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Old 01-25-2001, 07:49 AM   #1
Taimar
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Ring The Silmarils and the Three Rings:

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This occurred to me during the discussions on the `Rivendell` thread about the Three elven rings, and also during a brief discussion I had with the Barrow Wight in the chat room.

Mandos foretold that the `fates of Arda, earth, sea and air, lay locked within them (the Silmarils)`. In light of this prophecy, the three jewels certainly ended up in appropriate locations. Aside from the preservation of the Light of the Two Trees, no other specific attribute is associated with the Jewels of Feanor, (AFAIK).

This description seems similar to that of the Three Rings, except that they preserve time rather than light, although one could possibly argue that the light of Valinor, locked within the Silmarils, itself had an effect on how time passed. Celebrimbor was Feanor`s grandson, and desired greatly to rival his forefather`s work.

I was wondering firstly if the Three were `inspired` by the Silmarils and given the likelyhood that Celebrimbor learned much from Curufin (also a great craftsman), who would in turn have learned much from Feanor, were similar processes used in their manufacture?

Any comments?



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Old 01-25-2001, 09:59 AM   #2
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the 3 and the 3

Celebrimbor's parentage shifted [unfortunately to my mind] and at the end he was I think Sindarin from Gondolin. see UT [Galdriel and Celeborn] .

In a few of places the power of healing is ascribed to the Silmarills:
Beren after thehunting of the wolf.
At the refugee community at the mouth of the Sirion.
Also,Yavanna certainly feels she can heal the 2 trees w/ them , but this may be due to other factors than the properties of the jewels .
Again in galadriel and celeborn [I saw it when reading up on the Rivendell thread nt sure of the page]

lindil

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Old 01-25-2001, 11:43 AM   #3
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Re: the 3 and the 3

Celebrimbor's parentage shifted more than what was discussed in UT. HoME 12 discusses other parentage of Celebrimbor. However, this is likely a case of JRRT forgetting that he had stated Celebrimbor's history in LoTR. While he was willing to edit LoTR as to certain details, he generally did not make significant revisions. Thus, he would likely have not ultimately changed Celebrimbor's parentage significantly (HoME 12 shuffled him about as son of different Sons of Feanor as well as outside that house).

Re: Rings and Silmarils, I have seen an essay suggesting that the Jewels had greater power than described, both for healing and for staying the fading of the Eldar. The essay theorizes that the Rings were an attempt to either recreate or tap into the power of the Silmarils. However, the essay is a naked theory without real hard support.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Old 01-25-2001, 12:34 PM   #4
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Re: the 3 and the 3

I see you have a new title lindil.

I have a question concerning the rings of power, but i think I am going to start a new thread.

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Old 01-25-2001, 12:36 PM   #5
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essay and anscestry

Mithadan: &quot;While he was willing to edit LoTR as to certain details, he generally did not make significant
revisions. Thus, he would likely have not ultimately changed Celebrimbor's parentage significantly &quot;

I have come across an opinion of CRRT or 2 that indicates such.

re: the rings as a functional imitations of the Silmarillion , the ellesar[s] was another attempt in this direction I believe. There is little doubt that the Noldor [or some of them] were obsessed w/ Co- creative technology
whose consequences were [imo] as well thought out as thegun and automobile. And something such as the Silmarils -the supreme feat of noldorin manipulations would have become the template [on many levels] for feanors descendants and fellow craftsmen.

have to run prematurely,

lindil

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Old 01-26-2001, 08:36 AM   #6
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Re: essay and anscestry

Lindil and Mithadan, thanks for the replies. I did not mention the disputed genealogy of Celebrimbor since I thought that a matter for the Canon discussion rather than the main forum. For the purposes of my question I thought it sensible to consider him as Feanor`s grandson.

I had (carelessly) forgotten about the healing power of the Silmarils, but I was interested in the quote from your last post, Lindil. Do you recall where you read it?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_lightning.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 1/26/01 9:38:28 am
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Old 01-26-2001, 09:26 AM   #7
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Re: essay and anscestry

I think Lindil was quoting me. Though doubtlessly he has a particular reference to HoME which he may have in mind. JRRT generally approached his published material as being established as &quot;history&quot; and did not want to engage in significant modifications. An exception is his rewrite of &quot;Riddles in the Dark&quot; from the Hobbit to conform with LoTR (as originally published, Gollum promised Bilbo a gift, the Ring, if he lost the contest, but upon discovering the Ring was gone showed Bilbo out instead). CRRT occaisionally comments in HoME that an idea his father had come up with would likely have been ultimately rejected as inconsistent with LoTR.

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"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Old 01-26-2001, 10:36 AM   #8
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qoute

&quot;I think Lindil was quoting me.&quot;
yea

&quot; Though doubtlessly he has a particular reference to HoME which he may have in mind.&quot;
nay - just a mess of unmarked generalizations in my head which you summed up v. well.


Tar Elenion re: using UT/HoMe variants [disputed or otherwise] here to support or refute a point is fine [just , as you do ] name that it is UT/HoME [ I think that is the protocol I read way back somewhere] . The discussion of a particular theory[ such asCelebrombor's parentage ] does not have to take place there, most especially if it comes up in the course of a Non - Canon thread.
btw I was thinking of moving the very interesting Peredhil thread over here for that very reason.

