Who is she? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Enorëiel · 01-16-2004, 11:03 AM

I was recently at my cousin's house while she had one of her friend's over. Upon noticing that her friend was holding a copy of the 3-in-1 Lord of the Rings book I asked her if she'd seen Return of the King yet. She hadn't and I went on to tell her how awesome it was. I then told her that she'd really like what they did with Shelob. My cousin, who had no clue what we were talking about, asked who Shelob was. So I explained who she was and added in that Shelob was the 'she' that Gollum had been referring to at the end of the Two Towers. My cousin was really surprised; she had thought that when Gollum had been referring to 'She' that he was talking about another one of his alter egos. Which leads me to this thread. If you or a friend hadn't read the books before watching the movie, who did you think Gollum was referring to? Who did you think 'She' was?

Elrond of Rivendell · 01-16-2004, 11:34 AM

Well, it is difficult to answer this question, as I have actually read the books, so I can only assume that I would not have thought about another of Gollum's multiple personalities. In fact, he always sticks to "us" and "we", more rarely he uses "me" or "I", but never he has used "she" or "her" before. I think it would be quite "logical" to consider the possibility of some monster, given Faramir's very special reaction when learning about Frodo's willingness to follow Gollum to Cirith Ungol. But I also see the point of your friend, a mere seeing of the movies is not that sufficient to actually "foresee" a huge spider awaiting Frodo and Sam. (In the books, somehow, Shelob's description enables this - or so I think). Greetings, EfR

Sparrow · 01-16-2004, 12:19 PM

A topic I was recently reading over, which may be pertinent to this discussion, is the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003667" TARGET=_blank>Foreshadowing and Fear</A> thread in the Books forum. In the books, there are several subtle (and for many of them I do mean really subtle) hints at what lies beyond the stairs of Cirith Ungol. As for the movie, I cannot actually say, since I have read the books several times. My girlfriend did say at the end of The Two Towers, "Who is Gollum talking about when he says 'she'? Not Sauron right? Sauron is a guy, right?!"~Sparrow

Kaiserin · 01-17-2004, 06:35 AM

Hard to guess what non-readers would think... I watched the movies with friends who have read none of the LOTR books, and i could guess what they were thinking upon hearing talks of this she: "What? Another character?" Their minds were already too saturated with details that they probably had a hard time keeping track (I was of course this total showoff, answering the questions they asked and didn't )[ 7:35 AM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

HCIsland · 01-17-2004, 02:01 PM

The only people I went to the movie with that wouldn't know who "she" was was my brother and my mom. Neither were hazzarding guesses and we're willing for the movie to surprise them.H.C.

The Dark Elf · 01-17-2004, 02:25 PM

gollums a guy, why would he refer to himself as she? it had to be Shelob

Jjudvven · 01-17-2004, 06:16 PM

Yes but those who had not read the books would have no idea who Shelob was in the first place, and must have been going, "Who?" I don't know anyone who hasn't read the books though, so I can't really answer the question. It doesn't look like many people had outspoken questions about Shelob, or the "She" from the Two Towers.

HCIsland · 01-17-2004, 06:32 PM

Those people who had just seen the first two movies obviously didn't even begin to have enough information to begin guessing who "she" was. I think they sensed this and so didn't begin speculating except to go to someone who has read the book and ask them.I think that is why there wasn't much discussion about it. Either you were willing to leave it a mystery until the next film, or you were going to get it from the source.H.C.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 01-17-2004, 06:52 PM

My mom asked my dad and I, and we refused to tell her. So then I think she just assumed that it was some other creature or ally of Gollum's or something, who would be revealed in ROTK. I think you're right, HC. It seems to me that most movie goers would just assume that "all shall be revealed" in ROTK.

Arwen Evenstar · 01-17-2004, 07:12 PM

Ofcourse it was Shelob! I mean, who else could it be? Any way, I`ve seen and read The Return of the King 3 times, and refers to Shelob as "She" or "Her". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She`s always hungry. All she gets is nasty orcses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> or some thing along those lines. I hope I`ve helped you in anyway.

The Dark Elf · 01-17-2004, 08:37 PM

maybe they think its Arwen. Shes not really an elf shes Sauron in disguise...

