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Old 05-23-2003, 09:00 PM   #1
GandalftheWhite
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Question Gondor's Kings

I'm just a bit confused.
See,Gondor was a city established by Elendil and his people.So it is understood that he, and his heirs are the rightful Kings of Gondor.But then we know that Isildur and his sons perished at the Battle of Gladden Fields.

Also, Faramir tells Frodo that Earndur was the last King of Gondor; who after dying at the feud with the Witch of Angmar, left no heir for Gondor.So began the administration of the Stewwards of Gondor.

Now my question is, were Earndur and Isildur Elendil of the same line?It is not mentioned anywhere.
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:12 PM   #2
Sophia the Thunder Mistress
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Welcome to the Downs, GandalftheWhite! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lets see if I can help clear it up a bit for you.
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I'm just a bit confused.
See,Gondor was a city established by Elendil and his people.
First off, Gondor was a Kingdom with many cities in it. Chief of these were Minas Ithil (which became Minas Morgul), Minas Anor (Which became Minas Tirith) and Osgiliath. Gondor was the Kingdom in the South, but there was also another kingdom, Arnor, in the North.

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So it is understood that he, and his heirs are the rightful Kings of Gondor.But then we know that Isildur and his sons perished at the Battle of Gladden Fields.
Actually, Elendil was the first king of both Gondor and Arnor. He was slain fighting Sauron at the Last Alliance in the Second Age. His son Isildur inherited the Kingship of Arnor, while his other son Anarion inherited the kingship of Gondor.

Isildur did die at the Gladden Fields, and all his children died sometime in that time period except the youngest, Valandil. Valandil became King of Arnor.

Anarion also died in the same war. His descendents were the Kings of Gondor.

Quote:
Also, Faramir tells Frodo that Earndur was the last King of Gondor; who after dying at the feud with the Witch of Angmar, left no heir for Gondor.So began the administration of the Stewwards of Gondor.
The last King of Gondor was named Earnur. He vanished attempting to go into Minas Morgul and was never seen again.

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Now my question is, were Earndur and Isildur Elendil of the same line?It is not mentioned anywhere.
Earnur was a descendant of Anarion, Isildur's brother, so yes the two were distantly related. Elendil was the father of both Isildur and Anarion, so Earnur would be from the line of Elendil.

Does this clear anything up?
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:23 PM   #3
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So where exactly is Arnor?Is it a part of Middle-Earth or not?It isn't shown in the maps behind the LOTR book.Is Arnor and Anorien the same place?
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:52 PM   #4
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Arnor had been destroyed by the time LOTR takes place. The capitol was Annuminas by Lake Evendim which is on the map, and the Kingdom of Arnor covered most of the area that's marked on the map as Eriador. Even the Shire was once in Arnor as well. Here are some links to information about Arnor and Gondor:
Arnor

Gondor

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]
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Old 05-24-2003, 04:13 AM   #5
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Have fun being dead, Gandalfthewhite.

Have you read LotR already? If so, have you read the appendixes, which are found at the end of the book? They should clear out many questions like this. Pretty much is also told about NŁmenor, Gondor and Arnor, and Elendil, Isildur and Anarion, so you should be able to find answer to your questions there.

If Arnor's location isn't stated there, then it's, as the Thunder Mistress said, it covered most parts of Eriador. After Earendur(correct me if it was not Earendur) Arnor was divided between his sons. It was divided to three kingdoms, Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur, which are shown on the map. The kingdoms were ruined later though.

(Off-topic, but was the Shire in Arnor? Wasn't Arnor already divided when the hobbits settled in the Shire? It was in Arthedain, wasn't it? Or do I remember wrong?)

Hmm, I wasn't planning to write this much, but at least this should give you an idea of where Arnor was, even though it was already answered :P
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Old 05-24-2003, 04:45 AM   #6
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Yes, the Shire was part of Arthedain. king Argeleb II gave the hobbits permission to live there in the year 1600. But Arthedain ceased to exist in 1975 and then the Shire became "independent".
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Old 05-24-2003, 09:00 AM   #7
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Actually the right of the Line of Anarion to the throne of Gondor was questionable. What happened was this:

Elendil, the High King, reigned in Arnor. His sons Isildur and Anarion were co-rulers of Gondor in the south.

Both Elendil and Anarion were killed in the War of the Last Alliance making Isildur both High King and sole King of Gondor. *But* he chose to install Anarion's son Meneldil as king of Gondor before he headed up North to Arnor.

Meneldil's position was exactly the same as that of his father and Isildur during the lifetime of Elendil, that is he was an under-king or vice-regent appointed by the High King (Isildur) and subject to him.