I n addition I have been wondering if you would be interested in attempting an essay or list of the Final forms of the genealogy of the Eldarin princes [w/a wee bit of documenting as to what the sources are] this could have the dual purpose of stimulating discussion of HoME stuff here at 'the books' and would also be a great service to the Silm Proj. [which you expressed qualified interest in -just anidea-you don't have to take it too seriously]
[normally I would ask something like this via email , but your email link is not activated under the personal profile options] sorry for the long exscursion<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Re: the life - extending properties - they were [in part- leaving's Sauron's will and power aside] it seems a strange example of what would happen to evil elves [fading ]or men if they were given the coveted eternal life. It was a prison , and one can see how the Elves might indeed envy Men who were free from a possibility [other than the rings] of such fading. Instead upon dying passing into Eru's direct care, judgement or realm if you will.
Just a thought.


Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 01-27-2001, 12:33 PM   #9
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Re: quote


---------------------------------------------------------
Lindil writes:
Tar Elenion re: using UT/HoMe variants [disputed or otherwise] here to support or refute a point is fine [just , as you do ] name that it is UT/HoME [ I think that is the protocol I read way back somewhere] . The discussion of a particular theory[ such asCelebrombor's parentage ] does not have to take place there, most especially if it comes up in the course of a Non - Canon thread.
btw I was thinking of moving the very interesting Peredhil thread over here for that very reason.
----------------------------------------------------------
Tar-Elenion replies:
I am not sure why you are addressing this to me. I dont think I have made any comments about this here (although I am doing so at another site). Do you mean to address this to Taimar?



----------------------------------------------------------
I n addition I have been wondering if you would be interested in attempting an essay or list of the Final forms of the genealogy of the Eldarin princes [w/a wee bit of documenting as to what the sources are] this could have the dual purpose of stimulating discussion of HoME stuff here at 'the books' and would also be a great service to the Silm Proj. [which you expressed qualified interest in -just anidea-you don't have to take it too seriously]
[normally I would ask something like this via email , but your email link is not activated under the personal profile options] sorry for the long exscursion
-----------------------------------------------------------

Again is this for me (Tar-Elenion) or for Taimar. If it is for me I will post something of a geneological nature, but it might take a couple days. I did not realize there was an email link until you mentioned it. If you need it I will provide you my email address.

Tar-Elenion



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>
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Old 01-27-2001, 01:51 PM   #10
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misc.

Sorry for the confusion. The genealogical request was for Tar Elenion [ thanks - it might even be something the wight wants to use as an 'Essay'. I finally read letter 246[?] and it was quite good
I would love to know what is behind the 'especially Elrond'.

The reply re: HoME and UT variants was for Taimar.




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Old 01-28-2001, 09:57 PM   #11
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Re: misc.

Yeah, I don't quite understand that part since the other keeper besides Elrond and Galadriel was Gandalf.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Or is this just saying that Elrond would be more likely to do as Galadriel would do than Gandalf?



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Old 01-30-2001, 12:56 AM   #12
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Re: misc.

There was Cirdan as well who had been a Gaurdian, and Gil-galad (though long since dead). I would by extension, though the Letter only mentions Gandalf, include the other Istari with him. It is possible that one could include the other great among the Eldar with the gaurdians of the Three. But there is no way of knowing. That is why the Letter is so intriguing. Just what does he mean by 'especially Elrond'. It would seem to indicate that Elrond had some particular potency, possibly his Maia heritage.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>
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Old 11-16-2001, 02:06 PM   #13
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Hello,

Please pardon the interruption, but I think I can add to this on a positive note. Tar Eleinion is on the right track, as we must remember that Elrond Halfelven is representative of the Two Kindreds, as well as that of the Ainur. He is directly descended from Melian the Maia (the spouse of Elw), being her great-great grandson, the great grandson of Beren and Lthien (the daughter of Elw and Melian), the grandson of Dior (the son of Beren and Lthien) and Nimloth (kinswoman of Celeborn), and finally, the son of Erendil and Elwing (the daughter of Dior and Nimloth). Quite an astounding pedigree. This is not to mention the lineage on the side of the Edain.

If there is anyone left alive in Middle-earth in the Third Age capable of wielding the One Ring, given his power and wisdom, it is "especially Elrond." However, just as was the case with any of the others who had power enough (i.e. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, possibly, and Galadriel) to wield it, Elrond could never possess it. It would possess him, ultimately, and would produce a Dark Lord that would rival that of Sauron, moreso than the Dark Queen envisioned by Galadriel, but probably not as powerful as Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast. It was Sauron's Ring and was absolutely corrupt and evil.

The reason the hobbits were "chosen" to carry the "burden" of the Ring is that it was not in their nature to rule and conquer but to till and sow, with an occasional pint here and there. The composition and temperament of a hobbit would allow them to hold on to the Ring longer than would a Man or an Elf, or even a Maia, before it would eventually consume them too, turning Middle-earth into a vast garden of evil filled with Old Toby smoke-filled Springle-Ring dance halls and seedy Ale-houses. Kinda like New Jersey.
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Old 11-16-2001, 02:16 PM   #14
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Old 11-16-2001, 03:04 PM   #15
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Welcome Jamie! Great post! I suspect you are correct about why Elrond could "especially" wield the Ring, as well as its effect if Elrond attempted to do so. JRRT addresses the latter in the Council's response to Boromir's question about Elf lords taking the Ring.
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