The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2020, 01:06 PM   #1
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 2,282
Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe The Silmarillion in the Vernacular

I have accidentally committed myself to retelling the Silmarillion in the vernacular to my children, aged 7 and 9.

This began because I foolishly attempted to explain why feeling guilty means you need to stop doing something rather than getting angry and continuing, by using the phrase 'let me tell you a story'. I then racked my brains for a suitable story... and, as he often does, Feanor leapt to mind.

It's been... an experience. I never knew I could chop so much out of the Silm and still convey the essential story. I'm telling it entirely off the cuff, chopping it into 15 minute chunks, and trying to work in enough hooks to get them to ask for more (which is working!), so it's... well:

Part 1 was the story of Feanor, from making the Silmarils to his death; 'Feanor' and 'Melkor' were the only two names I used, and I didn't actually mention the Trees dying. I ended by summing up the fate of Maedhros and Maglor (not named), and attributing it all to their dad not dealing well with guilt. ^_^

Part 2 was inspired by the question 'Who was king after Feanor died?'. So we backtracked to the Trees dying, then did Fingolfin and the Grinding Ice, and then struggled through Maedhros' captivity and Fingon's rescue. Again, those were all the names I worked in. This was the one where my son said 'A lot of these names start with F, don't they?' Yep, kid, they do that.

Part 3 began with me asking 'If you were trying to protect your city from Melkor, how would you do it?', and they answered beautifully. First we had 'a Melkor-proof shield', so I explained Doriath (no name, though I did have to name Melian). Then 'hide it', so we did Nargothrond and Gondolin, and a little bit of Finrod propoganda (he got a name; Turgon didn't, and neither city did). Then 'train my soldiers to fight really well', so we did Himring and Mithrim. Finally I fed them 'just live a long way away', allowing me to introduce Cirdan and the Havens. I threw in the Dagor Aglareb and Glaurung's little outing, to provide a bit of upcoming threat, and then pointed out that we'd mentioned Elves and Dwarves (and Goblins - yes, I know - and Gods - I know), but we hadn't yet talked about humans... but that they were, literally, on their way.

("Well, not literally," I get from the back of the car. "Literally in the story, maybe.")

So next time I get to do The Coming of Men, which should lead us nicely to the Bragollach, and then into Beren and Luthien. What I'm going to do about Turin when he shows up, I have no idea - but I will have to, because I've already introduced the idea that all these cities are going to fall in the end.

Has anyone else ever had to/wound up doing something like this? And/or, any suggestions for how I should proceed?

hS
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 06:55 PM   #2
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,388
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
With my son and daughter (the son is 7 years older), I started with The Hobbit at about age 5, and then the Lord of the Rings at about 7-8. I never even considered reading The Silmarillion to them, to be honest.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 07:14 PM   #3
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,663
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Your story just made my day! That is so adorable.

A simplified and slightly altered Turin story can be an excellent way of explaining why feeling guilty should make you stop and not just get angry and continue. You don't even need to mention the rest of his family, the story works even if he's the only one there.
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV
Galadriel55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2020, 05:38 PM   #4
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,884
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Not personally but it reminds me of what Dorothy L Sayers said about dramatising the Bible for the radio in the early forties with potential child audience that she couldn’t be too explicit about Mary Magdalene but just had to give the impression she lived a fast lif3 and probably drank to many cocktails!
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 06:05 AM   #5
Pervinca Took
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 4,112
Pervinca Took is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
That is one of the best opening posts I have ever read, Huinesoron. And I can well remember the wilful days of childhood, feeling a bad feeling but getting angry and continuing instead of being sorry.

How enlightened (I mean it - I was pretty gobsmacked by this!) to respond that they would defend their city beautifully! And what flawless logic in all the subsequent methods suggested.

You really should write these stories/retellings up. It reminds me of what Rosemary Sutcliff did for 'Beowulf,' but sounds a lot more exciting - and I think the 'moral' messages would be more complex, too - although I guess in the 'reduction' they might possibly end up a little too close to allegory.

Whether or no, what a great thing to do. Lucky kids and lucky father, I say.

Uton herian Huinesoronings!
__________________
"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always."

Last edited by Pervinca Took; 02-16-2020 at 01:27 PM.
Pervinca Took is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2020, 11:08 PM   #6
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,663
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
I am curious, Huey - did you ever get to finish the story?
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV
Galadriel55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2020, 02:35 AM   #7
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 2,282
Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I am curious, Huey - did you ever get to finish the story?
Oh, we're still going! The cry of 'can we do Elves?' rings out virtually every drive home from school. I decided that the Great Tales needed to be told in full, so we're deep in Beren and Luthien right now. They're actually able to remember what's going on from telling to telling, which is a huge plus, and my daughter wants to turn it into a play. (Technically she wants me to turn it into a play...) Right now Beren's run off to get himself killed, which... I guess doesn't narrow it down much! We just had the big reveal that Huan can talk, and they were both very concerned over the prophecies about him.