Maltagaerion · 01-18-2004, 02:36 AM

And this is one of the reasons why I kinda wish they had portrayed Shelob with a bit more age and malice, rather than just a large, hungry spider.[ 3:37 AM January 18, 2004: Message edited by: Maltagaerion ]

HCIsland · 01-18-2004, 09:54 AM

This is from <A HREF="http://www.legomirk.com/lotrscript2003/part5_text.html" TARGET=_blank>a site</A> where someone has made a transcript of RotK. This is the pool scene discussion between Smeagol and Gollum. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sméagol: "It's ours!!! Ours!!!"Sméagol: "We must get the Precious! We must get It back!"Gollum: "Patience! Patience, my love."Gollum: "First we must lead them to her."Sméagol: "We lead them to the winding stairs."Gollum: "Yes, the stairs...and then?"Sméagol: "Up, up, up, up the stairs we go and then we come to...the tunnel."Gollum: "And when they go in, there's no coming out."Gollum: "She's always hungry. She always needs to feed. She must eat. All she gets is filthy orcses."Sméagol: "And they doesn't taste very nice, does they, precious?"Gollum: "No, not very nice at all, my love."Gollum: "She hungers for sweeter meats..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think the film makes it abundantly clear who "she" is.H.C.

Armetiel · 01-18-2004, 11:01 AM

^The ROTK makes it very clear but the question was about the TTT. If you didn't know who "she" was after watching the TTT (if you haven't read the books) THEN who would you think she was.My mom didn't know nor did my bro, but my bro was nearly done reading the TTT so I don't him to just keep going...As for my mom she didn't try to guess she just asked so I told her.

SamwiseGamgee · 01-18-2004, 12:07 PM

My sister and girlfriend accompanied me to see TTT, neither having read any Tolkien. My sister asked 'Who's she?' I said I wasn't telling, to which she replied 'I she a monster?' My girlfriend, on the other hand, said 'I thought the big guy... what's his name Saruman?' 'No, Sauron. ' 'Oh yeah, i thought he was a guy, not a girl.' I broke up with her soon after. My point is, though, that it can depend even from person to person on what they take 'she' to mean.

01-16-2004, 11:03 AM	#1
Enorëiel Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hobbiton, U.S.A. Posts: 165	Who is she? I was recently at my cousin's house while she had one of her friend's over. Upon noticing that her friend was holding a copy of the 3-in-1 Lord of the Rings book I asked her if she'd seen Return of the King yet. She hadn't and I went on to tell her how awesome it was. I then told her that she'd really like what they did with Shelob. My cousin, who had no clue what we were talking about, asked who Shelob was. So I explained who she was and added in that Shelob was the 'she' that Gollum had been referring to at the end of the Two Towers. My cousin was really surprised; she had thought that when Gollum had been referring to 'She' that he was talking about another one of his alter egos. <P>Which leads me to this thread. If you or a friend hadn't read the books before watching the movie, who did you think Gollum was referring to? Who did you think 'She' was? __________________ You can take a hobbit out of the Shire but you can't take the Shire out of a hobbit. Whoever said "Nothing is impossible" never tried to slam a revolving door.

01-16-2004, 11:34 AM	#2
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	Well, it is difficult to answer this question, as I have actually read the books, so I can only assume that I would not have thought about another of Gollum's multiple personalities. In fact, he always sticks to "us" and "we", more rarely he uses "me" or "I", but never he has used "she" or "her" before. I think it would be quite "logical" to consider the possibility of some monster, given Faramir's very special reaction when learning about Frodo's willingness to follow Gollum to Cirith Ungol. But I also see the point of your friend, a mere seeing of the movies is not that sufficient to actually "foresee" a huge spider awaiting Frodo and Sam. (In the books, somehow, Shelob's description enables this - or so I think).<BR>Greetings,<BR>EfR

01-16-2004, 12:19 PM	#3
Sparrow Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Paris Herself Posts: 28	A topic I was recently reading over, which may be pertinent to this discussion, is the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003667" TARGET=_blank>Foreshadowing and Fear</A> thread in the Books forum. In the books, there are several subtle (and for many of them I do mean <I>really</I> subtle) hints at what lies beyond the stairs of Cirith Ungol. As for the movie, I cannot actually say, since I have read the books several times. My girlfriend did say at the end of <I>The Two Towers</I>, "Who is Gollum talking about when he says 'she'? Not Sauron right? Sauron is a <I>guy</I>, right?!"<P>~Sparrow __________________ Were kisses all the joys in bed, One woman would another wed. -Bill Shakespeare

01-17-2004, 06:35 AM	#4
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	Hard to guess what non-readers would think... I watched the movies with friends who have read none of the LOTR books, and i could guess what they were thinking upon hearing talks of this <I>she</I>: "What? Another character?" Their minds were already too saturated with details that they probably had a hard time keeping track (I was of course this total showoff, answering the questions they asked and didn't )<p>[ 7:35 AM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ] __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

01-17-2004, 02:01 PM	#5
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	The only people I went to the movie with that wouldn't know who "she" was was my brother and my mom. Neither were hazzarding guesses and we're willing for the movie to surprise them.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-17-2004, 02:25 PM	#6
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	gollums a guy, why would he refer to himself as she? it had to be Shelob __________________ "Fool of a Took!"

