of the text. I lifted a kind of comment of Christopher into the main text, making it a comment of the supposed in legend author or editor.

CGC-SL-16: Equally if we take the passage under CGC-SL-015 we should include this note. And I think this is the right place for it.

CGC-SL-20: If this footnote of Christopher should be keep as a footnote or not might be discussed, but since the text is originally JRR Tolkiens we do not have the authorial problem that we faced with the famous Yavanna as a tree footnote.

CGC-SL-21: Since Amroth is in our version not the son of Galadriel, she should not take him with her on this journey (I would rather expect that she could meet him in Lórinand). This passage shows as well, that Celebrian was already born, either near lake Nenuial or in Eregion.
I would also like to discuss here the idea of gondowe to mention Galadriels earlier visits in the course of her journey in the first age. I agree that the Nandor in the vale of Anduin were the most probable destination of that journey, but we do not have any prove. We have a good hint, that she crossed Hitheaglir, and therefore we included that in the earlier chapter. But in the case of an earlier visit to Lórien, I would rather give the reader the freeness to combine that form himself.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:01 AM   #2
ArcusCalion
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Firstly, In my version of the story, I placed the second part of the Elessar text at the very beginning of this chapter. This may not be the best place for it, but there are few other places it can go. The only other chapter where we could place it is in Of the Rings of Power but this may be difficult, considering that most of the chapter is consumed with the war in Eriador. Thus, I placed it here at the beginning. Did you place it elsewhere Fin?

CGC-SL-08: I would remove the quotations. They are certainly not describing the meaning of the word, so there is no reason to keep them.

CGC-SL-15: You are correct, I disagree wholeheartedly. This is CT speculating about the motivations of a character based on his father's text, and we have no right to assign his personal speculations to our in-universe narrator. I would remove the comment entirely.

CGC-SL-18: I Actually edited this a bit differently, to keep the name Annatar:
Quote:
... Istari and a fair name: Artano ‘high-smith,’ or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë{.}, CGC-SL-17.5 {(In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was}and Annatar, the Lord of Gifts {; but that name is not mentioned here.)}. CGC-SL-18 {The note goes on to say that} Galadriel ....
This is simply to match with the quote given above that the name he took was Annatar.

CGC-SL-20: I like this footnote, I think it is worth keeping.

CGC-SL-21: I agree about the Amroth deletion, but II am confused about your statement about telling more of her journeys. Why do we need to? Where is this information coming from?

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-14-2018 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:25 PM   #3
Findegil
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About the Elessar: If this second tale about the Elessar is to be taken up at all, then the place for it is exactly where you point it to be. So even if I have some doubt about taking it up at all, I would like to see your editing it into the text and edits you made in the text. I think I have to re-read our discussion in the Earendil chapter, to remember what we said their about the two versions and specially about the ‘first’ Elessar and Enerdhil.

CGC-SL-15: Okay we will remove commenting the part of the text. But I think we agree to keep the footnote under CGC-SL-16 to CGC-SL-19.

CGC-SL-18: I don’t feel that the addition of Anatar here as absolutely necessary, but I am okay with it.

CGC-SL-21: My remark was based on gondowe’s posting in the thread about Galadriel and Celeborn:
Quote:
But turning to the movements of G and C. Evidently they are very difficult to follow, but the temporal line of Findegil, is, for me, correct.

And for the first age could be inserted in the texts, in my opinion, with few alterations.
-First using a alter in the sentence in Of the realms of Beleriand stated above.
-Second inserting at the end of OtRoD a sentence that Celeborn escaped from its ruin.
-Third at the end of the QS in the subsection Of the passing of the Elves inserting a compilation of the K text of Findegil... and there only with an invented clarification of few words that previously Celeborn had returned to Doriath (for me is the only way and so I had done it.)
-Then in the Second age, when Galadriel is said that contacted with Lindorinand clarificate with a sentence from Findegil's text D (I think) that she had passed across the mountains before the end of the first age.
Especially the last sentence in the quote trigged my remark. The text D that gondowe mentioned must be a mistake (see his own doubts), because text D is the story of Galadriels independent ship journey from Valinor. But nonetheless we agreed in that thread that Galadriels remark in LotR about crossing the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin was most naturally interpreted as meaning the Hithaeglir, since that where the mountains that the Hobbits had just crossed. Tacking the circumstances of that sentence farther into account the most natural destination for this journey in the first age in which Galadriel crossed the Hithaeglir would be Lórien (and exactly in that way the sentence was meant, when JRR Tolkien wrote it, but the back story later changed drastically.)
Howsoever I think we agree that no such remark as gondowe wished to include is wanted in our version.

