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Old 02-15-2004, 09:56 AM   #1
galadriel'smaiden
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Tolkien Revelations and Realizations

Recently, I figured out that Luthien Tunuviel was Legolas's aunt!!! Geaneaology is as follows-

Thingol father of Tunuviel and Thranduil

Thranduil father of Lefolas Greenleaf

Neato.

Have u figured something interesting out?
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Old 02-15-2004, 10:30 AM   #2
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Actually, Thranduil's father was named Oropher. I don't know much about him or his ancestry, but I know he died in the battle of the Last Alliance. It's possible he was originally from Doriath, but that would not necessarily make him a relative of Thingol. I'm not sure, but I doubt it. Galadriel and Celeborn, I think, would have been more familiar with Legolas if he was that close to the house of Elwe, considering their own history in Doriath.
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Old 02-15-2004, 10:50 AM   #3
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Oropher could have been of the House of Elw, we don't know for sure. All we know is that he came over with the "wave" of Sindarin immigrants before the year II 1000. We don't hear anything about him in the First Age, so that suggests (but doesn't prove) that he was born early in the Second Age.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 02-15-2004, 04:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Have u figured something interesting out?
Oh yeah! My sister and I just love looking through the geneologies! We've decided that Elrond Halfelven is a misnomer since he's actually 9/16 elven! Hehehe!
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:43 AM   #5
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..........?!............

Oops. My bad.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:18 AM   #6
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Pipe The curse of the Elven mother-in-law

Of course, the really amusing and interesting piece of genealogical history is that Galadriel is Elrond's mother-in-law, and therefore Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir's maternal grandmother. Small wonder, then, that she takes such an interest in Aragorn when he passes through her country.

I didn't really work this out, since it's right there in the text, but that sort of familial tie between these two commanding figures among the Wise does make me wonder what those White Council meetings were really like. Along with Gandalf's casual baiting of Saruman, I wonder if Elrond was ever told that Celebran could have done better for herself or that he was a feckless wastrel.

Yes, this is just an excuse to use the new smiley.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:49 AM   #7
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Of course, Elrond would also be asked if that feckless wastrel of a foster-son of his was King yet.

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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:01 AM   #8
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What follows is something extremely sensitive to my imaginations...

Elendil is a direct decendent of the line of Elros, brother of Elrond half-elven.

Aragorn son of Arathorn II is a direct decendent of Elendil. It follows therefore that Elrond half-elven can be considered as Aragorn's great-great....(multiply with some number between 20 to 40) grand Uncle.

So, Arwen Evenstar is Elrond's daughter, and Aragorn's great-great... (multiply with some number between 20 to 40 minus 1) grand Aunt...

Gee, before anyone come after me with some firebrand, I would like to mention that majority, if not all of their ancestors are related anyway from the beginning... note: Luthien and some guy... I have not checked the exact family tree yet... but this assumation I think stands to reason, since Prof T likes to his royalty bloodlines to be PURE.

Ah! Just laugh it off!
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:22 AM   #9
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Wait, shouldn't Arwen be Aragorn's cousin several times removed or something? She's the daughter of his great-great-great.......great uncle, so wouldn't that make them cousins? Also, it's more than forty times removed - I just counted, and from Elendil Aragorn is the 41st. If someone else wants to figure it out I have Elros, Vardamir Nolimon, Tar-Amandil, Tar-Elendil, Silmarien, Valandil, ..., Amandil, Elendil, 40 people, Aragorn. I don't know who is between Valandil and Amandil.

And I thought I was the only one who enjoyed figuring weird stuff like this out. It's nice to know you're not alone.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:41 AM   #10
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There must be a list of the Lords of Anduni somewhere. If I'm not mistaken, isn't there a list in the Appendices?
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 02-16-2004, 10:03 AM   #11
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Re: The curse of the Elven mother-in-law

Quote:
Originally posted by The Squatter of Amon Rdh
I didn't really work this out, since it's right there in the text, but that sort of familial tie between these two commanding figures among the Wise does make me wonder what those White Council meetings were really like. Along with Gandalf's casual baiting of Saruman, I wonder if Elrond was ever told that Celebran could have done better for herself or that he was a feckless wastrel.
[/B]
Add to that Radagast was probably daydreaming during the meetings of the Council and you can understand why they didn't do THAT much!
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:00 PM   #12
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Hmm... I think I am missing a point... Arwen is one generation removed from Elrond, While Aragorn is erm... generations removed from Elros... So doesn't that make them Aunt and nephew???
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:30 PM   #13
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Pipe

No, I'm pretty sure they are cousins. Elrond and Elros were brothers (duh), which would make their kids, Arwen and Vardamir, cousins. That would make Vardamir's kid (Tar-Amandil) 1st cousin once removed to Arwen. So then you take that down many generations and you get 1st cousin many times removed.