01-17-2004, 06:16 PM	#7
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	Yes but those who had not read the books would have no idea who Shelob was in the first place, and must have been going, "Who?" I don't know anyone who hasn't read the books though, so I can't really answer the question. It doesn't look like many people had outspoken questions about Shelob, or the "She" from the Two Towers. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

01-17-2004, 06:32 PM	#8
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Those people who had just seen the first two movies obviously didn't even begin to have enough information to begin guessing who "she" was. I think they sensed this and so didn't begin speculating except to go to someone who has read the book and ask them.<P>I think that is why there wasn't much discussion about it. Either you were willing to leave it a mystery until the next film, or you were going to get it from the source.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-17-2004, 06:52 PM	#9
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	My mom asked my dad and I, and we refused to tell her. So then I think she just assumed that it was some other creature or ally of Gollum's or something, who would be revealed in ROTK. I think you're right, HC. It seems to me that most movie goers would just assume that "all shall be revealed" in ROTK. __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

01-17-2004, 07:12 PM	#10
Arwen Evenstar Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 131	Ofcourse it was Shelob! I mean, who else could it be? Any way, I`ve seen and read The Return of the King 3 times, and refers to Shelob as "She" or "Her". <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She`s always hungry. All she gets is nasty orcses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or some thing along those lines. I hope I`ve helped you in anyway.

01-17-2004, 08:37 PM	#11
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	maybe they think its Arwen. Shes not really an elf shes Sauron in disguise... __________________ "Fool of a Took!"

01-18-2004, 02:36 AM	#12
Maltagaerion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 60	And this is one of the reasons why I kinda wish they had portrayed Shelob with a bit more age and malice, rather than just a large, hungry spider.<p>[ 3:37 AM January 18, 2004: Message edited by: Maltagaerion ] __________________ Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks

01-18-2004, 09:54 AM	#13
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	This is from <A HREF="http://www.legomirk.com/lotrscript2003/part5_text.html" TARGET=_blank>a site</A> where someone has made a transcript of RotK. This is the pool scene discussion between Smeagol and Gollum.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sméagol: "It's ours!!! Ours!!!"<P>Sméagol: "We must get the Precious! We must get It back!"<P>Gollum: "Patience! Patience, my love."<P>Gollum: "First we must lead them to her."<P>Sméagol: "We lead them to the winding stairs."<P>Gollum: "Yes, the stairs...and then?"<P>Sméagol: "Up, up, up, up the stairs we go and then we come to...the tunnel."<P>Gollum: "And when they go in, there's no coming out."<P>Gollum: "She's always hungry. She always needs to feed. She must eat. All she gets is filthy orcses."<P>Sméagol: "And they doesn't taste very nice, does they, precious?"<P>Gollum: "No, not very nice at all, my love."<P>Gollum: "She hungers for sweeter meats..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the film makes it abundantly clear who "she" is.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-18-2004, 11:01 AM	#14
Armetiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 74	^The ROTK makes it very clear but the question was about the TTT. If you didn't know who "she" was after watching the TTT (if you haven't read the books) THEN who would you think she was.<P>My mom didn't know nor did my bro, but my bro was nearly done reading the TTT so I don't him to just keep going...<P>As for my mom she didn't try to guess she just asked so I told her. __________________ "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 6:5

01-18-2004, 12:07 PM	#15
SamwiseGamgee Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In the warm bosom of a Warg Posts: 378	My sister and girlfriend accompanied me to see TTT, neither having read any Tolkien.<BR>My sister asked 'Who's she?' I said I wasn't telling, to which she replied 'I she a monster?'<BR>My girlfriend, on the other hand, said 'I thought the big guy... what's his name Saruman?' 'No, Sauron. ' 'Oh yeah, i thought he was a guy, not a girl.' I broke up with her soon after. My point is, though, that it can depend even from person to person on what they take 'she' to mean. __________________ -- Well, I'm back.