Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves) - Page 65 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I did toy with the idea of Vampires who could convert innocent villagers into their own kind a while back. The game would need to start with just one Vampire, but even then it seemed to me that it would be very difficult for the villagers to win, and impossible without the availability of double-lynchings.

Actually, the vampire sounds sort of like Lmp's evil wizard role from the "Taur-in-Gaurhoth Scenarios You'd Like to See" thread.

Quote:

Having said that, we could have a vampire if we can work out how it'd work without unbalancing the game to either side.

A Ranger who's able to change vampire victims into ordos? A new Healer role who does the same thing, only without the other Ranger qualities?

So, umm, I think I'm crazy enough to go three in a row, unless the game fills and someone who hasn't been around wants a spot.

Nogrod · 03-29-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I did toy with the idea of Vampires who could convert innocent villagers into their own kind a while back. The game would need to start with just one Vampire, but even then it seemed to me that it would be very difficult for the villagers to win, and impossible without the availability of double-lynchings.
-------
Although a three way game with Werewolves and a Vampire who could convert others into Vampires might be interesting, if completely confusing, if it could be worked out properly ...

If we had a game big enough (not too big anyhow), and the vampires would be contesting with the wolves?

We might f.ex. have a rule, that only those villains outnumbering the others, are allowed the "night-kill"? In this case the wolves would have the edge in the beginning, but if vampires would pass them in numbers, the wolves would be in a very sticky situation indeed. A kind of seer-wolf could do the trick to balance it somewhat. A seer-wolf would dream as a seer, but be revealed her/his dream-targets vampireness only. One could think of an automatic upgrading here, the W-S having "upgrades" to her/his dreams automatically, if someone s/he has dreamed of, had turned to a vampire later on?

Or the cursed villager, turning only to a wolf, not to a vampire: if the vampires would try to turn that person to a vampire, they would just be informed, that it didn't happen? During the days, both wolves and vampires would anyhow just have to make it with their tongues...

Anyway: the vampires ability to increase their numbers is a strong asset as the game goes forwards and should be balanced in someway...

The villagers, anyhow, seem to be the ones, that will really have the hard times... Maybe something to compensate to them also? The real seer having auotomatic upgrades? A PM'd Seer's discovery of innocence to all innocent villagers, when that comes around? Or maybe even all of the Seer's information passed on to all villagers - in that case no automatic upgrades, I guess = you couldn't believe everything the seer has learned after one or two days?

Or two hunters? Three? (a +15 game would be needed, I suppose) Maybe we could have different kinds of hunters? 1 normal (having to suspect one villain, of the kind that comes to kill her/him), 1 multiple-villain-hunter (able to suspect two or three villains at the same time, but only applying, if the attackers are of the kind - vampire or a wolf - s/he suspects) and 1 "Rambo-class"-hunter (not needing to suspect anyone: just dragging any attacker with her/him to death - the attacker killed could be randomly decided by the Mod)?

It seems fascinating - and very complicated! This, if thought through with care, could be a really challenging game. But the threat of one party or another being too overwhelming lures around...

EDIT: 500 messages!

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 04:12 PM

Another balance...maybe:

If a vampire targets a wolf, vampire dies. If a vampire attacks a gifted, nothing happens to the gifted AND the gifted learns the vampire's identity.

Or is that pushing the balance too far against the vampires?

JennyHallu · 03-29-2006, 04:15 PM

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here?

I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first.

Nogrod · 03-29-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up.

I don't know about the tone or intent of others participating on this discussion about the vampires. I have only toyed about the possibility of this kind of game - in some future, not probably a very near one, because I believe, this requires some serious thought first.

It sounds interesting - if it could be well and balancedly organized. I have no intention in asking Farael to go on with this wild idea in an instant, in a game that after all is his game! That's not something that I could, or even would like to do...

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here?

I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first.

Aww, confusion is fun.

But seriously, you have a point. And the vampire is awfully similar to Elempi's confusing evil wizard. That game is going to be very, very complex.

Players:

Caranlondien
JennyHallu
Nogrod?
Diamond?
Grendelien
Saucepan Wolf
Findëasëa
Celuien (un-question-marked myself.

)
Zali

So we have 9 (?) so far. Maybe the village won't be large enough for the new role anyway.

Farael · 03-29-2006, 04:53 PM

How about this?