My way to prove this is the "Took of Great Smials" Hobbit family tree in the Appendices. Frodo and Bilbo are 1st cousins once removed. If you replace Elrond with Belladonna, Arwen with Bilbo, Elros with Mirabella, Vardamir with Primula, and Tar-Amandil with Frodo, you have exactly the same scenario.

I have way too much time on my hands to figure this out.
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Old 02-18-2004, 01:27 AM   #14
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speaking of in-breeding... ;)

This is plain to see in family tree III in the Sil., so I can't claim to have cleverly figured it out:

Elrond & Elros' mother, Elwing, is the daughter of Dior. Dior is the son of Beren. Beren is the son of Barahir.
Barahir's brother, Bregolas, is the father of Belegund, who is the father of Rian, who is the mother of Tuor, who is the father of Earendil. Who, of course, is the husband of Elwing, and the father of Elrond and Elros.

Which means that Elwing and Earendil share a great-great- and great-great-great-grandfather, respectively.
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Old 02-18-2004, 03:03 AM   #15
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It seems to me that the intense interest in geneologies here shows that many of our members must be descendants of Hobbits!
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Old 02-18-2004, 04:46 AM   #16
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Silmaril

Something interesting is about a ring which one of Aragorn's ancestors received in the First Age from from an ancestor of Arwen's who was Elven High King. This ring came down through Ages to Aragorn, who finally presents it to Arwen(upon betrothal).
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Old 02-18-2004, 05:02 PM   #17
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You're talking about the Ring of Barahir (which was given to him by Finrod, the brother of Galadriel, who was Arwen's grandmother). I think it was a fitting sign of Aragorn's love.
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Old 02-18-2004, 06:58 PM   #18
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Well, I'll just mention something I learned the other day.

Remember Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth.

Here's a weird geneological tidbit about this guy. His sister was Finduilas, wife of Denethor and mother of Boromir and Faramir. Now, Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel apparently married King Eomer of the Mark after the WR. Now, Eomer is Eowyn's brother, Eowyn married Faramir, who is the step-nephew of Imrahil.

Once you put 2 and 2 together, you realize:
Imrahil is Eomer's step-father and step-uncle. Weird.
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Old 02-18-2004, 07:46 PM   #19
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Umm... no...

Faramir is Imrahil's nephew, which makes Eowyn Imrahil's niece-in-law. I suppose this would make Eomer Imrahil's nephew-in-law, or something like that.

On the other side, Imrahil would be Eomer's father-in-law.


That is actually quite a normal occurrence for noble families like that of Eomer and that of Imrahil. Often, families living in generally the same area had more than one marriage tie.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 02-18-2004, 07:56 PM   #20
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Well, I'm half right. I just had a preverbial brain lapse and mized up step- and -in-law. *slaps self with Grond in annoyance* Just remove the step- addition to all relationships and add -in-law in their place. I think that works....somewhat.
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Old 02-23-2004, 12:49 AM   #21
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Is there such a thing as 'uncle-in-law'?
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Old 03-04-2004, 03:40 PM   #22
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Silmaril Goldberry

In the first book, which feels like it's written in a different voice than the others, to me; the Hobbits are in several exciting and magical adventures before they approach Rivendell. One of them is in the woods of the neglected character(in the movie), Tom Bombadil. After being rescued by Tom from trees with dangerous minds, the Hobbits, as guests in his house, become acquainted with Goldberry. To me, she is one of the most enchanting characters in the entire story. The chapter is bursting with the kind of colorful imagery for which the books of Tolkien are reknowned, and it centers as much around Goldberry as it does Tom. Having rarely seen her name in posts or discussions relating to thematic concepts of Tolkien and in lieu of starting an independent thread, I post here because whenever I recall the scenes of that chapter in my mind, it fills me with revelation, fondness and wonder.