It's fun. It's lots of fun, and I hope it stays fun when I have to do Turin. (We need to do Tuurin, because we have to destroy Nargothrond and Doriath.)

hS
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2020, 10:07 AM   #8
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,663
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
You won't believe how happy it makes me to imagine you storytelling The Sil to little Huinesoronings. Turin will work out. It's sad, but it's ambiguous. And your kids seem like a really mature pair who can handle the good vs bad ambiguity.
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV
Galadriel55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2020, 10:32 AM   #9
Urwen
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Urwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Meneltarma
Posts: 4,181
Urwen has just left Hobbiton.
And what of Gondolin? Will you tell them 'bout that one naughty Elf?
__________________
Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench.

I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.
Urwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2020, 03:36 PM   #10
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 2,282
Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
You won't believe how happy it makes me to imagine you storytelling The Sil to little Huinesoronings. Turin will work out. It's sad, but it's ambiguous. And your kids seem like a really mature pair who can handle the good vs bad ambiguity.
I agree that they'll love it. I'm not sure /I/ can cope with that much Turinning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
And what of Gondolin? Will you tell them 'bout that one naughty Elf?
Of course! Every story needs a villain!



I'm still deciding whether to cover Maeglin's back story at all. It's an entire story completely out of sequence. Maybe if I merge it with Hurin and Huor's visit somehow? But on the other hand, maybe Aredhel needs some screen time...

hS
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2020, 04:56 PM   #11
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,663
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I agree that they'll love it. I'm not sure /I/ can cope with that much Turinning.
I have faith in you. You can do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey
I'm still deciding whether to cover Maeglin's back story at all. It's an entire story completely out of sequence. Maybe if I merge it with Hurin and Huor's visit somehow? But on the other hand, maybe Aredhel needs some screen time...
You could do a "let me tell you a bit about Gondolin" backstory. It doesn't even matter when you tell it, cause it's disentangled from the other Silm stories. Aredhel just does her thing sometime before H&H arrive.
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV
Galadriel55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 01:58 AM   #12
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,724
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
They're actually able to remember what's going on from telling to telling, which is a huge plus...
That's quite a feat!

Quote:
...and my daughter wants to turn it into a play. (Technically she wants me to turn it into a play...)
Now I would love to see this.

So did the story progress any further while the world is on lockdown?
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 05:20 AM   #13
Rune Son of Bjarne
Odinic Wanderer
 
Rune Son of Bjarne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Under the Raven banner, between tall Odin and white Christ!
Posts: 3,976
Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via AIM to Rune Son of Bjarne Send a message via MSN to Rune Son of Bjarne
Nice thread.

At what age did you guys start introducing them them to Tolkien's Legendarium?
Did you start with the Hobbit (which is my least favorite) or did you jump straight into the fun stuff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Your story just made my day! That is so adorable.

A simplified and slightly altered Turin story can be an excellent way of explaining why feeling guilty should make you stop and not just get angry and continue. You don't even need to mention the rest of his family, the story works even if he's the only one there.
Well, there certainly is plenty of version of that story out there, I doubt you need to do much inventing your self.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith View Post
Rune is my brother from another mother.

Rune Son of Bjarne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 06:18 AM   #14
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,577
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
I did something similar on a simpler level - I started telling my granddaughters the Hobbit episodes when they were about four years old, too young to comprehend the lengthy written book. They loved it, and now they have heard the book (German translation - they haven't learned English in school yet) from me and the radio play (again, German version) on CD.

I've told them some of the events of LotR and bits of Sil, but we have entered the realm of fan fiction. When they stay with me, they demand Bilbo stories of the Hobbit's life as a child. One of the girls suggested I write those down and publish them, but of course copyright laws would prohibit that - and the fact that the Shire looks and feels an awful lot like their own modern life!
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 06:50 AM   #15
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,261
Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.Thinlómien has passed beneath the Argonath.
This is pretty amazing, and I daresay it requires quite a good memory and storytelling skills from you, Huine. I'm really curious what your kids will think of the Silm when they are old enough to read it themselves.

That being said, I had rather the deep end experience with Silm as a kid and it worked too. My father (alias Nogrod) read all the major Tolkien works aloud to me and my little sister (alias A Little Green) and I don't think he ever censored a bit, and I loved it that way (and I don't think it was bad influence in any way unless you count him raising a kid who has been even more Tolkien obsessed than him ).