(We'd need a large village) The game starts with four wereorcs and one vampire. The vampire may choose one villager every night to "transform" but only if this transformation will not put the number of vampires over half the number of wereorcs (rounding up)

Effectively, this means that you can only have two vampires, and that only if there are three or four wereorcs.

So, first day we have four wereorcs and one vampire.

Second day I assume it'll be four wereorcs and now two vampires, the vampires can't get anyone else.

Third day the villagers lynch a wereorc, but given the rounding up two vampires are still allowed.

Fourth day the villagers lynch a vampire. Fourth night, the vampire chooses someone else.

Fifth day, the living vampire already choose his next victim, so it's back to three wereorcs and two vampires, but when the day is done the villagers lynch another wereorc. Now the ratio is two-two, so should the villagers get another vampire, the remaining one can't transform anyone else.

BUT.

If the vampire tries to convert a wereorc nothing happens yet both learn each other's identity. If the wereorc decides to attack the vampire, the vampire is kiled.

If the vampire tries to convert a gifted, their role is revealed to the gifted and the fact that the other person was "gifted" is revealed to the vampire, but not what gift he/she has.

Wouldn't the game be over too soon? well, to avoid needing a 30+ village which can get far too hectic, I'd say that the vampire is "smarter" than a wereorc and thus he lets the wereorcs do the dirty job while he kicks back and selects his allies carefully. Once all the wereorcs are dead, and should the vampire still be alive, he starts getting a nightly kill.

Still, we'd need a village of about 20 people for it to work out.... and that's only if you all want to try it out.

Oh, and trying the role of the vampries would mean that we are not doing the Shaman thing.... that way we cah see if a game with vampires is fun or not and on a later day we can do the same experiment for a game with a shaman.

Legolas in spandex · 03-29-2006, 05:42 PM

Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-29-2006, 05:56 PM

That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael.

My speculation about vampires was as an alternative to werewolves, rather than as an additional team. Even then, it would need to be carefully worked out and might ultimately prove to be unworkable.

All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations.

Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming.

How about were-wyrms? They're canon.

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 05:57 PM

All looks good to me, Farael. I like the cap on the number of vampires. Keeps them from winning just by transforming all of the ordos.

I'd like to give it a try, if possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas

Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Werewolf.

This is the recruiting/admin thread for most of the Tol-in-Gaurhoth games, so if you're looking to sign up for a game, you've come to the right place.

Any questions, ask away.

Farael · 03-29-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael.

I guess us young ones are more used to change

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPM

All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations.

Well, I wouldn't really be giving anything to the others to compensate. Let me state it more simply.

There is a cap on the number of vampires, which is half the number of wereX rounded up. The vampires can only be more than the cap number should the wereX get lynched but not the vampires.

The vampires don't get a nightly kill untill all the wereX are gone.

A vampire trying to convert a wereX gets himself revealed to the wereX
A vampire trying to convert a gifted reveals himself to the gifted and in turn the vampire knows he has chosen a gifted (but not what gifted)

A wereX trying to devour a vampire does it as if it was a villager.

Vampires don't get nightly kills until all the wereX's are gone.

The only way it'd work is with a large village though. The vampires are unlike the werebears in that they don't get a nightly kill every night, and the only way they can rid themselves of the wereX's is by the "conventional" methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPM

Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming.
How about were-wyrms? They're canon.

Ok.... were-wyrms in a dwarven cave?

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-29-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farael

I guess us young ones are more used to change

And us old 'uns are wise and experienced enough to know that the old ways of doing things are the best ...

Personally, I think that all this "if X does A, then Y can't do B unless Z does C" kind of thing is far too rulebound and is only likely to detract from the game, even assuming that it doesn't unbalance it.

That's not to say that you shouldn't try it, but it doesn't really appeal to me.

Farael · 03-29-2006, 06:54 PM

Well Saucer, then I guess we shall se what the others think. Still, if no more people sign up for the game, we wont have enough players for a far-fetched new thing.

Nothing is set in stone, not even the wereorcs =( now it's either wereorcs in elven village or werewyrm in dwarven hold =P Point is, NOT WEREWOLVES WITH HUMANS.

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 07:12 PM

Well, I don't mind having something complicated thrown into the mix, just to shake things up.

That said, a back-to-basics standard game would also be fun.

