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Old 02-26-2019, 02:18 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Leaf Lambion Ontalë

This thread will continue the Lammas with the next section, the Lambion Ontalë, or Descent of Tongues. This text is roughly equivalent in material and in scope to the original Lhammas in HoME V, but it is much more recent and updated information-wise to the later canon, so it is infinitely preferable to include.

Our basis text is that of "Lambion Ontalë" given in Parma Eldalamberon 18. Wherever the text is different from HoME V/XII, this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
LO-xx for tracking any changes to the intro text for the Lambion Ontalë.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.


Quote:
LAMBION ONTALË
The Descent of Tongues


Here is set forth the structure of the language of the Quendi or Elves, and the manner of its change in the course of time to the diverse speeches of the Quendelië or Elf-race.
Now this language the Elves began ....eldest of all tongues. Yet LO-01 {if that be so,} the Elves have {not} heard it [seldom] {, not at the least} within the days of their memory. LO-02 {It may well be}[Thus it was] that when Oromë first found the Quendelië, .... was their own and Elvish. [Footnote: Quoth Rúmil. LO-03 {So AElfwine notes.} This passage seems an excerpt from another work.]
In all that pertains to the beginnings .... from their kindred in the West.
The most ancient structure of the tongue ..... Avari as we here in LO-03.5 {Eressëa}[Eriador] have set down in these later ..... fully treated are: firstly the Quenya LO-04 {[or Elf-latin <Footnote: Quoth AElfwine.>]}, which is indeed ..... long and changeful history LO-05 {, of which a little is known to us}. Something also is said of the Telerin language of Valinor. What is known of the LO-06 {Danian}[Nandorin] tongues of old, especially that of Ossiriand, is also told. Little is said of the Avarin tongues, many and diverse, that were used of old in Middle-earth. There they linger still in remote places where the Avari hide themselves from Men.

The Division of Tongues

The whole Elf-race is named ..... or in English Quendian LO-07 {[Cwendisc: AElfwine]}.
The first division was ..... into the branches Eldarin and Avarin.
The second division befell when the followers of that lord that is named LO-08 {Nano or Dan}[Lenwë or Denweg] forsook the hosts of the Teleri upon the long march and wandered in Middle-earth. These are the Nandor, LO-09 {or Danian Elves,} [Footnote: Who were also in Ossiriand called the {Laiqendi}[Laiquendi] or Green-elves.] and their tongues ... any tongue of the Avari.
The third division befell .... Noldor were lore-masters.
The fourth division befell ..... is still the daily speech of LO-10 [Lindon]{Eressëa}.
The fifth division befell through the Exile of the Noldor who returned to Middle-earth and dwelt for well-nigh six hundred years in Beleriand. During that time their language became LO-11 {greatly} changed {, and grew to resemble the tongues of Beleriand, Sindarin and Nandorin}. Those few of the Noldor that remained in Aman became merged with the Vanyar and did not retain their own speech.
Quenderin or Quendian is thus .... which the Eldar know little, and nothing before the LO-12 {Third Age}[later ages]. LO-13 {Kalaquenderin}[Calaquenderin] is the name of the tongues .... were many and divided.]
The separate Elf-tongues that are still spoken or written, or are still in some part recorded and known to the lore-masters, are thus named as follows.
1. Quenya. This name meant in the beginning simply ‘language’ LO-14 {(see above p. 3)}, or in contrast to .... themselves in these later days. LO-15 {Also the Quenya has for ages been used as a common tongue among all the Eldar, whose native speeches have become diverse, and this tongue is no longer felt to belong to any one kindred more than to another}.
In the early days the language of the ..... even the loremasters of the Eldar know LO-16 {nothing}[little]. Moreover, the Vanyar were the .... either ancient Noldorin or Telerin.
Quenya is in its written form also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language.’ This is LO-17 {[the Elf-latin and is]} retained in spelling and grammar even as it was of old. It is used still in Valinor and in Eressëa for many kinds of writing: histories, legends, hymns, poems, and other lore.
When it is spoken, Quenya ...... is regarded as the best. LO-18 {Yet}[And] in fact the {Noldor}[Vanyar], and {especially} the loremasters among {them}[the Noldor] (for the Noldor have no rivals in learning) use both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta. This is true especially in the matter of pronunciation, since the usage of the {Vanyar}[Noldor] shows the effect of the changes in their daily speech of later days. All these matters are treated more fully below.
LO-19 {The Parmaquesta belongs to VY. 2500 at the earliest, and is contemporary with the ancient Noldorin, from which it is already widely different.}
2. Vanyarin. This name is given .... alphabet of Rúmil LO-20 {(belonging to a period about VY. 2200 or a little later)}, begin before the period of .... had as yet very little diverged.
3. Noldorin. All the speeches or dialects of the Noldor have this name, from the most ancient records in Túna, until now when the LO-21 {much changed} language of the Exiles survives still among those ..... shows from the first LO-22 [not] much divergence from Quenya (and Telerin), [but nonetheless] becoming already before the Exile a {wholly} distinct {speech}[dialect], in which many of the great changes that took place during the Exile are foreshadowed.
After the Exile that remnant of the ..... those of Hithlum, LO-23 {the Falas,} Nargothrond, and of East Beleriand (the speech of the sons of Fëanor and their people). These dialects did not differ greatly one from another.
LO-24 The language of the returned Exiles in Eressëa is derived in the main from the speech of Gondolin. So also was the Elvish speech adopted by the Atani, the Fathers of Men, and spoken by the high men of Númenor in that isle LO-25 {, and after during the Third Age upon the western shores of Middle-earth}.
4. Telerin. This name is often given ..... who remained behind.
Ancient Telerin is the name of the earliest ..... but they used letters seldom.
5. Sindarin. This is the name ..... themselves they called the LO-26 {Eglath}[Egladhrim] 'the Forsaken'.
Before the coming of the Exiled Noldor, the Sindarin (or LO-27 {Eglathrin}[Egladhrimin]) was spoken far and wide ..... with little or no change.
After the coming of the Noldor ...... east of the Isle of Eressëa.
LO-28 {In its development in Middle-earth Noldorin grew more and more to resemble Sindarin, and though when more closely observed these tongues can readily be seen to be far-sundered, yet in sound and style and idiom they are much alike. This the loremasters ascribe in the first place to the influence of the land itself, that Beleriand which is now lost in which both tongues dwelt and changed. But the influence of the peoples, one upon the other, and of their tongues was not without effect.} In spite of estrangements .... many of the Noldor took refuge with LO-29 {Thingol in Doriath}[Círdan on Balar]. There were {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] of Doriath in the remnant that gathered under Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion; and Eärendil drew his blood not only from Men, but also from both Noldor and {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar].
6. Nandorin LO-30 {, or Danian}. This people .... A branch of the LO-31 {Danian}[Nandorin] Elves, turning .... realm many took refuge with LO-32 {Thingol in Doriath}[the sons of Fëanor / Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion], and thus record was there preserved of their ancient tongue, ..... Of the East-{Danian}[Nandorin] LO-33 [and Avarin] beyond the mountains, from which it is said that the Atani, the Fathers of Men, learned much of their first speech, LO-34{nothing}[little] is now known LO-35 {in Eressëa}.

