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Old 05-10-2006, 02:30 PM   #1
Findegil
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General changes in TftE

In this post I have collected all general changes that were used so far. And in future work I will add to it what ever diserves a general teratment. I also would like to concentrat henc forth all discussion of general changes in this thread. Such a collection will make it easier to check all texts under development for general changes that are needed.

{Bansil}[Belthil] per Sil77

{Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] per Sil77

{Eärendel}[Eärendil] per QS77 and LR.

{Elfinesse}[Elvenesse] per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

{Glingol}[Glingal] per QS77.

{Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] per QS77.

{Indor}[Galdor] when it refers to the grandfather of Tour per UT

{Inwë}[Ingwë] per QS77.

{Isfin}[Aredhel] per QS77.

{Kôr} and {Côr}[Túna] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. In the sole mention in “The Fall of Gondolin” it is the hill that is meant.

{Malkarauki}[Valaraukar] per Valaquenta published with QS77.

{Meglin}[Maeglin] per QS77.

{Melko}[Morgoth] per QS77. After BoLT Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor’s invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

{Noldoli}[Noldor] per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77 or late Tolkien writings.

{Peleg}[Huor] per QS77 and “Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin”.

{Place of the Gods}[Place of the Ainur]. Tolkien almost entirely drops “Gods” as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change “Gods” to “Valar”, but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside EÄ. The English translation should be equally wide. “Place of the Holy Ones” would be full translation, but is perhaps to cumbersome.

{Sorontur}[Sorontar] per “The Etymologies” (under THOR-, THORON-) and “The Wanderings of Húrin” in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

{Throndor}[Thorondor] per QS77 and LR.

{Tumladin}[Tumladen] per QS77.

{Amon Gwareth}[Amon Gwared] per “The War of the Jewels” (HoME 11), Part Two the Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12, “Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin”. Christopher Tolkien notes: To this my father made some corrections: Nivrost > Nevrast as in the preceding chapters; Eryd Wethion > Eryd Wethrin; Handir > Huor (see above); and Amon Gwareth > Amon Gwared.

{Gnome}[Elf] or [Noldo] and {Gnomes}[Elves] or [Noldor]. “Gnomes” was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in “the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not.” Then use Noldor.

{House of the Swan}[House of Hador] per UT when it refers to Tuors ancestry. The sign of Annael remains the Swan.

{Lothlim}[Lothrim] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Salgant}[Talagant] per “The Eytmologies”. Under the stem ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD- ‘play (on stringed instrument)’ which produces various forms meaning ‘Harp’ or ‘harp-playing’, is found:
talagant harper (*tyalañgando), cf. Talagant [>] of Gondolin [TYAL].
Under TYAL- ‘play’ is:
Cf. tyalañgandō = harp-player (Q tyalangan): N Talagand, one of the chiefs of Gondolin (see ÑGAN).
Christopher Tolkien adds a note to ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD-:
Talagant appears in literary source, but cf. Salgant in the tale of The Fall of Gondolin, the cowardly but not wholly unattractive lord of the People of the Harp: II. 173, 190-1, etc.
Talgand was almost certainly Tolkien’s planed replacement form for Salgant the lord of the People of the Harp.

{Thornhoth}[Thoronhoth] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomissh to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

{Bad Uthwen}[Way of Escape], the Elvish name of the “Way of Escape”. The Etymologies” gives:
BAT- tread. *báta : ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bâd.
But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bâd Uthwen with the circumflex accent.
Need be replaced by Way of Escape.