I like the alliteration of were-wyrms, though there's nothing wrong with a were-orc. Other than being a were-orc, of course.

Nogrod · 03-29-2006, 10:56 PM

Farael!

Just remove that questionmark from my name. Those hideous werecats killed me the first night in WWJ... So I'm in.

Diamond18 · 03-30-2006, 12:08 AM

Well, I'm staying mostly out of the vampire discussion since I'm not even commited to playing this game yet (after Valier's WWJ is done I'm going to be setting up my own game, don't know if I should juggle modding and playing) but I thought I'd toss my two cents in about wereorcs.

I like the idea. I don't find it underwhelming or icky. Plus you get to have an Elven village, which is cool, and Orcs are a good counterpoint.

I don't care for the term Werewyrms. Weredragons maybe, but Werewyrms just makes me think of mutant nightcrawlers.

At any rate, this is all just window dressings, so it's not that important, I just thought I'd opine.

Nogrod · 03-30-2006, 10:15 AM

At last I have had time to see, what actually is going on in here.

Firstly, we should see for realities: if Legolas is joining, we will be having 10 people attending so far. It does not seem to be a 25-player megagame, starting on Monday, with lots of new characters etc...

I would back The Saucepan Man in that we shouldn't try to revolutionize things too much with the same trial (I'm one of those oldies too...

). But I would be interested in trying something. Both the new "Shaman"-stuff or the Vampire-thing could be interesting. I'm just afraid, that both of those things might make some more trouble to the villagers.

With the pace of recruiting players, we should probably try something with the seer. I'm not sure, if Farael's concern with the Seer having too much power is justified, and his suggestion of spreading the Seer's dreams clearly weakens her/him (there are possibilities for the Seer then also, as Sauce mentioned, but still). But how about, if we strengthen the villagers defence in the case of Seer dreams going around and about, by letting just the ranger and the hunter to PM? Sauce suspected, that they would be easier targets to the wolves then. Maybe, maybe not? If they play in somewhat a "wolvish style" during the days, then perhaps not? What they would gain, would be: trust, new ideas and sharing of concerns + possible tactical things together... Worth trying methinks.

NOTE: only the ranger and the hunter PM'ing - so they wouldn't know the seer and the Seer wouldn't know them (I appreciate Sauce's point about gifteds being in the dark, but I guess the hunter anyhow, is a "lonely wolf"...

).

The rest is only for those interested in speculation about a possible Vampire-game someday in the future:

It could be done. And would not be too complicated. Just would need lots of people to play...

One vampire to begin with, trying to make a friend for her/himself to begin with. Then laying low, trying to influence the game during the daytime to get the village rid of the Weres - and hoping for survival, both day and night, as villagers. If managing it to the end of the wolves, then s/he or they would be falling on the villagers - and the game continues for awhile still. Not too complicated I think? But would need quite a many villagers...

I think Farael's idea of four wolves a bit overstretched. Three wolves + a chance for the one vampire to try and recruit one friend (s/he has quite a chance to miss that one and be revealed to someone) during the nights, so long as no wolves have been lynched (or until s/he has one). Then finito for vampire-recruiting (so max. 2 Vamps for the game).

At this scenario, we would have - in the best/worst possible scene, after the night 1 (one innocent lynched day 1 and the vampire succeeding night 1 + wolf kill on innocent night 1) - 5 "baddies" (3W + 2V), and 2 innocents dead + 1 turned to a Vampire. From the initial players, 8 have been "used" here. So something like 20 villagers required to make a balanced game? Comments?

Nogrod · 03-30-2006, 10:24 AM

To the other, more practical issues:

Double lynches: No (if the village is small or medium-sized).

Deadline 12 AM GMT: Ok. (it's 3AM here, but as I see the value of those extra hours in America, that's fine by me)

Retractable votes: Always fun and adding excitement, but I can play without them also.

Wereorcs vs. -wyrms vs. whatever: Wereorcs are just fine.

Celuien · 03-30-2006, 05:23 PM

Back to practical matters:

I vote for:

No double lynches in a small village (under 12).
Retractable votes. Never been in a game with them. Should be interesting.
12 AM GMT is good.

Not sure when the game is starting, but if it starts soon, this is notice that I'll be away on April 7 to attend a special concert.

