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Old 04-06-2002, 09:48 AM   #1
Thingol
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The Eye Sauron's Hroa

For a very long time Sauron was able to change his form, he was even able to assume a fair form. After the fall of Numenor Tolkien states that Sauron was no longer able to assume a fair form again. Does this mean that he became trapped in an incarnate body, or was he still able to change into various horrible and powerful personas? Also, during the 3rd Age does Sauron even possess a body (and if he does would he be able to change it?), or is he just a big, terrible eye? The only evidence that I can find that supports that Sauron has a Hroa is when Frodo is captured and Shagrat and Gorbag are discussing what to do with him. Shagrat's orders state
Quote:
Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower... prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.
By the capitalization of He and Himself I think it's safe to say that Shagrat is referring to Sauron (after all, Sauron does not permit his name to be spoken by his servants, except maybe the Mouth of Sauron [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]). If Sauron is able to come himself then he probably is more than just an eye, right? There is also the instance where Pippin is questioned by a dark from when he looks into the Palantir, but that could very well be one of the Nazgul. Tolkien does not capitalize he in Pippin’s description of his questioner.

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Old 04-06-2002, 10:49 AM   #2
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Hmm, I think that it is said that he was never again able to choose a fair form, yes. But I think that though he mostly was in form of the Eye, he was able to take a terrible form. Like Morgoth, I think, but not so big of course.

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Old 04-06-2002, 06:27 PM   #3
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The Eye

Yes, Sauron had a body in the Third Age. There is a quote in the Letters about it, alas I don't have access to it at the moment. Perhaps someone better endowed with books can tell you what it is, but its in there.
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Old 04-06-2002, 09:18 PM   #4
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The Eye

Oh yes, silly me also forgot that Gollum (who would know better than most having been there) referred to Sauron having a "Black Hand" with a missing finger.
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Old 04-06-2002, 10:32 PM   #5
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Sting

ok, assuming Sauron has a body, is he trapped in it, or is he still able to change his form?
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Old 04-07-2002, 06:15 AM   #6
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What Pippin saw was either Sauron or the Lord of the Nazgl, but I'd say it was Sauron. Pippin saw some dark flying beings (he counted 9) then one of them covered the entire vision of the palantr; then "he" appeared. Sorry, I don't have the quote right now.
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Old 04-07-2002, 07:06 AM   #7
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Sting

I'm always confused by this myself. I thought Sauron became the "Lidless Eye", and lost his mortal form way back in the Second Age at the Fall of Numenor. Yet he had to have a finger for Isildur to chop off, right?

And when that happened...what? He lost another body, or was he a wraith even then? And where does he get these bodies? Doe he create them, or does he possess a body when it's necessary.

And when the Ring was cast into the fire, what happened then, was his spirit completely destroyed and dispersed?
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Old 04-07-2002, 07:51 AM   #8
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The Eye

I don't know if he could still shape shift. I would personally guess not. Morgoth eventually lost the ability to shape shift. I think that Sauron probably did too. Being trapped in one form at a time would be the result of the Downfall of Numenor.

Quote:
And when that happened...what? He lost another body, or was he a wraith even then?
Sauron wasn't ever a wraith because he was not a being that was naturally incarnate. He did not die and then have his spirit trapped in his body by some outside force. His spirit resided in his body of its own will, with ever growing limitations.

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And where does he get these bodies? Doe he create them, or does he possess a body when it's necessary.
He makes them.

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And when the Ring was cast into the fire, what happened then, was his spirit completely destroyed and dispersed?
His body was probably destroyed and his spirit dispersed. It's not possible for anything other than Eru's direct intervention to destroy a spirit.
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Old 04-07-2002, 08:46 AM   #9
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Btw, if he lost his body in the Downfall of Nmenor, then..

..imagine an eye fighting in a battle and somebody cutting the eye's finger :P

(Um, strange, first I used "ja" instead of "and" :P ("Ja" is the finnish translation of "and"))

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Afrodal ]
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Old 04-07-2002, 09:08 AM   #10
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Ring

good question! I was going to start a thread on this one myself.

If Sauron creates his bodies, HOW does he do it? Is it because he's a Maia and can take any form he wants?