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Old 03-07-2004, 05:03 PM   #23
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Tolkien

How about this one:
Lthien is Fanor's half-cousin-in-law (Fanor's half-bother's wife's father's brother's daughter).
Oh! And Galadriel is Lthien 1st cousin once removed (Galadriel's mother's father's brother's daughter), and she's Thingol's great niece (Thingol's brother's daugther's daughter). Hm, Celeborn's Thingol's great nephew too, so is Celebran her own great great cousin?

How many times removed a cousin was Aragorn to Boromir and Faramir?

I wonder: if you guys like this, if you'll like my "Lore of the 5 Hobbits Rings of Power"
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Old 03-14-2004, 02:15 PM   #24
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I don't know if Aragorn was a cousin to Boromir and Faramir. The Stewards were descended from a noble Numenorean family, but not necessarily one related to the royal line.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:14 PM   #25
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yes...I was wondering about that myself. I do not nessecarily own a complete geneology of the Gondorian line, but perhaps (if someone can check) if Boromir and Faramir have some sort of familial connection to the House of Isildur?
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Old 03-14-2004, 06:10 PM   #26
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Tolkien

I found in App. A that the Stewards, after King Minardil, were descendants of Hrin of Emyn Arnen, who was "a man of high Nmenorean race". Don't think he was related to the kings though.
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Old 03-20-2004, 10:23 PM   #27
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Here's one

Turin Turumbar, Tuor's cousin, would be Arwen's great grand uncle(once removed). Tuor is her great grand dad.
Tuor - Earendil - Elrond - Arwen.
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Old 03-27-2004, 10:39 AM   #28
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Shield

I think the whole point of the relation of Aragorn to Arwen (1st cousin ? times removed) was that the royal line that was split when Luthien married a mortal (forgot his name) became pure again. I just read something about that in the appendices about elf-mortal marraiges (appendix a if you are interested). So by marrying his distant relative, of the other line, Aragorn united the two lines. Does that make sense?
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Old 03-27-2004, 05:29 PM   #29
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Actually, Aragorn's marriage to Arwen united the lines of Elros and Elrond. Elros and Elrond themselves were born of a union that united the half-elven lines begun with Luthien's marriage to Beren and Idril's marriage to Tuor. So when the appendices says
Quote:
united the long sundered lines of the half-elven
, it's referring to the half-elven Elros and Elrond (who, as the Mushroom pointed out, are actually 9/16 elven ).
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Old 03-28-2004, 02:14 AM   #30
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Wow! I have found out something interesting, just from this thread! This is all absolutely amazing. I always get kind of confused when I get to the family trees in the end, and many times I don't really pay attention. But it is very cool as many have said the way that these groups have been marrying is very similar to the royal families of Europe in many ways.

Well at least with Elrond being 9/16 elven. It gives him a very good reason to be elven, but then there is his brother...
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Old 03-30-2004, 02:57 AM   #31
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Ooh, this thread is fun! Well, think about this: Boromir and Faramir have at least as much Elvish ancestry as Aragorn - and their Elvish ancestress might still be alive, unlike Luthien. We don't know. If you remember, it says somewhere in the Appendices that an ancestor of Imrahil, Boromir and Faramir's uncle( brother to their Mum), married one of Nimrodel's ladies-in-waiting, who wandered into his kingdom, married, had a baby and, flighty being that she was, abandoned husband and baby and wandered off again. So, what do you expect from someone who hung around with Nimrodel? (Probably because it would be extremely embarrassing for poor Imrahil to have to introduce his distant ancestress to all and sundry or to have to listen to her advice...) Of course, we don't get the lady's genealogy, so if she had any other descendants or if any of her ancestors were related to Aragorn's ancestors, we don't know. Well, I don't, not having yet read the complete HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH.
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Old 03-30-2004, 09:07 AM   #32
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Quote:
Well, think about this: Boromir and Faramir have at least as much Elvish ancestry as Aragorn
Very unlikely. Aragorn's Elvish strain would be continually re-inforced by his anscestors marrying alm0st exsclusively amongst the 'noble-born' in Numenor and Arnor. The line of the Stewards, though almost purely 'Numenorean' would still have far less of the Elvish strain than the royal family of Arnor. Arwen not yet being added in either.

Quote:
Yes, this is just an excuse to use the new smiley.
Yes I clicked that one on my first post in the new format too! Kinda looks like a playmobile 'Bounder' .