JennyHallu · 03-30-2006, 05:38 PM

No double lynches.

12 AM GMT is lovely.

Retractable votes are all kinds of fun.

I'll be away April 8 to judge at a speech and debate tournament. I won't be around much on April 16? (Easter) as I am singing in church and then we are having peopleses over.

Farael · 03-30-2006, 05:55 PM

Well, I'd like it better if we had 15 people to begin with.... so go!! Invite more players!! Sadly my game is right before LMP's which promises to be epic and so many people are waiting for that one =( but it's ok, we'll have a blast anyway =P

Re: Double lynches: No
Re: Retractable votes: No unless there is a 65% majority in the village saying otherwise
Re:WereX: Wereorcs

and we'll ignore SPM's comments

Re: 12 AM GMT: Seems it'll be fine

Re:Co-mod: I will need somoene who can be here 12 AM GMT almost every day. My times are volatile at best and while a 12 AM GMT deadline (6 PM over here) works like a charm, I might not be around.

Nogrod has volunteered but he said he might not always be around. Is there anyone who knows will be around (almost) for sure?

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-30-2006, 06:04 PM

I still fail to see how any Elf worth his salt should not be able to deal with three Orcs breaking into his house at night. They just ain't fearsome.

But my views are not really relevant now as I am afraid that I am becoming rather busy at work and so will reluctantly have to pull out of the game. Sorry Farael.

Farael · 03-30-2006, 06:54 PM

Caranlondien:
JennyHallu:
Nogrod:
Diamond:?
Grendelien:
Findëasëa
Celuien:
Zali

Am I forgetting anyone? also, Valier has volunteered to co-mod as she says she'll be available. Hope that's ok with you, Nogrod =)

JennyHallu · 03-30-2006, 08:12 PM

I think we should attempt to confirm in some way Grendelien and Findësëa are still participating. I have not seen that they have returned to the board since they signed up.

Nilpaurion Felagund · 03-31-2006, 02:00 AM

Farael is very convincing. I'm in, although during the first game week I'd be back to my normally confusing self, with a dash of brilliance every other DAY or so, perhaps. Hehe.

Too bad Sauce pulled out. Whither goest now my revenge?

Weregilds are nice.

I've seen the evils of double lynchings in my game, so no. Deadline is sehr excellent, 8 pm local. And I don't exaclty relish retractable votes, but I can be swayed by the majority.

Shaman looks interesting. The others are quite confusing.

Formendacil · 03-31-2006, 02:10 AM

Put me down as a maybe... it all depends how long Valier's game runs- and whether or not there are more worthy new players who deserve a spot.

But otherwise, I'm in...

Kitanna · 03-31-2006, 09:40 AM

I'd like to play too, but first I have to see how long Valier's game is.

Caranlondien · 03-31-2006, 11:16 AM

I'm in favor of trying out the Shaman role... Vampires look like fun, but I think more thought has to go into them before trying them out. And I'm not sure what to think about retractable votes. Right now my vote is against them, but if the majority wants them, that's cool too.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 03-31-2006, 11:52 AM

I really, really would like to play, but I don't know if I should. Confusticate and bebother all this springtime busyness!

Okay, I'll play if it's fine with other players that you'll see me much less than usually. I don't want to steal a spot from someone who could concentrate on WWing better than me right now, but I wouldn't want to miss Farael's game either.

And now, some other things. If anyone is interested in my opinions at this point, here they are:

-I'd love to try out retractable votes.

-I'd prefer keeping the baddies as werewolves. Orcs are almost like humans, so the concept of a man turning into an orc at nights doesn't feel as scary as a man turning into a wolf. Besides, wolves are more graceful. Becaming an orc after the sunset reminds me of princess Fiona in Shrek.

Weredragons on the other hand... they must be quite tiny dragons in order to perform their nightly kills without that anyone sees them. However, ultimately it's Farael's choice, so whatever he decides, it's fine with me.

-So the deadline is 12 midnight GMT, right? Also, is that 12:00 GMT 0 or GMT +1 due to DST? In any case, that's a very decent deadline, thank you.