After the downfall of Numenor, it says in Appendix A that he was a black and hideous (or something like that, i'll have to find the quote). So i think he had become permanantly evil-looking by then. As for the third age, was he JUST an eye? And was he an eye because he wanted to take that form? This goes back to my question on how he makes his bodies-- When his former body was destroyed when Isildur cut the ring from his hand, and his spirit fled, was he just like, Okay i want to be an Eye now, and so became one? I was pretty confused about physical Sauron throughout LOTR.

There are some ambiguous descriptions of Sauron's form in LOTR (like when Sam and Frodo approach Mt. Doom and see Barad Dur in the distance, Pippin and the Palantir and more, i think), but i'll have to go find them some other time.
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Old 04-07-2002, 09:21 AM   #11
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Sting

OK, my collection of reference books are slim, but this is what Tyler has in the "Companion":

"Although in later years Sauron's appearance grew hateful - so that his power then lay in terror alone - at the time of his rise he was still fair of aspect and form..." (This apparently helped him to "suck up" to King Pharazn, and eventually become his chief counsellor.)

To continue from the "Companion":

"In the ensuing downfall of Nmenor, Sauron's mortal body was destroyed, but his spirit survived and fled back to Middle-earth, shapeless and vengeful. He was never again able to appear in a pleasing form, but instead became the Dark Lord, terrible of aspect, black and burning hot, with a single lidless Eye..."

Perhaps he did not wear a body of flesh, but a "costume", similar to the the Ring Wraiths cloaks. Maybe he walked around in animated armor. But I don't believe he ever again had a body of flesh.

Hmmmm, guess I answered my own question. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Or maybe I'm influnced by that scene in the film now for all time. (the collapsing armor).
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Old 04-07-2002, 09:40 AM   #12
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Sting

I do not like the film version of the duel between Sauron, Islidur, and Gil-Galad. In the books it says that there was a fight and that Sauron was "cast down" and the Ring was cut from his finger. This indicates that there was a physical struggle, and it also makes things a bit more interesting.
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Old 04-07-2002, 09:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
In the books it says that there was a fight and that Sauron was "cast down" and the Ring was cut from his finger. This indicates that there was a physical struggle...
Yes, Thingol, but the question is: a physical struggle with what? How do you wrestle with a formless being? Or cut off a finger, for that matter?
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Old 04-07-2002, 09:59 AM   #14
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It says that Sauron took on a form similar to that of Melkor in his final stages, a dark lord, tall and terrible. Melkor was defiantly flesh and blood, he was wounded by Fingolofin. So it seems to me that Sauron was defiantly a physical entity, at least in the second age. My question at the beginning of the thread was would Sauron be trapped in that physical form? The movie description of Sauron during the Last Alliance is probably closer to what Sauron was actually like during the 3rd age, after he was "cast down" by Gil-Galad and Islidur. It seems that Sauron was able to take a form during the 3rd age, he is able to come himself, and Gollum says he has 4 fingers, so would he be trapped in an incarnate form during the third age as well as the second age?

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Old 04-09-2002, 03:22 PM   #15
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Sting

I don't think Tolkien would have made Sauron's dying spirit reach out (with it's hand) towards the lords of the west, unless he had some shape. Maybe when he came back as an eye, he grew back his body around it. I actually sketched a pic a while back of him as the necromancer. He is everything they described him as, but also shaped alike to Tolkien's watercolor (One of the various RotK covers) but anyway, he is faded and looks really ticked about missing a finger. I being a stickler for details, actually gave him pointy ears, sharp teeth and a horrendous scar on his throat. I draw Sauron all the time, Youthful Thu, Dark Lord, the Eye with no form around it, all his various forms. But I do think he had a form, it was pretty much obvious from Gollum's statement.
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Old 04-09-2002, 03:29 PM   #16
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You have these drawings scanned? I'd like to see them.
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Old 04-09-2002, 04:56 PM   #17
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The Eye

Remember too that Isuldur's description of the ring (left in the archives in Gondor) includes a reference to Sauron's black skin that burned like fire (or some such).
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Old 04-11-2002, 04:25 PM   #18
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Unfortunatly, I don't have any Tolkien related pics scanned. And I still haven't even gotten a pic for my profile, so it will be a while before I get any pics up, and even then they will only be the top choice pics. But someday...
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