I remember I was struck by the thousands of years involved in the Half-Elven--> Aragorn lineage. I doubt if too many families have kept that sort of track, ever for thousands of years. Maybe some Levitical families amongst the ultra-conservative Jews ...
and a cursory review of the above posters brought to my attention that Inkling Elf is a dweller in The City.

have you checked out the Northern California Downers thread? We are long past due for a get together.
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:23 PM   #33
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Silmaril apropos genealogies...

Quote:
...united the long sundered lines of the half-elven.
Looking at the genealogies, I noticed that in Elrond (and Elros) the lines of all the Elven houses (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar) come together as well as the lines of all 3 houses of the Edain (Beor, Hador, Haleth) (plus the Maia strain from Melian) And in Arwen, there is in addition the line of the Teleri of Aman (through her mother Celebrian)
I'm sure this is no coincidence!
Because of Arwen's marriage to Aragorn the inheritance of all this nobility will live on in Men.
As Tolkien wrote in letter #144
Quote:
...the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men) , and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to "nobility".
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Old 04-09-2004, 05:14 AM   #34
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Nice work, Guinevere. I had not really noticed about the three houses of the Eldar being combined in Elrond and Elros, although I had noticed that important Noldor had married Sindar, Teleri and Vanyar. The divine race of Melian coming through to the line of Kings through Elros is indeed an important point in Tolkien's genealogy.

Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!

Care to explain how the House of Haleth got washed into the gene pool of Elrond and Elros?
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Old 04-09-2004, 07:45 AM   #35
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Thumbs up

[QUOTE=doug*platypus]
"Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!"

Ooh, you ARE cheeky! That devout Catholic Tolkien must be spinning! I think it was probably enough for him that Aragorn was descended from kings - and the odd elf - without the goddess. He liked the notion of aristocracy and, with it, "noblesse oblige" - we see it right through LOTR. Can you name an aristocrat in the entire work who doesn't take his job as protector of the little people seriously? I can't. Aragorn has the right to rule through kingly descent, but he bloody well earns it!

Again, probably slightly off topic. What I mean is - Tolkien doesn't need any conspiracy theories or divine descent; nobility is plenty.
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:30 AM   #36
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@Doug: I don't think that Tolkien in this letter used the word "nobility" in the sense of "aristocracy" , and giving the right to rule... I think he just meant nobility of the mind, and that some of the qualities of the Elves still live on in Men:
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The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aestethic, and purely scientific aspects of the Human nature
(from letter 181)

About the descent from the House of Haleth: Halmir - Hareth (the wife of Galdor) - Huor - Earendil - Elrond
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Old 04-09-2004, 04:09 PM   #37
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Bthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Boots

Alas, Anarion, yes, Goldberry is one of those characters who seems simply to disappear off the radar after Frodo has his first experience of adoration with her. It was a sort of mini-revelation, though, I guess, and in her house Frodo does dream of the sea. Well, I guess she also gets to name him "elf-friend".

Still, a Persephone who is not in thrall to the Underworld raises all kinds of possibilities...

Bethberry

PS. Yes, I know, very tardy reply. The orcs of real life have that tendency to keep us away from middle-earth.
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Old 06-02-2004, 06:02 AM   #38
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Something I just realized while rereading RotK is that the Red Book of Westmarch has 80 chapters ("the 80th chapter was left unfinished...") and the number of combined chapters for LotR and the Hobbit is 80 - 18 in the Hobbit and 62 in LotR. It makes a lot of sense, actually, but I thought it was pretty cool the way JRRT tied it all in together.
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Old 06-02-2004, 10:14 AM   #39
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About Arwen's heritage: Not only does she have blood from the three elven races (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar/Teleri (both)) and maia, she also has from all three houses of men: Bor's house through Beren, Hador's house through Tuor and Haleth's house through Tuor's grandmother, Hareth. I actually calculated exactly how much it was from each, and I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum.
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Old 06-13-2004, 01:55 PM   #40
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Sting

I must have read the poem that begins "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning" at least five times, but I just realized that it's written in alliterative verse. I had never noticed that before.

Maybe it takes a long time for me to understand things, but I also just realized that "Forgoil" (Strawheads) is a sort of blond joke, the dark-haired Dunlendings use that name on the yellow-haired Rohirram.
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