Farael · 03-31-2006, 09:02 PM

I'm dead tired so I'll leave discussion for later, I just wanted to update the player's list

Caranlondien:
JennyHallu:Doomsday prophet
Nogrod: unemployed barber.
Diamond:?
Grendelien:
Findëasëa
Celuien:lampwright
Zali
NIlp
Formen?
Kitanna
Lhuna????????<--- If not, I won't be her lover anymore *ahem* Oh, hey Nilp, what are you doing in Canada?? =P

Kitanna · 03-31-2006, 09:36 PM

Since I have been killed off in Valier's game I can defiantly play in this one.

Grendelien · 04-01-2006, 02:30 PM

I'm so sorry I've been away for a couple days...I definitely am still playing. As soon as this weekend's madness is over, I'll be able to fully dedicate myself to werewolfing!

JennyHallu · 04-01-2006, 02:32 PM

That's great...I just worried since I hadn't seen you. Glad you're still excited about it! Can't wait...when are we starting, Farael?

Farael · 04-01-2006, 03:21 PM

I don't want to start the game with fewer than 15 players.... if we get to that number before Monday, we'll start on Monday (night phase 1, so villagers get to start posting on Tuesday). If not, as soon as we get 15 players.

Grendelien · 04-01-2006, 03:42 PM

Oh, how rude of me...I don't know where my scattered brain has been...Thanks, all, for the greetings!

Nogrod · 04-02-2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farael

Caranlondien:
JennyHallu:
Nogrod:
Diamond:?
Grendelien:
Findëasëa
Celuien:
Zali
NIlp
Formen?
Kitanna
Lhuna????????

If we add Spawn to this, it will make 13. Sleepy has promised to think about this one too. Should we try to PM-recruit the last two in, so that we could start tomorrow (Monday)? Lommy is out from the WWJ-game, but has a big school-project, and so won't probably be joining this one.

Should we go for some occupations? That I think kind of depends on the overall setting of the village - elves, humans...?

What's your decision Farael?

JennyHallu · 04-02-2006, 05:45 AM

Well...I won't be around to help recruit. Must go remind my husband he's supposed to wake up in a bit, go to church, and then fix my car because somehow I've done something bad to the muffler. But hopefully I will be here tonight and I can see what you guys have accomplished.

Farael · 04-02-2006, 12:11 PM

Re: Occupations

Wereorcs it'll be in an elven village. It will be on the first age and epic roles (such as Silmaril keeper of Feanor follower ) will be allowed.... as long as they are deemed funny enough =D

Re: Starting date

Unless we get Formen, Diamond and Lhuna confirmed and three more players before about 12 AM GMT, i'll pull the starting date back to Tuesday.

Celuien · 04-02-2006, 02:00 PM

Occupation:

I will be a lampwright.

Nogrod · 04-02-2006, 03:16 PM

Occupation:

I will be an unemployed barber.

As the elves do not seem to grow a beard, I must be a victim of a poor career-advisoring at school... Although in the Middle-ages the people caring for any operations at the battlefield, or otherwise, were the barbers - the only guys with sharp blades anyway.

03-29-2006, 04:12 PM	#2563
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,795	Another balance...maybe: If a vampire targets a wolf, vampire dies. If a vampire attacks a gifted, nothing happens to the gifted AND the gifted learns the vampire's identity. Or is that pushing the balance too far against the vampires? __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

03-29-2006, 04:15 PM	#2564
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this... But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here? I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

03-29-2006, 04:53 PM	#2567
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	How about this? (We'd need a large village) The game starts with four wereorcs and one vampire. The vampire may choose one villager every night to "transform" but only if this transformation will not put the number of vampires over half the number of wereorcs (rounding up) Effectively, this means that you can only have two vampires, and that only if there are three or four wereorcs. So, first day we have four wereorcs and one vampire. Second day I assume it'll be four wereorcs and now two vampires, the vampires can't get anyone else. Third day the villagers lynch a wereorc, but given the rounding up two vampires are still allowed. Fourth day the villagers lynch a vampire. Fourth night, the vampire chooses someone else. Fifth day, the living vampire already choose his next victim, so it's back to three wereorcs and two vampires, but when the day is done the villagers lynch another wereorc. Now the ratio is two-two, so should the villagers get another vampire, the remaining one can't transform anyone else. BUT. If the vampire tries to convert a wereorc nothing happens yet both learn each other's identity. If the wereorc decides to attack the vampire, the vampire is kiled. If the vampire tries to convert a gifted, their role is revealed to the gifted and the fact that the other person was "gifted" is revealed to the vampire, but not what gift he/she has. Wouldn't the game be over too soon? well, to avoid needing a 30+ village which can get far too hectic, I'd say that the vampire is "smarter" than a wereorc and thus he lets the wereorcs do the dirty job while he kicks back and selects his allies carefully. Once all the wereorcs are dead, and should the vampire still be alive, he starts getting a nightly kill. Still, we'd need a village of about 20 people for it to work out.... and that's only if you all want to try it out. Oh, and trying the role of the vampries would mean that we are not doing the Shaman thing.... that way we cah see if a game with vampires is fun or not and on a later day we can do the same experiment for a game with a shaman. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-29-2006, 05:42 PM	#2568
Legolas in spandex Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 106	Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled. __________________ "I want to die in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