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Old 05-14-2018, 03:04 PM   #4
ArcusCalion
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Here is how I edited the Elessar, which I think we should give, since we have no reason to leave it out. We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up. Therefore I have done so with some minor edits:
Quote:
CGC-SL-00.5 <GC Elessar Long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion, Galadriel CGC-SL-00.6 {came there, and she} said to Celebrimbor, the chief of the Elven-smiths: ‘I am grieved in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade that I have loved, so that the land of my dwelling is filled with regret that no Spring can redress.’
‘How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?’ said Celebrimbor. ‘Will you then pass over Sea?’
‘Nay,’ she said. ‘Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier.’
‘What would you then?’ said Celebrimbor.
‘I would have trees and grass about me that do not die – here in the land that is mine,’ she answered. ‘What has become of the skill of the Eldar?’ And Celebrimbor said: ‘Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.’
‘They have passed over Sea,’ said Galadriel, ‘with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?’
‘That is its fate, I deem,’ said Celebrimbor. ‘But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.’ CGC-SL-00.7 {But he did not say to Galadriel that be himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned.} Therefore he took thought, and began a long delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil, but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it. Radiant nonetheless was the Elessar of Celebrimbor; and he set it within a great brooch of silver in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings. Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to CGC-SL-00.8 {the Forest}[Eregion].>
CGC-SL-00.5: This is where the text begins for me, since we are not taking up the part where the ambiguity is introduced.
CGC-SL-00.6: At this point in the narrative she is already living there.
CGC-SL-00.7: Since in our version Celebrimbor is not an elf of Gondolin, this must be removed.
CGC-SL-00.8: At this point Galadriel is living in Eregion, as it must be. When she is living in Lorien, Celebrimbor is dead or estranged from her, so it cannot be at that time. Therefore I changed forest to Eregion, since that is where she was dwelling.

CGC-SL-15: I agree to all those footnotes, yes.

CGC-SL-21: I think that it is best to leave it ambiguous, since we do not need to invent narratives to explain things when we can simply leave it up to the deduction of the reader.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:42 AM   #5
Galin
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Hmm, for me, a major factor regarding the Elessar Text is that it presents two internal variations, neither of which is known to be correct by anyone in Middle-earth. Again, I'm not wholly familiar with the guidelines here, but whatever they are, this seems to me to be a step beyond. To my mind it would be similar to saying the form Galadhriel is "incorrect" and therefore should not be represented anywhere in your text...

... when the idea is obviously that it is "incorrect" in some sense, but from an internal perspective it's easily acceptable, with internal reasons given.

In my opinion these sort of obscurities and purposed variations represent Tolkien's art of world-building -- with the natural confusions or variations that (he thinks) might arise. I think they were important to him. For me they are the added "pepper" to the soup of consistency, echoing certain real world "textual scenarios", so to speak.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:13 PM   #6
Findegil
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Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up.
Re-rading the thread “Celebrimbor” I don’t think that we came to this conclusion. But nonetheless the story of Celebrimbor making the second Elessar should be included. But the questions remain open for me if he was also the smith of the first and if the story of Olorin bringing the stone back is really out. Both have of course some implications on the edit of this part of the Elessar story here. So probably we should resume the discussion in that thread first.
However we might decide on this, working with the integration of the Elessar text I found some other nice variants for the edit of this chapter. So let’s first clear the Elessar issue and then discuss here farther.

I fully agree to Galins argument.

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