LO-36 <GA Excursus on the Languages of Beleriand

It was indeed at the landing of Fëanor LO-37 {three hundred and sixty-five long years of the Valar since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind. Now that time was in length} well-nigh {as} three thousand and five hundred years of the Sun <moved since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind>. In such an age the tongues .... new words unknown to the Sindar.
LO-38 <Words, Phrases, and Passages In the {N(W)}[northwest] there were settlements of Elves, who seldom went far abroad, and only rarely and temporarily ever passed the {Eredwethrin}[Ered Wethrin]. They must, as history and the surviving traces of their language indicate, have been mainly Teleri in origin; but a tradition lingered that some were in fact Noldor, who failed also to embark. (Not quite like Thingol, but evidently because they had explored too far away from the Shore, or had struck up friendships with the Teleri who came up behind.) Their tongue, though generally of 'Sindarin' kind in all linguistic departments, early diverged from that of the remainder of their kin-in the days of the wars and of the Noldor, and especially of the arrival of the Edain their speech had become almost a separate language though it was still in some measure intelligible. This Mithrimin left no connected records, but is preserved in many place-names and personal names, and some of its words and forms eventually became incorporated in Sindarin of Sirion. LO-39 <later in Words Phrases and Passages {The}[As the] Teleri never dwelt (before the return of Morgoth) very far from the West-shores, the center of the Northern Speech was thus in Mithrim.> (The Bëor-folk of the Edain were influenced by the LO-40 {Finrodians[?]}[sons of Finarfin] especially in personal names, during their residence in the highlands.)>
But it came to pass ere long that the Exiles ...... of the Wars of Beleriand, LO-41 {[} well-nigh {>] more than} six hundred years, were times of great change, ..... from letters remained unaltered. But LO-42 {these}[the] histories were made after ..... had in the spoken speech at the last.>

LO-43 <D&M
The Dwarves were in many ways ..... It thus served as a LO-44 {lingua franca}[common tongue] between all Dwarves of all kinds; ..... those of other race.
The Dwarves were not, however, ..... Daeron used by the Sindar was known and used. LO-45 {This was, no doubt, due to the influence of Celebrimbor, a Sinda who claimed descent from Daeron.} Nonetheless even in Eregion the Runes ..... being originally devised for them.
The {Longbeard}[Long-beard] Dwarves therefore adopted the Runes, and modified them for their own uses (especially the expression of Khûzdul); and LO-46 {they adhered to them even far into the Third Age, when they were forgotten by others except the loremasters of Elves and Men. Indeed} it was generally supposed by the unlearned that they had been invented by the Dwarves, and they were widely known as 'dwarf-letters'. LO-47 [Footnote: They did not, however, appear in the inscriptions on the West Gate of Moria. The Dwarves said that it was in courtesy to the Elves that the Fëanorian letters were used on that gate, since it opened into their country and was chiefly used by them. But the East Gates, which perished in the war against the {Orks}[Orcs], had opened upon the wide world, and were less friendly. They had borne Runic inscriptions in several tongues: spells of prohibition and exclusion in Khûzdul, and commands that all should depart who had not the leave of the Lord of Moria written in Quenya, Sindarin, the Common Speech, the languages of Rohan and of Dale and Dunland.]>

LO-48 <Lhammas The languages of Men were from their beginning diverse and various; yet they were for the most part derived remotely from the language of the LO-49 {Valar}[Elves]. For the Dark-elves, various folk of the {Lembi}[Avari], befriended wandering Men in sundry times and places in the most ancient days, and taught them such things as they knew. But other Men learned also wholly or in part of the Orcs and of the Dwarves; while in the West ere they came into Beleriand the fair houses of the Eldest Men learned of the {Danas}[Nandor], or LO-50 {Green-elves}[Silvan Elves]. But naught is preserved of the most ancient speeches of Men, save the tongue of the folk of Bëor LO-51 {and Haleth} and Hador. Now the language of these folk was greatly influenced by the Green-elves LO-52 [and Dwarves], and it was of old named Taliska, LO-53 <LQ [Footnote: From this speech came the common tongue of Númenor.]> and this tongue was known still to Tour, son of Hour, son of {Gumlin}[Galdor], son of Hador, and it was in part recorded by the wise Elves of Gondolin, where Tour for a while abode. LO-54 Yet Tour himself used this tongue no longer, for already in {Gumlin}[Galdor]’s day [many] Men in Beleriand forsook the daily use of their own tongue and spoke and gave even names unto their children in the language of the {Gnomes}[Sindar]. Yet other Men there were, it seems, that remained east of {Eredlindon}[the Ered-Lindon], who held to their speech, and from this, closely akin to Taliska, are come after many ages of change languages that live still in the North of the earth. But the swarthy folk of Bór, and of {Uldor}[Ulfang] the accursed, were not of this race, and were different in speech, but that speech is lost without record other than the names of these men.>