03-29-2006, 05:56 PM	#2569
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael. My speculation about vampires was as an alternative to werewolves, rather than as an additional team. Even then, it would need to be carefully worked out and might ultimately prove to be unworkable. All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations. Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming. How about were-wyrms? They're canon. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 03-29-2006 at 06:01 PM.

03-29-2006, 06:54 PM	#2573
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	Well Saucer, then I guess we shall se what the others think. Still, if no more people sign up for the game, we wont have enough players for a far-fetched new thing. Nothing is set in stone, not even the wereorcs =( now it's either wereorcs in elven village or werewyrm in dwarven hold =P Point is, NOT WEREWOLVES WITH HUMANS. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-29-2006, 07:12 PM	#2574
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,795	Well, I don't mind having something complicated thrown into the mix, just to shake things up. That said, a back-to-basics standard game would also be fun. I like the alliteration of were-wyrms, though there's nothing wrong with a were-orc. Other than being a were-orc, of course. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

03-29-2006, 10:56 PM	#2575
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	Farael! Just remove that questionmark from my name. Those hideous werecats killed me the first night in WWJ... So I'm in. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

03-30-2006, 12:08 AM	#2576
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	Well, I'm staying mostly out of the vampire discussion since I'm not even commited to playing this game yet (after Valier's WWJ is done I'm going to be setting up my own game, don't know if I should juggle modding and playing) but I thought I'd toss my two cents in about wereorcs. I like the idea. I don't find it underwhelming or icky. Plus you get to have an Elven village, which is cool, and Orcs are a good counterpoint. I don't care for the term Werewyrms. Weredragons maybe, but Werewyrms just makes me think of mutant nightcrawlers. At any rate, this is all just window dressings, so it's not that important, I just thought I'd opine. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

03-30-2006, 10:15 AM	#2577
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	At last I have had time to see, what actually is going on in here. Firstly, we should see for realities: if Legolas is joining, we will be having 10 people attending so far. It does not seem to be a 25-player megagame, starting on Monday, with lots of new characters etc... I would back The Saucepan Man in that we shouldn't try to revolutionize things too much with the same trial (I'm one of those oldies too... ). But I would be interested in trying something. Both the new "Shaman"-stuff or the Vampire-thing could be interesting. I'm just afraid, that both of those things might make some more trouble to the villagers. With the pace of recruiting players, we should probably try something with the seer. I'm not sure, if Farael's concern with the Seer having too much power is justified, and his suggestion of spreading the Seer's dreams clearly weakens her/him (there are possibilities for the Seer then also, as Sauce mentioned, but still). But how about, if we strengthen the villagers defence in the case of Seer dreams going around and about, by letting just the ranger and the hunter to PM? Sauce suspected, that they would be easier targets to the wolves then. Maybe, maybe not? If they play in somewhat a "wolvish style" during the days, then perhaps not? What they would gain, would be: trust, new ideas and sharing of concerns + possible tactical things together... Worth trying methinks. NOTE: only the ranger and the hunter PM'ing - so they wouldn't know the seer and the Seer wouldn't know them (I appreciate Sauce's point about gifteds being in the dark, but I guess the hunter anyhow, is a "lonely wolf"... ). The rest is only for those interested in speculation about a possible Vampire-game someday in the future: It could be done. And would not be too complicated. Just would need lots of people to play... One vampire to begin with, trying to make a friend for her/himself to begin with. Then laying low, trying to influence the game during the daytime to get the village rid of the Weres - and hoping for survival, both day and night, as villagers. If managing it to the end of the wolves, then s/he or they would be falling on the villagers - and the game continues for awhile still. Not too complicated I think? But would need quite a many villagers... I think Farael's idea of four wolves a bit overstretched. Three wolves + a chance for the one vampire to try and recruit one friend (s/he has quite a chance to miss that one and be revealed to someone) during the nights, so long as no wolves have been lynched (or until s/he has one). Then finito for vampire-recruiting (so max. 2 Vamps for the game). At this scenario, we would have - in the best/worst possible scene, after the night 1 (one innocent lynched day 1 and the vampire succeeding night 1 + wolf kill on innocent night 1) - 5 "baddies" (3W + 2V), and 2 innocents dead + 1 turned to a Vampire. From the initial players, 8 have been "used" here. So something like 20 villagers required to make a balanced game? Comments? __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... Last edited by Nogrod; 03-30-2006 at 10:27 AM.