I don't quite recall how old we were when this all happened though. I don't remember much of The Hobbit, so we must have been very little, but I have many vivid memories of the LotR readthrough (including a story I have told here many times about how I got super mad about my dad closing the book in the middle of The Voice of Saruman and threatening to read the rest of the chapter myself if he doesn't finish ). But I think I was about 6-7 when he read LotR to us which was pretty much the perfect age, while Greenie at 5ish was perhaps a little too young (I also love recounting the story about how she found Cirith Ungol so scary she didn't want to hear more, not much before Frodo and Sam have the same exact conversation).

But we went from LotR, probably not immediately, but anyway to Silmarillion and even (parts of?) The Unfinished Tales. I very much doubt I would have such good grasp of the myriad Silm characters, places and family trees if I hadn't absorbed them back then with the wonderful memory children have. I don't think I ever found The Silmarillion too scary - or too confusing or boring or whatever - it was just a story. Children are pretty amazing, I don't think you need to shelter them too much.

Also to be fair I think The Lord of the Rings is, in some ways, a lot more mature work than The Silmarillion. Sure, Silm has suicide and incest and genocide and no happy ending, but it is mostly told from a rather detached perspective. It is, in a sense, very close to whether you would expose your children to any traditional mythology at a young age.

While LotR? Is actually super creepy and emotionally affecting at times. The descriptions can be very vivid and you get attached to the characters much easier, and therefore you as a reader are probably much more worried about Frodo's fate than you ever were for say Túrin's. If you're listening to the story as a child who doesn't know what's going on, there is a lot of scary. The Black Riders are scary (Merry as a potential Black Rider is scary too), the Old Forest is scary, the Barrow-Downs are scary, the Black Riders are scary again, Moria is scary, the breaking of the Fellowship is scary (or at least bewildering because it breaks the basic heroic narrative children are used to), basically all the wars are very suspenseful, the Dead Marshes are scary, Cirith Ungol is scary, Mordor is scary, the Scouring of the Shire is again bewildering... I don't think The Silmarillion is half as emotionally unsettling for kids simply for the more detached tone and less atmospheric descriptions.

So, from my personal experience, you shouldn't be too worried about the upsetting elements in Tolkien' works, children can take it. But like I said, I love how you've put such a personal spin on The Silmarillion and basically made your family's own branch of The Legendarium. I can't help thinking The Professor would greatly approve.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 09:08 AM   #16
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 2,282
Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhunardawen View Post
So did the story progress any further while the world is on lockdown?
Alas, it has not. I find it hard to be appropriately off-the-cuff when I'm not driving at the same time, so "Elves" (as in, "Can we do Elves?") is on hold while we're stuck at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
You could do a "let me tell you a bit about Gondolin" backstory. It doesn't even matter when you tell it, cause it's disentangled from the other Silm stories. Aredhel just does her thing sometime before H&H arrive.
This is the plan, now that you suggested it. We'll do Princess Aredhel and the Spooky Man, lead into Grubby Mortals Wind Up In Gondolin, then jump over to The Long Grim Tale of Turin and Tuor, Or, Grubby Mortals In Gondolin 2.0. Y'know... someday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
At what age did you guys start introducing them them to Tolkien's Legendarium?
Did you start with the Hobbit (which is my least favorite) or did you jump straight into the fun stuff?
I tried reading The Hobbit in a different car setting (waiting to pick up my wife after work). We got... nearly to Gollum, I think? It wasn't a great hit, which is a shame. That would have been, oh, a year and a bit ago? So they were 8 and 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
I've told them some of the events of LotR and bits of Sil, but we have entered the realm of fan fiction. When they stay with me, they demand Bilbo stories of the Hobbit's life as a child. One of the girls suggested I write those down and publish them, but of course copyright laws would prohibit that - and the fact that the Shire looks and feels an awful lot like their own modern life!
Excellent! This sounds like the sort of thing that would happen in the Shire itself - tales of Mad Baggins and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
This is pretty amazing, and I daresay it requires quite a good memory and storytelling skills from you, Huine. I'm really curious what your kids will think of the Silm when they are old enough to read it themselves.
So am I. I know I had repeatedly read LotR by the time I was 12 or so (that would be 1998), but I think I didn't lay hands on the Silm until after the movies came out. In fact, my personal copy of LotR (as opposed to either of my parents') and my original Silm were under matching covers, so I must have gotten them fairly close together.