These letters and abbreviations are used in the following histories and grammars for the names of those Quendian tongues that are cited or mentioned.
AQ. See Q., N.
Av. Avarin.
Bel. Beleriandic. This is used as a name for all the languages of the Sindar or Grey-Elves (more properly called Sindarin). It does not include {Danian}[Nandorin], since Ossiriand though in fact part of Beleriand was regarded as a separate country.
C. Common: as in CE, CQ.
LO-55{Dan}[Nan.] {Danian, or} Nandorin. Unless noted the language of Ossiriand is intended. {WDan.}[WNan.] for West-{Danian}[Nandorin], and {EDan.}[ENan.] for East-{Danian}[Nandorin] are also used.
Dor. Doriathrin. The chief Sindarin dialect; that of Doriath, the realm of King Thingol.
E. Eldarin. This includes Vanyarin, Noldorin and Telerin (and its branches Sindarin and Nandorin). CE 'Common Eldarin' is the language of the Eldar before their divisions.
Ex.N. Exilic or Etya-noldorin, the language of the Exiled Noldor in Beleriand.
Fal. The dialect of the Falas, LO-56 {either of Noldorin (Fal.N.), or}a dialect of Sindarin (Fal.S.) {, as the case may be}.
Fe., or Fean. Fëanorian: the eastern dialect of Noldorin in Exile.
Gon. Gondolinian dialect of Noldorin.
LO-57 {Hith. N. dialect of Hithlum.}
K. or KQ. {Kalaquendian}[Calaquenderin]: the language of the Elves of Valinor (insofar as it showed common features distinct from the {Alamanya}[Úmanya] Eldar). For this Val. or V. is often used as in VTel.
LO-58 <moved from above {Hith. N.}[Mith., Sindarin] dialect of {Hithlum}[Mithrim].>
N. Noldorin. Where unspecified this usually refers to Exilic or Ex.N., Exilic Noldorin.
AN. Ancient Noldorin.
Os. Ossiriandrin.
Q. Quenya. Where it is necessary to distinguish: PQ denotes the Parmaquesta (or more archaic book-language), and TQ the Tarquesta. AQ refers to the Ancient Quenya (or earliest recorded form of Vanyarin). But in CQ Q stands for Quenderin and CQ refers to the primitive language of all the Elves or Quendi before their separation.
S. Sindarin.
T. Telerin. AT. Ancient Telerin.
LO-01: This contradicts what is said in the later text of Q&E, since Rúmil is said to have stuied the Valarin, and so did Fëanor. However, I think it is ambiguous enough inthis edited form.

LO-02: Continuation of the editing about the Valarin.

LO-03: Removed a reference to AElfwine.

LO-03.5: Apologies for the weird numbering, but I found this after I had written out the rest of the post and I didn't want to go back and change all the numbers. This reference to Eressea must be removed since we are told in Q&E that the Lammas is written in Eriador.

LO-04: Removed a reference to AElwine and 'elf-latin' which is problematic.

LO-05: Pengolodh is half-sindarin, he knows the whole language. When this was written, Sindarin was a curiosity, and the language we know now as Sindarin was called Noldorin. This is the source of a lot of changes to this text, but if you bear with them, I think you'll find we can make it work.

LO-06: Changed because Dan was changed to Denweg, and Danian to Nandorin.

LO-07: Removed a reference to AElfwine and his unnecessary old-english footnote.

LO-08: I used both the later names of Denweg instead of the earlier ones.

LO-09: Removed the 'Danian' from the reference.

LO-10: Another change because of the change of location for the writing of the Lammas and its transmission.

LO-11: This is explicitly not true, since later he decided that Quenya was only used as a language of lore in the wider realm of Beleriand, and it did not change much at all.

LO-12: If this is from Eressea and Bilbo is translating it, it must have come through the Numenoreans in the Second Age, so no mention of Third Age is allowed.

LO-13: This is a simple linguistic update changing the K to C and the q to qu.

LO-14: Removed a page reference.

LO-15: This is no longer true since he introduced the story of Thingol banning Quenya later on. If anything, Sindarin is the common language, but even that is hardly true everywhere.

LO-16: This is changed because of the Valarin we have from Q&E.

LO-17: removed because it does not function as an equivalent to latin as a common tongue any longer.

LO-18: In the Shibboleth we learn that the Vanyar use the older forms of the language, as well as in pieces of Q&E. Therefore we must change this around. I think my editing here works, even though it is somewhat manipulative.

LO-19: Not only can this not be used because of the uncertainty of the Valian years, but the statement is untrue in later canon as well.

LO-20: Removed for a reference to the Valian Years.

LO-21: The language did not change too much, although it did change somewhat through the influence of Telerin and Sindarin.

LO-22: Added to reflect the same point as the last change. The Quenya of the Noldor did not change nearly as drastically as he envisioned it. Remember, he is still thinking of 'Noldorin' as what we now know as Sindarin, which would indeed be a dramatic change. But since that is no longer true, and Quenya was preserved as a tongue of lore, it did not change nearly so much as he indicates here.

LO-23: The Falas dialect was a Sindarin dialect, not Noldorin.

LO-24: This is a reference to the language on Eressea, but since this work is written in Eriador, I am unsure if and how we should change it. In addition, Sindarin affected the speech of Men more, since Thingol outlawed it. Also, Quenya and Sindarin were both spoken in Númenor, and neither were the common language of the people. We may consider removing this whole paragraph, or editing it severely, but I am unsure.

LO-25: If we keep this paragraph, we will at least need to remove this sentence, since the Lammas was written in the second age in Eriador, and so Pengolodh cannot know of the Third Age.

LO-26: Update of the name per Q&E

LO-27: Same as the last.

LO-28: They did not draw closer together, since Thingol outlawed Quenya, which became a book language. Therefore this whole passage is unusable.

LO-29: This is a risky change, but we know it is true, and Thingol never took Noldorin refugees into Doriath, since he banned them from his kingdom.

LO-30: Removed reference to Danian elves.

LO-31: Name update.

LO-32: This is a risky one. We may not need to replace it, since some of the Elves did go to Doriath, but in addition, Ossiriand was never destroyed by Morgoth, and the Nandor lived there long into the later ages. Therefore, I am unclear what is meant by the ruin of their realm. We may assume they fled during the War of Wrath, but if so Doriath was already destroyed by the Sons of Feanor, hence my other two options.

LO-33: Men are also said elsewhere to learn from the Avari.

LO-34: We know some east-nandorin words, since Lorien and Mirkwood are East-Nandorin, and we know some Avarin as well, since we have Avarin words that are mentioned in Q&E.

LO-35: Removed Eressea reference.

LO-36: I added this section in because nowhere in the Lambion Ontale does Tolkien discuss the very important linguistic development of Sindarin and Thingol's forbidding of spoken Quenya. Much is here that fits well into this material, and I think it is a worthy place to include it, since we did not take it up into the Volume 1 chapters.