03-30-2006, 10:24 AM	#2578
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	To the other, more practical issues: Double lynches: No (if the village is small or medium-sized). Deadline 12 AM GMT: Ok. (it's 3AM here, but as I see the value of those extra hours in America, that's fine by me) Retractable votes: Always fun and adding excitement, but I can play without them also. Wereorcs vs. -wyrms vs. whatever: Wereorcs are just fine. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

03-30-2006, 05:23 PM	#2579
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,795	Back to practical matters: I vote for: No double lynches in a small village (under 12). Retractable votes. Never been in a game with them. Should be interesting. 12 AM GMT is good. Not sure when the game is starting, but if it starts soon, this is notice that I'll be away on April 7 to attend a special concert. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

03-30-2006, 05:38 PM	#2580
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	No double lynches. 12 AM GMT is lovely. Retractable votes are all kinds of fun. I'll be away April 8 to judge at a speech and debate tournament. I won't be around much on April 16? (Easter) as I am singing in church and then we are having peopleses over. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

03-30-2006, 05:55 PM	#2581
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	Well, I'd like it better if we had 15 people to begin with.... so go!! Invite more players!! Sadly my game is right before LMP's which promises to be epic and so many people are waiting for that one =( but it's ok, we'll have a blast anyway =P Re: Double lynches: No Re: Retractable votes: No unless there is a 65% majority in the village saying otherwise Re:WereX: Wereorcs and we'll ignore SPM's comments Re: 12 AM GMT: Seems it'll be fine Re:Co-mod: I will need somoene who can be here 12 AM GMT almost every day. My times are volatile at best and while a 12 AM GMT deadline (6 PM over here) works like a charm, I might not be around. Nogrod has volunteered but he said he might not always be around. Is there anyone who knows will be around (almost) for sure? __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-30-2006, 06:04 PM	#2582
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	I still fail to see how any Elf worth his salt should not be able to deal with three Orcs breaking into his house at night. They just ain't fearsome. But my views are not really relevant now as I am afraid that I am becoming rather busy at work and so will reluctantly have to pull out of the game. Sorry Farael. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-30-2006, 06:54 PM	#2583
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	New player's list Caranlondien: JennyHallu: Nogrod: Diamond:? Grendelien: Findëasëa Celuien: Zali Am I forgetting anyone? also, Valier has volunteered to co-mod as she says she'll be available. Hope that's ok with you, Nogrod =) __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-30-2006, 08:12 PM	#2584
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	I think we should attempt to confirm in some way Grendelien and Findësëa are still participating. I have not seen that they have returned to the board since they signed up. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

03-31-2006, 02:00 AM	#2585
Nilpaurion Felagund Scion of The Faithful Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines] Posts: 5,430	Here's Louis! Farael is very convincing. I'm in, although during the first game week I'd be back to my normally confusing self, with a dash of brilliance every other DAY or so, perhaps. Hehe. Too bad Sauce pulled out. Whither goest now my revenge? Weregilds are nice. I've seen the evils of double lynchings in my game, so no. Deadline is sehr excellent, 8 pm local. And I don't exaclty relish retractable votes, but I can be swayed by the majority. Shaman looks interesting. The others are quite confusing. __________________ フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...