{Gar Ainion}[Place of the Ainur]. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion ‘Place of Flowers’ occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminórë, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, ‘Flower-place’ by ‘Place of Flowers’. Since Losgar occurs in the Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fëanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning ‘place’.
However upon closer examination the later ‘Losgar’ cannot mean ‘Flower-place’ which would be Lothgar. If gar means ‘place’ still, it might mean ‘Snow-place’ or ‘Snow-white place’. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.
Nost-na-Lothion. Translated ‘Birth of Flowers’. In “Etymologies” under NŌ- ‘beget’ occurs Noldorin form noss ‘house’, example Nos Finrod ‘House of Finrod’. In BoLT 1 under Duilin, appears nos ‘house’ as well as related forms nosta- ‘be born’, nost ‘birth; blood, high birth; birthday’, and nôs ‘birthday’. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the ‘birth’ forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning “born” of “birth” are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

{Tarin Austa}[Gates of Summer], the Elvish name for the festival “Gates of Summer”. Nether of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning ‘small mountain lake’.) Sindarin tarn meaning ‘gate’ might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for ‘summer’ alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

{Glommweaver}[Ungoliant] and {Ungoliantë}[Ungoliant] per QS77

{Legolas Greenleaf}[Laegolas] Legolas means ‘green-leaves’ a woddland name – dialectical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lassē (High-elven lasse. S. las(s)) ‘leaf’; *gwa-lassa<gwa-lassie ‘collection of leaves, foliage’ (H.E. olassiē, S. golas, -olas); *laika ‘green’ –basis LAY as in Laire ‘summer’ (H.E. laica, S. leag (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg).”
Quoted from Letter 211.
“’Technically’ Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg ‘viridis fresh and green, and golass ‘collection of leaves, foliage’.”
Quoted from Letter 297.
‘ae’ and ‘ai’ are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad’s spear)).
Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor “older” word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old “Qenya” orthography.
Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas. –olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves.
Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)
The term Laiquendi “Greenelves” was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also “fit” here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+quén > roquen “knight”.

{Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] per QS77.

{Gods}[Valar] Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings.

{Diriel} and {Dinithel}[Amras] per QS77. But normally Amras will be deleted since we consider him killed by the burning of the ships at Losgar.

{Damrod}[Amrod] per QS77.

{Tun}[Túna] per Sil77

{Maidros and Maedhros to Maeðros per HoME X

{Celegorn}[Celegorm] per Sil77

{Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin] per Sil77

[Haleth]{Halmir} per HoME 11 when it refers to Haleth the Hunter

{Hundor}[Haldir] per HoME XI

{Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] per Sil77

{Nivrost}[Nevrast] per Sil77

Tower of {Ingildon}[Nimrais] per Sil77

{Teiglin}[Taeglin] per WH note 55:
Taeglin(d) better Taeglind
*taika (√taya mark, line, limit > tayak) mǽre, boundary, limit, boundary line.
linde 'singer / singing', name (or element in names) of many rivers of quick course that make a rippling sound.
mǽre is an Old English word of the same meaning. – It seems that the form chosen for the published Silmarillion should have been Taeglin rather than Teiglin (see p. 228, §28).

{Flinding}[Gwindor] per Sil77 but this change does only ocoure in the verse and Flinding is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Fuilin}[Guilin] per Sil77 but this change does only occur in the verse and Fuilin is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor, Guilin’s son] this seems to be covered by the two entry above but since in such lines Flinding and Fuilin are both in the alliteration it is here surely necessary to change the alliteration.

{Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith] per Sil77

{dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm] just for consistency.

{dwarfen}[dwarven] per Tolkiens general use of the old plural when refering to Dwarves.

{Tengwethil}[Taniquetil] per Sil77

{Ylmir}[Ulmo] per Sil77

{Nan-Tathrin}[Nan-Thatren] per Sil77

Tower of {Ing}[Ingwë] per Sil77

{Dorlas}[Darlas] per WH Note 55

{Dairon}[Daeron] per Sil77

{Inglor}[Finrod] per LotR

{Finrod}[Finrafin] per LotR

{Thu} and {Gorthu}[Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LotR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line.

{Glorund}[Glaurung] per Wanderings of Húrin.

{Glingal}[Laurelin] per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line.

{Belthil}[Silpion] per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line.