LO-37: Removed because of the uncertainties of Valian Years.

LO-38: This bit from Words, Phrases, and Passages I added to give the necessary explanation of the Mithrim dialect which we learn about later in Q&E, which was a later development. I think this works well here.

LO-39: Relevant fact added.

LO-40: The word is awkward, and CT himself puts a ? after it as if he is unsure. Therefore I think we should change it.

LO-41: The final versions of the ending years of the First Age are very unclear to me, and I am unsure if this original reading is accurate. Perhaps someone with better understanding of the dates could suggest an edit here?

LO-42: Changed from these, bc originally 'these' was referring to the Grey Annals from which this section was lifted, and is now no longer a preface to them.

LO-43: This part of the discussion of the language of the Dwarves has not been used by us yet, but should be, and could not be used in the Second Age sections either, due to the abstract linguistic nature of it.

LO-44: replaced english idiom (as we have done before with this term.)

LO-45: This was an earlier conception that was changed.

LO-46: Removed bc the Lammas was written in the Second Age.

LO-47: This can probably stay, but I wanted to make sure none objected to it due to its relation to the previous third age comment.

LO-48: This information naming the language of the Bëorings and Hadorians is not given elsewhere, and is not (to my knowledge) incompatible with anything later.

LO-49: Elvish is no longer sourced from the Valar.

LO-50: Technically the Green-elves only aplied to those who came to Beleriand. Silvan seems the more general term, so I have used that.

LO-51: They are said to have a different tongue.

LO-52: Per the Dwarves and Men insertion above.

LO-53: I think this footnote from LQ is worth repeating here.

LO-54: It is said that Adunaic comes from this language, so they cannot have been said to forgotten it. It is said that in Hador’s household only Sindarin was spoken, but that the poeple kept the memory of the tongue alive. I need some help figuring out how to resolve this.

LO-55: Changed to reflect the change from Danian to Nandorin. We may also discuss here if we even want to include this whole section on abbreviations, since elsewhere we do not use them. The Lambion Ontale was only the first section of a larger work called the Tengwesta Quenderinwa, which went into much more detail about the structure of the elvish language. I discussed with gondowe about including the other sections, but they are purely linguistic and do not relate to history at all. They would require someone with a much much deeper understanding of elvish than I possess to edit. He was against including them, and I am inclined to agree, since they seem to me to lie outside the scope of the project. We may thus remove this abbreviation section, since it won't be used if we do not use the later sections of the Tengwesta.

LO-56: If we keep this section, we need to change this. There was no Noldorin dialect of the Falas, since there were no Noldor there.

LO-57: Because we are going to change Hith. to Mith. (because of the Mithrim language) it changes places alphabetically.

LO-58: This is the proper place alphabetically for it.

Whew that was a lot. Hopefully this chapter can make some sense to you all.
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Old 03-01-2019, 07:12 PM   #2
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Great job on this chapter Arcus! Some great editing and careful thought clearly went into it. I will admit to not being an expert in the languages Tolkien created, so I'm sorry I don't have more substantive comments.

LO-04 I recently re-read Appendix F in LotR, which actually uses the term "Elven-latin". Are we removing any reference to "Elf-latin" even though it is in the published LotR? The first rule of the project is that published works during Tolkien's lifetime take priority. I'm OK with the change of removing references to "Elf-latin" if it was Tolkien's later idea and it makes the history and linguistic situation more coherent, I just wanted to make sure you knew the term was used in Appendix F.

LO-05 I interpreted "of which a little is known to us" as referring to its long and changeful history.

LO-03.5 and LO-12: Is this text from Eressea or Eriador? If it's from Eriador, does it have to be from the Second Age?

LO-18: Let me make sure I understand this change. In Tolkien's later conception, do the Noldor use "both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta"? Or did Tolkien reject that idea? I get that the Vanyar use the older form of the language, so it makes sense to change "the usage of the Vanyar" to "the usage of the Noldor", but I don't understand why the change "in fact the Noldor" to "in fact the Vanyar" must needs be made.

LO-21: How about just removing "much"? In LO-11 "greatly" was removed to achieve the same effect.

LO-24: It seems fine to me to keep this paragraph (with the removal of the end as in LO-25. Even though the work was written in Eriador, Pengolodh could still have knowledge of the language of Eressea. Also, it doesn't say Noldorin is the common language of the Numenoreans, it just says it was "spoken by the high men" there.

LO-28 I think we can keep the last sentence, which serves as a nice segue:

Quote:
LO-28b {In its development in Middle-earth Noldorin grew more and more to resemble Sindarin, and though when more closely observed these tongues can readily be seen to be far-sundered, yet in sound and style and idiom they are much alike. This the loremasters ascribe in the first place to the influence of the land itself, that Beleriand which is now lost in which both tongues dwelt and changed.} But the influence of the peoples, one upon the other, and of their tongues was not without effect. In spite of estrangements and enmities...
LO-29 We absolutely need to change the Noldor taking refuge with Thingol in Doriath. This looks good to me.

LO-32 This seems risky to me. The "ruin of their realm" could be interpreted not to mean the complete destruction of Ossiriand, but the casualties they took as reported in "The Coming of Denethor" in HoME XI:

Quote:
Now these were a woodland folk and had no weapons of metal, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North affrayed them sorely, as the Naugrim reported. Therefore Denethor, the son of Dan, hearing rumour of the might of Thingol and his majesty, and of the peace of his realm, gathered such host of his scattered folk as he could and led them over the mountains into Beleriand. There they were welcomed by Thingol, as kin long lost that return, and they dwelt in Ossiriand in the south of his
kingdom.
I say we keep this as is.

LO-40 I agree "Finrodians" is awkward, but do we know it was just the sons of Finarfin who influenced the Beor-folk, i.e. Galadriel had no influence? Maybe we should change it to "the people of Finarfin"?

LO-41 I will have to look into this more.

LO-47 I think this is fine as a footnote, since footnotes imply editorial additions which could come later.

LO-54 Couldn't the Men east of the Ered-Lindon who held to their speech be the ones who develop Adunaic?

LO-55 I personally would vote for removing this section if we do not use the abbreviations later.