03-31-2006, 02:10 AM	#2586
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,347	Put me down as a maybe... it all depends how long Valier's game runs- and whether or not there are more worthy new players who deserve a spot. But otherwise, I'm in... __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

03-31-2006, 09:40 AM	#2587
Kitanna Child of the West Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn Posts: 2,390	I'd like to play too, but first I have to see how long Valier's game is. __________________ "Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

03-31-2006, 11:16 AM	#2588
Caranlondien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bag-Endless-Fuel Posts: 339	I'm in favor of trying out the Shaman role... Vampires look like fun, but I think more thought has to go into them before trying them out. And I'm not sure what to think about retractable votes. Right now my vote is against them, but if the majority wants them, that's cool too.

03-31-2006, 11:52 AM	#2589
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,267	I really, really would like to play, but I don't know if I should. Confusticate and bebother all this springtime busyness! Okay, I'll play if it's fine with other players that you'll see me much less than usually. I don't want to steal a spot from someone who could concentrate on WWing better than me right now, but I wouldn't want to miss Farael's game either. And now, some other things. If anyone is interested in my opinions at this point, here they are: -I'd love to try out retractable votes. -I'd prefer keeping the baddies as werewolves. Orcs are almost like humans, so the concept of a man turning into an orc at nights doesn't feel as scary as a man turning into a wolf. Besides, wolves are more graceful. Becaming an orc after the sunset reminds me of princess Fiona in Shrek. Weredragons on the other hand... they must be quite tiny dragons in order to perform their nightly kills without that anyone sees them. However, ultimately it's Farael's choice, so whatever he decides, it's fine with me. -So the deadline is 12 midnight GMT, right? Also, is that 12:00 GMT 0 or GMT +1 due to DST? In any case, that's a very decent deadline, thank you. __________________ Fenris Wolf

03-31-2006, 09:02 PM	#2590
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	Farael is very sleepy I'm dead tired so I'll leave discussion for later, I just wanted to update the player's list Caranlondien: JennyHallu:Doomsday prophet Nogrod: unemployed barber. Diamond:? Grendelien: Findëasëa Celuien:lampwright Zali NIlp Formen? Kitanna Lhuna????????<--- If not, I won't be her lover anymore ahem Oh, hey Nilp, what are you doing in Canada?? =P __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. Last edited by Farael; 04-02-2006 at 09:59 PM.

03-31-2006, 09:36 PM	#2591
Kitanna Child of the West Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn Posts: 2,390	Since I have been killed off in Valier's game I can defiantly play in this one. __________________ "Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

04-01-2006, 02:30 PM	#2592
Grendelien Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: flat-point high Posts: 52	I'm so sorry I've been away for a couple days...I definitely am still playing. As soon as this weekend's madness is over, I'll be able to fully dedicate myself to werewolfing!

04-01-2006, 02:32 PM	#2593
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	That's great...I just worried since I hadn't seen you. Glad you're still excited about it! Can't wait...when are we starting, Farael? __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

04-01-2006, 03:21 PM	#2594
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	I don't want to start the game with fewer than 15 players.... if we get to that number before Monday, we'll start on Monday (night phase 1, so villagers get to start posting on Tuesday). If not, as soon as we get 15 players. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

04-01-2006, 03:42 PM	#2595
Grendelien Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: flat-point high Posts: 52	Oh, how rude of me...I don't know where my scattered brain has been...Thanks, all, for the greetings!

04-02-2006, 05:45 AM	#2597
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,686	Well...I won't be around to help recruit. Must go remind my husband he's supposed to wake up in a bit, go to church, and then fix my car because somehow I've done something bad to the muffler. But hopefully I will be here tonight and I can see what you guys have accomplished. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

04-02-2006, 12:11 PM	#2598
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	Re: Occupations Wereorcs it'll be in an elven village. It will be on the first age and epic roles (such as Silmaril keeper of Feanor follower ) will be allowed.... as long as they are deemed funny enough =D Re: Starting date Unless we get Formen, Diamond and Lhuna confirmed and three more players before about 12 AM GMT, i'll pull the starting date back to Tuesday. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

04-02-2006, 02:00 PM	#2599
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,795	Occupation: I will be a lampwright. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

04-02-2006, 03:16 PM	#2600
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	Occupation: I will be an unemployed barber. As the elves do not seem to grow a beard, I must be a victim of a poor career-advisoring at school... Although in the Middle-ages the people caring for any operations at the battlefield, or otherwise, were the barbers - the only guys with sharp blades anyway. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...