{Cranthor} and {Cranthir}[Caranthir] per Sil77

{Egnor}[Aegnor] per Sil77

{Umboth-Muilin}[Aelin-uial] per QS77 and UT

{Lhandroval}[Landroval] per LotR

{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim] per Sil77

{Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per Sil77

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Bladorion}[Ard-galen] per HoME XI

{Noldorin}[Sindarin] per HoME XI

Dagor {Vreged-sir}[Bragollach] per QS77

Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] per QS77

{Bëor}[Bregor] when referring to the Father of Barahir per HoME XI

{Gelion}[Duin Daer] per HoME XI

{Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen] or [Dor-Caranthir] per HoME XI

{Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] per QS77

{Gochressiel}[{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim]] per QS77

{Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] for consistency with UT and QS77

{Galion}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per QS77

{Úrin}[Húrin] per LR.

{Tinwelint}[Thingol] per LR.

{Hisilómë}[Hithlum] per “The Shaping of Middle-Earth”: The Sketch of Mythology
The six remaining sons of Fëanor (Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Damrod, Díriel, and Cranthir) ate encamped about the lake Mithrim in Hisilómë (Hithlum, or Dorlómin, the land of shadows in the North-west), when they hear of the march of Finweg and his men who have crossed the Grinding Ice.

{Rodothlim}[elves of Nargothrond] per QS77.

{Artanor}[Doriath] per QS30.

{Cûm an-Idrisaith}[Cûm-nan-Arasaith] (Mound of Avarice) per QS30. This need linguistic revision.

{Gwenniel}[Melian] per QS30.

{Angamandi}[Angband] per QS30.

{Nauglath}[dwarves of Nogrod] or [Naugrim] per QS77

{Indrafangs}[dwarves of Belegost] when not referring to the dwarves of Moria per QS77

{Karkaras (Knife-fang)}[Carcharoth ('the Red Maw')] per QS77.

{i·Guilwarthon}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77.

{Sarnathrod} and {Sarn Athrad}[Athrad Daer] per QS77.

{Auredhir}[Eluréd and Elurín] per QS77.

{Ermabwed}[Erchamion] per QS77.

{Mavwin}[Morwen] per QS77.

{Nienóri}[Nienor] per UT.

{Egnor}[Barahir] per QS77 when it refers to Beren’s father.

{Galweg}[Orodreth] per QS77.

{Silver Bowl}[Dimrost] (the Rainy Stair) per QS77.

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Old 06-11-2006, 02:59 PM   #2
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Anotherone was found:

{Tavros} and {Tauros}[Tauron] per LQ

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Old 11-08-2006, 12:09 PM   #3
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{Díriel}[Amros] and {Amras}[Amros] due to The Shibboleth of Fëanor and The problem of ROS.

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Old 04-24-2007, 01:32 PM   #4
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A question arose that is best discussed here:
We have changed Maedhros to Maeðros. Does that mean that we also change Eledhwen to Eleðwen?

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Last edited by Findegil; 05-07-2007 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 05-13-2007, 04:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
A question arose that is best discussed here:
We have changed Maedhros to Maeðros. Does that mean that we also change Eledhwen to Eleðwen?
I think that it should. After all the change of dh to ð has to be valid in general I think. Perhaps Aiwendil could know more about it?

In our version of the Fall of Gondolin, in the later part that uses the material from the Tales, Echtelion, is called Lord of the Fountain, it should be Fountains, as it is in UT.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:08 AM   #6
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I have worked in the plural to title of Ecthelion.

If dh to ð is a general change then the following names must be changed:
{Eledhwen}[Eleðwen]
{Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]
{Glóredhel}[Glóreðel]
{Aredhel}[Areðel]
{Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð]
{Adanedhel}[Adaneðel]
{Annon-in-Gelydh}[Annon-in-Gelyð]
{Lisgardh}[Lisgarð]
{Haudh-en-Nirnaeth}[Hauð-en-Nirnaeth]

Radhurin I would not change because I think it renders to Rad-Hurin and not to Raðuirn.

Comments to all this neames are most welcome.

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