One last point: since we include some information about the language of the Dwarves and Men in this chapter, could we include more material from Appendix F of LotR? Have we used that material elsewhere?
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Old 03-02-2019, 05:23 PM   #3
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LO-04: He changed the sense in which he meant the term. In Appendix F, he uses 'elf-latin' to refer to its quality as a language of lore and antiquity. But here he uses it to refer to its quality as a common tongue between various peoples, as Latin was for the christians in middle-ages Europe. Therefore I changed it. In addition, Appendix F is written from the Point of view of Tolkien the professor, whereas the Lambion Ontale is written from the point of view of Pengolodh of gondolin, who would of course have no such word as 'elf-latin.'

LO-05: I do not see how this could be what he meant. At the time this was written, he had invented no 'Sindarin' as we know it. To him it was an unknown language. That is what he refers to. In addition, we now know a great deal about its development, so we can hardly say not much was known about that either.

LO-3.5/12: We have this quote from Q&E:
Quote:
Pengolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until far on into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the Dwarves of Casarrondo (Khazad-dûm). But when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle-earth, the last of the Lambengolmor, and sailed to Eressëa, where maybe he still abides.
as well as this:
Quote:
Our knowledge [Footnote: By which Pengolodh meant the knowledge available in Middle-earth. The Lammas was composed in Eriador.] is therefore now limited ...
Both of these require that the Lammas be composed in Eriador before the end of the Second Age.

LO-18: I think I am confused by your question. Here is the original version of the text:
Quote:
Yet in fact the Noldor, and especially the loremasters among them (for the Noldor have no rivals in learning) use both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta. This is true especially in the matter of pronunciation, since the usage of the Vanyar shows the effect of the changes in their daily speech of later days.
and here is the updated version:
Quote:
And in fact the Vanyar, and the loremasters among the Noldor (for the Noldor have no rivals in learning) use both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta. This is true especially in the matter of pronunciation, since the usage of the Noldor shows the effect of the changes in their daily speech of later days.
The Vanyar kept to the older sound and form of the language. The loremasters of the Noldor did as well, as they were interested in preserving the original tongue. However, the daily speech of the Noldor drew more towards the Teleri. Hopefully this clears it up?

LO-21: Good point, I agree to only remove 'much.'

LO-24: Very well, but I think we should change 'language' to 'languages' due to the fact that both Quenya and Sindarin were spoken there:
Quote:
LO-24 The languages of the returned Exiles in Eressëa {is}are derived in the main from the {speech}tongues of Gondolin. So also was the Elvish speech adopted by the Atani, the Fathers of Men, and spoken by the high men of Númenor in that isle LO-25 {, and after during the Third Age upon the western shores of Middle-earth}.
I changed speech to tongues because 'speeches' is not used in that way generally in my experiences, but perhaps I am wrong and it should simply be 'speeches'.

LO-28b: Agreed.

LO-32: You are correct, I had not considered this. I will leave it as is.

LO-40: Perhaps 'children'? 'People' makes me think of those elves who stayed behind with Finarfin in Valinor.

LO-54: That's true, but we are told explicitly that the Edain were the ones who founded Numenor, and they were given the island because they fought in the war of wrath. Therefore, Adunaic must be derived from them.

LO-55: Yeah I am inclined to remove it.

Last Point: I had not thought of this, but it is true that portions of Appendix F might fit nicely in here. However, we would need to be selective, since Appendix F is largely focused on the issue of 'translation' from these languages into English, and so is often outside the scope of the Lammas. But any information on Westron from there would fit nicely into this work.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 03-02-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 03-03-2019, 08:05 PM   #4
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To those comments I don't respond to, I agree.

LO-18: OK, I get it now.

LO-40: I think "children of Finarfin" is probably the safest choice. Although I do like the sound of "Finarfinians".

LO-54: Then I think the only explanation must be that not all Men abandoned the language. The addition of "many" makes this more clear.

I added in parts Appendix F; almost all of the changes are references to events/people/places in the Third Age. There is lots of good stuff, it would seem a shame if we didn't use it anywhere. The section in Appendix F on Elves is a summary of what is included here, and the section on the Dwarves explicitly talks about their relationship with Men in the Third Age (or is a repeat of what is already included here). I propose adding this to the end of what you already have:

Quote:
< LO-55 Appendix F The Westron was a Mannish speech...against the Dark Power of the North.
After the overthrow of the Dark Power...the Kings of Men, whom the Elves called the Dúnedain.
The Dúnedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue; for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing little with the passing of the years. And their men of wisdom learned also the High-elven Quenya and esteemed it above all other tongues, and in it they made names for many places of fame and reverence, and for many men of royalty and great renown. [Footnote: Quenya, for example, are the names Númenor (or in full Númenóre), and Elendil, Isildur, and Anárion LO-56 .{, and all the royal names of Gondor, including Elessar ‘Elfstone’. Most of the names of the other men and women of the Dúnedain, such as Aragorn, Denethor, Gilraen are of Sindarin form, being often the names of Elves or Men remembered in the songs and histories of the First Age (as Beren, Húrin). Some few are of mixed forms, as Boromir.}]
But the native speech of the Númenóreans remained for the most part...spread thence along the coasts among all that had dealings with Westernesse.
After the Downfall of Númenor, ...In the days of the Númenórean kings this ennobled Westron speech spread far and wide, even among their enemies; and it became used more and more by the Dúnedain themselves LO-57{, so that at the time of the War of the Ring the elven-tongue was known to only a small part of the peoples of Gondor, and spoken daily by fewer. These dwelt mostly in Minas Tirith and the townlands adjacent, and in the land of the tributary princes of Dol Amroth.} Yet the names of nearly all places and persons in the realm of Gondor were of Elvish form and meaning. A few were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless from the days before the ships of the Númenóreans sailed the Sea; among these were Umbar, Arnach and Erech; and the mountain-names Eilenach and Rimmon. Forlong was also a name of the same sort.
Most of the Men of the northern regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related to the Adûnaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. LO-58 {From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses. They still spoke their ancestral tongue, and gave new names in it to nearly all the places in their new country; and they called themselves the Eorlings, or the Men of the Riddermark. But the lords of that people used the Common Speech freely, and spoke it nobly after the manner of their allies in Gondor; for in Gondor whence it came the Westron kept still a more gracious and antique style. }
Wholly alien was the speech of the Wild Men of Drúadan Forest. Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. LO-59 {The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin.} But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain LO-60 .{, hating the Rohirrim.}
LO-61 {Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said). Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn ‘west’.}