However as we know Isildur and his three adult sons were killed at the Gladden fields. Isildur's youngest son, who was still a minor, then succeeded as High King of Arnor and Gondor.

*BUT* Meneldil refused to accept him as overlord claiming that Isildur had 'surrendered' the throne of Gondor to him and his descendants, meaning Gondor was now an independent Kingdom owing no allegiance to the High King.

As no charter or other official record of this 'surrender' exists it is safe to say Meneldil was lying through his teeth and guilty of oathbreaking and rebellion.

Valandil and his successors undoubtedly knew this but had scruples against starting a civil war against their own kin, not to mention the fact that both Realms in Exile were recovering from the losses of the war against Sauron.

The strong resistance to accepting the Heirs of Isildur as king, even after the failure of the Line of Anarion, was undoubtedly rooted in this history. The Council of Gondor weren't about to admit that their proud kingdom was and always had been lawfully subject to the High Kings of Arnor.

[ May 24, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]
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Old 05-24-2003, 09:13 AM   #8
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Arnor is on the LotR maps. On the Eriador map (the first quarter) it's written in unfilled letters in an arc: "The Lost Realm of Arnor".
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Old 05-24-2003, 04:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
(Off-topic, but was the Shire in Arnor? Wasn't Arnor already divided when the hobbits settled in the Shire? It was in Arthedain, wasn't it? Or do I remember wrong?)
Yes, what I meant was that the part of Eriador in which the Shire was located was part of Arnor. It wasn't the Shire yet, as the hobbits didn't live there, but all that land was included in the Realm of Arnor.

Quote:
Arnor is on the LotR maps. On the Eriador map (the first quarter) it's written in unfilled letters in an arc: "The Lost Realm of Arnor".
It can be rather hard to see though, if you don't know where to look for it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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Old 05-26-2003, 04:13 PM   #10
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It certainly seems that those Lords of Gondor loved lying through their teeth. I'm wondering, was it Arvedui of Arnor who claimed the throne, basing his claim on his marriage to Firiel, Princess of Gondor? I'm sure that the same Laws of Succession in Numenor should have applied to the realms of Arnor and Gondor.
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Old 05-26-2003, 06:54 PM   #11
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Arvedui put in a claim for himself on the grounds that the Heirs of Isildur were by right overlords of Gondor, (which went over like a lead balloon in Minas Tirith) but also put forward his wife's claim as the only surviving child of Ondoher. By all logic she, or at least her sons, should have been next in line. But the Council of Gondor chose to go chasing after a third cousin of the late King instead.

BTW, a few generations later the Gondorim passed a law allowing the Stewardship to pass through the female line, can you say hypocrites? I mean that alone makes it very clear the denial of Firiel's rights had little to do with law and *nothing* to do with principle!
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Old 05-28-2003, 07:23 AM   #12
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Well, I'm still a bit confused.If Anarion was ruler of Gondor and Isildur of Arnor, and Aragorn is Isildur's Heir and not Anarion's, shouldn't Aragorn be King only of Arnor(though it doesn't exist) and Gondor still be ruled by the Stewards.Or is it, because Aragorn is the only living Heir of either of the Houses-that is House if Isildur and House of Anarion, so he gets to be King of both the North and the South.Please tell me, as I'm really confused.

Also, Aragorn is of the line of the Chieftains
of the Dunedain, and not of the Kings, so how is he a King?
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Old 05-28-2003, 07:44 AM   #13
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Elendil was the High King of both Arnor and Gondor. Elendil ruled Arnor alone, while his sons Isildur and Anarion ruled Gondor as, Elendil's appanages.

After Elendil fell Isildur named Meneldil, Anarion's son, as his appanage, but he himself was the High King and ruler of Arnor. And as Morwen said, Meneldil didn't accept the rulership of Valandil after Isildur's death.

Arnor broke, but the kings of Arthedain were the heirs of Isildur. After Arthedain's fall, this line was known as the Chieftain's of the dunedain. Aragorn therefore descended from Isildur and his father Elendil, who was the High King, and even though Meneldil had refused Valandil's rulership, Aragorn was legally the king of both Arnor and Gondor, being the High King.

At least I think so :P Hope you understand, wrote this in a hurry

EDIT: (Thank's, Kuruharan)

[ May 28, 2003: Message edited by: Afrodal Fenyar ]
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Old 05-28-2003, 10:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Elendil was the High King of both Arnor and Gondor. Elendil ruled Arnor alone, while his sons Isildur and Anarion ruled Gondor as, well, can't find a proper term now, so let's say, as Elendil's under-kings, as Morwen said.
"Appanage" may be the word you were looking for.

At that time it was sort of an appanage system.
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