LO-62 {The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age were the Onodrim or Enyd. Ent was the form of their name in the language of Rohan. They}Ents were known to the Eldar in ancient days...but they had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it.
Ents were, however, themselves skilled in tongues, learning them swiftly and never forgetting them. But they preferred the languages of the Eldar, and loved best the ancient High-elven tongue. LO-63 {The strange words and names that the Hobbits record as used by Treebeard and other Ents are thus Elvish, or fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion. 1 Some are Quenya: as Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor, which may be rendered ‘Forestmanyshadowed-deepvalleyblack Deepvalleyforested Gloomyland’, and by which Treebeard meant, more or less: ‘there is a black shadow in the deep dales of the forest’. Some are Sindarin: as Fangorn ‘beard-(of)-tree’, or Fimbrethil ‘slender-beech’. }

Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people LO-64 .{as it was in the language of Rohan.} In Sindarin it was orch. LO-65 {Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urukhai, snaga ‘slave’. }
The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days...so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes.
LO-66 {So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish. In this jargon tark, ‘man of Gondor’, was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent; see p. 1185. }
It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in LO-67 {the Third Age}later days wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh ‘fire’, but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor. LO-68 {The inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech, while the curse of the Mordor orc on p. 579 was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower, of whom Grishnákh was the captain. Sharkû in that tongue means old man.}

LO-69 {Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog.} In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, {these}trolls were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness. Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.
LO-70 {But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.}
LO-56: These names wouldn't be known in the Second Age.

LO-57: Reference to the War of the Ring

LO-58: The Rohirrim don't appear in the histories until the Third Age.

LO-59: The Dead Men of Dunharrow refers to a people of the Third Age.

LO-60-62, 64: References to the Rohirrim.

LO-63: Explanation of words used in LotR

LO-65: Uruk-hai don't appear until the Third Age.

LO-66-68,70: Third age stuff

LO-69: Explanation of the usage of the word "Troll"

It seems that the decision to make this work The Lammas is somewhat restricting since we can't include anything about the Third Age. Could we say in LH-01 that this is "based on" or "derived from" the in-universe 'Account of Tongues'?
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:17 PM   #5
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I see the issue with this being 'the Lammas.' This is something we must discuss as a group. Personally, I am open to the idea of being more vague in the language, since we know we do not have the full Lammas, since Q&E is said to be Aelfwine's summary of a part of the Lammas, and the Osanwe-Kenta is said to be his summary of a part of it as well where Pengolodh talks about osanwe. However, even if this was a summary of the Lammas and not the true thing, it would still not include Third Age stuff. Buuuut we have put information out of time in other areas so I am torn. I would like Fin's opinion on this.

As to the addition, it looks good at the moment. We may need to look into HoME 12 to see if there are any expansions that can be made, since there is much that relates to the formation of Appendix F there.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:56 PM   #6
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I'm not saying ours would be a summary of an in-universe Lammas, but that it would be based on the in-universe text. In which case additional material about the Third Age has been added to it. Maybe by Bilbo himself later in the Third Age. It feels incomplete as a document discussing the history and evolution of the languages without giving the full picture, i.e. Third Age stuff. I will see if there's anything from HoME 12 we could include.
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:16 PM   #7
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At long last I found some time to review this chapter. Solid work, ArcusCalion! To everythings I do not comment I agree.
About our text and it’s in Univers history: We have long since left behind the idea that what we creat could claim any kind of existence in Arda of the earlier Ages (let’s say anthing before the change from the Sixth to the Seventh Age of the Sun). Therefore I would add more freely information that could not be known by Pengolodh.
But that means of course that we must change some things from the beginning of the Lammas. I will address all these change while going throught the text:

LO-01.5: At the start we have to tell what we consider our text to be:
Quote:
This is LO-01.5<editorial addition mainly drawn from> the 'Account of Tongues' which {Pengolod}[Pengolodh] of Gondolin wrote in later days in LH-02{Tol-eressea}[Eriador], using the work of Rúmil the sage of {Tun}[Tirion]. LH-03{This account Ælfwine saw when he came into the West.}
DP-10b: I think we overlooked this:
Quote:
... And so still it goes in Middle-earth. DP-10b{
Yet long since, Ælfwine, the fashion of the World was changed; and we that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of our being: so that now we preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless here at last in Eressëa our tongues are steadfast; and here over a wide sea of years we speak now still little otherwise than we did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.}

Sin Quentë Quengoldo
(Thus spoke {Pengoloð}[Pengolodh])
DP-10.5<moved from above
Yet {long since, Ælfwine,}[after Pengolodh left] the fashion of the World was changed; and DP-11{we}[those] that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of {our}[their] being: so that now {we}[they] preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless DP-11.5{here at last }in Eressëa {our}[their] tongues are steadfast; and {here}[there] over a wide sea of years {we}[they] speak now still little otherwise than {we}[they] did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.
LO-03b: I think under what is said above the remark about the ‘excerpt from another work’ must go.
Quote:
… whence so ever derived, was their own and Elvish.[Footnote to the text: Quoth Rúmil. LO-03b{So Ælfwine notes. This passage seems an excerpt from another work.}]
LO-03.5b: In the view of what was said we should remove the ‘we’:
Quote:
... together with such records of the Avari as LO-03.5b{we here}[where set down] in {Eressëa have set down}[Eriador] in {these }later days. ...
LO-06: Was not Danian here italic?

LO-10: Equally where Pengolodh is, he may know that Sindarin the daily speech on Tol Eressëa. Therefore I think the change is unnecessary from the start and with the changes we did to get free from Pengolodh’s view point it does not makes sence at all.

LO-11: I agree to this change. Tolkien thought of Eöl as an Avari, so it is not really believable that Pengolodh could not learn any thing about theire speech before he returned to Eressëa.

Before LO-17: ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language.’ This is ...’ must be ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language’. This is ...’.

LO-22.5: I think we should just for the reason of safety remove the great changes in Etya-noldorin:
Quote:
... On the other hand Túnanoldorin or Túnarin[Footnote to the text: For after a while the Vanyar forsook Túna, and there only the Noldor dwelt.] is contemporary with Parmaquesta, and shows from the first LO-22[ not] much divergence from Quenya (and Telerin),[ but nonetheless] becoming already before the Exile a{ wholly} distinct {speech}[dialect], in which many of the LO-22.5{great }changes that took place during the Exile are foreshadowed.
LO-24b: I am okay with the change to plural, and I don’t know if ‘speeches’ is useable. If you, as a native speak, find that usage strange we probably should remove it.

LO-25: With the changes discussed above, this half-sentence should be kept.

LO-29: I would edit this a bit differently. The main cauldron for such mixing as is described here would be the Havens of Sirion, I guess. Therefore this would be my way to edit:
Quote:
... For many of the {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] joined the hosts of the Noldo-chieftains; and in the days of defeat many of the Noldor took refuge LO-29b[ together ]with {Thingol in Doriath}[Sindar]. There were {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] of Doriath in the remnant that gathered under Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion; and Eärendil drew his blood not only from Men, but also from both Noldor and {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar].
LO-32: I think this speaks about the death of Denethor in the first Battle of Beleriand. And I would keep it at that by this edit:
Quote:
They were called the ‘Green-elves’ (Laiquendi in Quenya) by the other folk of Beleriand. After the LO-32b{ruin of their realm}[death of their leader] many took refuge with Thingol in Doriath, and thus record was there preserved of their ancient tongue, and is kept still, though incomplete, in Eressëa.
LO-37: I think we must remove the ‘well-nigh 3500 years of the Sun’:
Quote:
It was indeed at the landing of Fëanor LO-37b{three hundred and sixty-five long years}[more than three long Ages] of the Valar since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind.{ Now that time was in length well-nigh as three thousand and five hundred years of the Sun. }In such {an age}[a time] the tongues of Men ...
LO-40: I think ‘House of Finrafin’ worls very well here.

LO-41: This is proberlbly over done. The Wars of Beleriand started before the rising of the Sun, so even if the the First Age of the Sun ended in the year 590 F.A. the period of mingling could be morer then 10 years longer. But we would thus specifiy that the Valian Year was more then 10 times longer then a Sun year. And since we should avoid that, I am okay with ArcusCalions edit to the old statement.

LO-42.5: What about a sub-heading before LO-43? I would say ‘Of other Races’ from LotR, Appendix F would fit here very well.

LO-46: I think we should keep the usage of the Runes into the Third Age.

Behind LO-54:
- Why did you add ‘the’ before Ered-Lindon? For me it reads strange.
- Why did you change Uldor to Ulfang?

Addition from Appendix F: Oops! These editing markers by gandalf85 deteriorate the numbering by ArcusCalion! Many of them are thus doubled! To avoid this we should name all the markers for this addition LO-AF-zz, but keep the once established number (thus staring with LO-AF-55 and ending with LO-AF-70, so fare).

In these additions there is a lot of Italic to be added.

LO-AF-56 to LO-AF-68 and LO-AF-70: All these delition are based on the assumption that we can not use Thrid Ages information. As I think we should skip that assumption, we should keep the text of the original intact.

The speech of Dunland (paragraphs including LO-AF-59 to LO-AF-61): I remember that we have the info that Dunlandish was the speech of the Haladin of the First Age. Since that was alien to the speeches of the Houses of Beor and Hador, which were akin and did grow together into Andunaic, the Númenoreans missed to recognise the Dunlendings as akin. Maybe we should add that info here, but I have to search for the source.

LO-AF-61: Even so we keep the text we have to change the reference:
Quote:
LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], save the name ...
LO-AF-62: Here a big chunk of text was not used. I think we should mark that in our editing marker. Or should we include the remarks about the hobbits here?

LO-AF-63.5: At the start of the paragraph about Orcs, ‘Orcs and the Black Speech’ was deleted. I think we should document that.

LO-AF-66 & LO-AF-68: Even so we keep the text, the references to pages of LotR must be deleted.

Behind LO-AF-69: ‘trolls’ must be capitalised.

LO-AF-69.5: I would us at the end of the paragraph about the ‘normal’ Trolls the info about the Sindarin name:
Quote:
... and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech. LO-AF-69.5<editorial addition Their name in Sindarin was Torog.>
LO-55: If we skip these as we probably should, we have to replace all later usages of these abbreviations by their here given meaning.

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Old 03-05-2019, 05:18 PM   #8
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LH-01.5: Agreed.

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: Agreed, but I would change "after Pengolodh left" to "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth" to be clearer and keep to Tolkien's style more.

LO-03b: Agreed.

LO-03.5: Agreed, but it should be 'were' not 'where.'

LO-06: Yes, that is a simple slip-up on my posting in the private forum.

LO-10: Very well, we can leave it as it is in the original.

LO-11: I am unsure why you mention Eol here, since this marker refers to the statement that Quenya became more like Sindarin in Middle-earth.

LO-17: Good catch.

LO-22.5: Very nice catch Fin! Agreed.

LO-24b: We may use speeches. I would rather not remove it if we do not need to. It is a minor thing, and as far as I know is not incorrect, it simply sounds unusual to me.

LO-25: Agreed. It is nice not to have to remove so much information.

LO-29: I agree in principle, but I would also remove the 'with' and change your 'Sindar' to 'among the Sindar.'

LO-32: This seems like a riskier change but I am not entirely opposed. But I wonder if it is necessary? Why not leave it as 'ruin of their realm' and leave it to the reader to interpret the meaning?

LO-37: Agreed.

LO-40: Why is Children bad?

LO-41: I am glad I seem to have stumbled my way to an acceptable edit here! I was not confident about the timeline at all.

LO-42.5: Splendid!

LO-44.5: Because of the additions from the Appendix F below, I saw this which I think can be included here:
Quote:
.... seldom learned by those of other race.
LO-44.5 <Appendix F In {this history}the histories it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! 'Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'
Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and 'inner' names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to any one of alien race. Not even on their tombs do they inscribe them.>
The Dwarves were not, .....
LO-46: Because of the edits about the timing we should indeed keep it.

LO-54: We can remove 'the.' As for {Uldor}[Ulfang] is that not a later change of Tolkien's? I may have been mistaken.

LO-55: Yes we must be vigilant about that going forward.

LO-AF-56-68/70: Agreed, we can keep the text.

LO-AF-59-61: Did we not use this material elsewhere?

LO-AF-61b: Agreed.

LO-AF-62: We mus include the Hobbit information if we are giving the third age info, and it is in this section that the greatest amount of expansion will be found in the texts of HoME 12. I would, however, leave out the title.

LO-AF-63.5: Agreed.

LO-AF-66/68: Agreed.

LO-AF-69/69.5: Agreed.
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Old 03-05-2019, 07:08 PM   #9
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I'm glad we are including the Third Age material. To those comments I don't respond to, I agree:

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: I agree with ArcusCalion's "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth".

LO-29: I agree to "among the Sindar".

LO-32: I agree with Arcus that this seems like too much of a change. I would leave it a "ruin of their realm" which is open to interpretation.

LO-40: I was actually thinking something like "House" might be more appropriate. When Tolkien says "Finrodians" we are not sure if he is referring to the family/children of Finarfin or the followers of Finarfin (or both). I think House of vague enough to retain the ambiguity of the original "Finrodians".

LO-42.5: This is a good idea, as "Excursus on the Languages of Beleriand" was becoming increasingly inaccurate as a sub-title.

LO-44.5: Agreed to including this.

LO-54: I just assumed this change was right. Looking at the HoME Index I don't think it is.

LO-AF-62 I agree with using the Hobbit material but not having a separate sub-title.

One small fix: in the Word document I have between LO-07 and LO-08 there is an Avari with a symbol above the second a: Avări. It should be removed.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:29 PM   #10
Findegil
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DP-10.5: Okay we will take ‘after Pengolodh departed Middle-earth’.

DP-03.5: Thanks for catching that typo.

LO-11: Oops! Bad mistake of mine. The comment was meant for LO-12, where you changed the statement about the lake of knowledge about Avarin from ‘before the Thrid Age’ to ‘belore later Ages’.

LO-29: There is big difference in meaning between ‘together with Sindar’ and ‘among Sindar’. The only example I can think of for ‘among Sindar’ are the Isle of Balar, where some Nodlor dwelt among the people of Círdan. But ‘together with Sindar’ could be said about all later refuges: Isle of Balar (see above) and Havens of Sirion as well as Amon Ereb where mixed people lived under moer or less Noldorin rulers.

LO-32: Okay, I agree to let the text stand as it is. Since no new ruler was declared the death of Denethor in a way destroyed the realm.

LO-40: We speak about languages. It is impossible to change a language by some Lords of the Eldar talking to some Lords of the Edain. Therefore we are her talking about the people ruled by the House of Beor living in close contact to the people ruled by the House of Finrafin. That is why I would not use ‘Children of Finrafin’.

LO-44.5: Very nice addition! Agreed.

LO-54: ‘Ulfang the Black’ was the father and the leader of the folk, while ‘Uldor the Accursed’ was the son and leader in the treason and with that the more prominent figure. Both are included in our text. I would let ‘Uldor the Accursed’ stand. If we change, we should change to ‘Ulfang the Black’.

LO-AF-58.5, LO-AF-60.5 and LO-AF-60.6: Yes the material was used at the end of Tal-Elmar where we describe the classification of men by the Númenoreans. Nonetheless I think we should use the information here again:
Quote:
Wholly alien was the speech of the Wild Men of Drúadan Forest. Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of LO-AF-58.5<Of Dwarves and Man {Thus many of} the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath>. These{the} peoples{ that} had dwelt also in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. LO-AF-59b The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain LO-AF-60b , hating the Rohirrim. LO-AF-60.5<Of Dwarves and Man {were as}As later historians recognized they were the kin of the Folk of Haleth.> LO-AF-60.6<Of Dwarves and Man [Footnote to the text: {This may have been one of the reasons why the Numenoreans failed to recognize the Forest-folk of Minhiriath as 'kinsmen', and confused them with Men of the Shadow; for as}As has been noted the native language of the Folk of Haleth was not related to the language of the Folks of Hador and Bëor.]>
LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], ...
LO-AF-62C: Okay that would mean like this:
Quote:
... there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn ‘west’.
LO-AF-61.1{OF HOBBITS
}The Hobbits of the Shire and of Bree had at LO-AF-61.2{this time}the ende of the Thrid Age, for probably a thousand years, adopted the Common Speech. They used it in their own manner freely and carelessly; though the more learned among them had still at their command a more formal language when occasion required.
There is no record of any language peculiar to Hobbits. In ancient days they seem always to have used the languages of Men near whom, or among whom, they lived. Thus they quickly adopted the Common Speech after they entered Eriador, and by the time of their settlement at Bree they had already begun to forget their former tongue. This was evidently a Mannish language of the upper Anduin, akin to that of the Rohirrim; though the southern Stoors appear to have adopted a language related to Dunlendish before they came north to the Shire.[Footnote to the text: The Stoors of the Angle, who returned to Wilderland, had already adopted the Common Speech; but Déagol and Sméagol are names in the Mannish language of the region near the Gladden.]
Of these things in the time of Frodo there were still some traces left in local words and names, many of which closely resembled those found in Dale or in Rohan. Most notable were the names of days, months, and seasons; several other words of the same sort (such as mathom and smial) were also still in common use, while more were preserved in the place-names of Bree and the Shire. The personal names of the Hobbits were also peculiar and many had come down from ancient days.
Hobbit was the name usually applied by the Shire-folk to all their kind. Men called them Halflings and the Elves Periannath. The origin of the word hobbit was by most forgotten. It seems, however, to have been at first a name given to the Harfoots by the Fallohides and Stoors, and to be a worn-down form of a word preserved more fully in Rohan: holbytla 'hole-builder'.
LO-AF-62c{OF OTHER RACES}
{Ents. }The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age …
Avari between LO-07 and LO-08: I think this diacritical sign is in the original text, and if so it shlould be kept.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:37 PM   #11
ArcusCalion
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LO-29: I see your point, so I will take 'together with'.

LO-40: Very well, 'House' works better, we can use it.

LO-54: Apologies, I misread the intentions. We can leave it as Uldor.

LO-AF-58.5/60.5/60.6: Agreed, this helps here greatly. Some minor repetition like this is always allowed, I think.

LO-AF-62c: Yes indeed, thank you for posting the relevant edits and markers.

Avari: It is indeed in the original text which is why I included it. It should be kept.
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Old 03-07-2019, 06:07 PM   #12
gandalf85
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LO-AF-58.5, LO-AF-60.5 and LO-AF-60.6: I agree to these changes.

Avari: Ahh, I missed that it was in the original text. Yes, we should keep it.
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