Listening to your story, I'm wondering whether my children would be up for LotR now (or at least, once we've finished our current storybook). I shall have to ponder the point. Original Silm, I'm afraid, they'd probably find rather dull; I read them Rosemary Sutcliff's Arthurian retelling and had to liven the language up in that, let alone Silm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
But like I said, I love how you've put such a personal spin on The Silmarillion and basically made your family's own branch of The Legendarium. I can't help thinking The Professor would greatly approve.
It's been fun! I've heard them playing at Luthien a time or two, too... I occasionally think of the way Tolkien started hearing back versions of Errantry that had been orally transmitted through multiple iterations, and the only word that was universally unchanged was "sigaldry".

hS
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 09:36 AM   #17
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,663
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Yesterday I unexpectedly found myself in a similar boat. My dad, at some point which I have not witnessed, told my kid brother to ask me about hobbits. And I had the question sprung on me at a point most unexpected. Seeing as the kid has only recently graduated from the Three Pigs And The Wolf story level, and whose ideal story has no bad guys, I wasn't even considering introducing him to Tolkien yet. But he asked, so I told him about hobbits, and Dwarves, and a bit about Elves. And then he asked "When are you going to get to the actual interesting part?", so I took that as the cue to launch into a modified retelling of The Hobbit.

So far I told the story up to the Trolls. He was absolutely dazed by the amount of new creatures introduced into his lexicon (he hasn't met many fictional creatures yet due to not being very far in his reading schedule), and he was really scared that the Trolls were gonna eat the company. His favourite part was when the Dwarves showed up in a ridiculous fashion at Bilbo's door. He found it funny, and I had him guess how many Dwarves were standing at the door each time. I don't remember TH that well, but at least I can recite all of Thorin's companions without fail! He was also very upset that Bilbo would do such a bad thing as leave his home without a handkerchief. Burrahobbit, and the whole burglar business, had to be left out, because it doesn't translate well but mainly because I did not feel myself capable to handle the questions that would be met with. Ethics are an issue I did not want to get myself into.

Because I don't remember TH well at all, I did a quick skim of the next few chapters so that I would be able to do Rivendell and the Goblins next. I didn't even remember how the Dwarves got captured by Goblins, and had to look that up. But I think I'll call them Orcs when I get to that part.
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV

Last edited by Galadriel55; 05-19-2020 at 09:50 AM.
Galadriel55 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 11:52 AM   #18
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,133
Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
[OT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Also to be fair I think The Lord of the Rings is, in some ways, a lot more mature work than The Silmarillion. Sure, Silm has suicide and incest and genocide and no happy ending, but it is mostly told from a rather detached perspective. It is, in a sense, very close to whether you would expose your children to any traditional mythology at a young age.

While LotR? Is actually super creepy and emotionally affecting at times. The descriptions can be very vivid and you get attached to the characters much easier, and therefore you as a reader are probably much more worried about Frodo's fate than you ever were for say Túrin's.
Yep, LotR was a huge step forward in Tolkien's development as a writer, and I think he knew it - hence the reworking of the Great Tales in a more detailed, vivid, LotR-ish style that brought us the prose Narn, Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin etc. Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]

As to the topic proper, I fear I have little to contribute, having neither children nor underage siblings, and I'm not sure the cats and dogs would appreciate being told about Huan and Tevildo, so... as you were.
__________________
The 21st century is when everything changes, you've got to be ready.

Last edited by Pitchwife; 05-20-2020 at 08:30 AM.
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2020, 07:59 AM   #19
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,894
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
It's worth pointing out that even in the QS proper, and the Annals, the post-LR material tends toward a closer focus with more dialogue and psychology, as in the Finwe/Miriel story; or in the Silmarillion's "short Turin" which largely came from the Grey Annals.
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 04:11 PM   #20
Rune Son of Bjarne
Odinic Wanderer
 
Rune Son of Bjarne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Under the Raven banner, between tall Odin and white Christ!
Posts: 3,976
Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Rune Son of Bjarne is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via AIM to Rune Son of Bjarne Send a message via MSN to Rune Son of Bjarne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
I very much doubt I would have such good grasp of the myriad Silm characters, places and family trees if I hadn't absorbed them back then with the wonderful memory children have. .
When I first read the Silmarillion I tended to skim a lot of the early chapters, and to this day I have a hard time remembering the different valar etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
[OT]

Yep, LotR was a huge step forward in Tolkien's development as a writer, and I think he knew it - hence the reworking of the Great Tales in a more detailed, vivid, LotR-ish style that brought us the prose Narn, Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin etc. Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]
Bible?
I always saw it as a history text book in style. You know, first semester of your undergrad you have to pick up "A brief history of middle-earth". Just to set the stage for later studies.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith View Post
Rune is my brother from another mother.

Rune Son of Bjarne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 05:25 PM   #21
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,814
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]
Ah, but I love the way The Silmarillion reads! Old-fashioned language has always been an interest of mine (probably explains too why my Bible is the KJV).
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 11:20 PM   #22
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,724
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
[OT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Ah, but I love the way The Silmarillion reads! Old-fashioned language has always been an interest of mine (probably explains too why my Bible is the KJV).
I was in high school when I read it the first time so no, not really a child, but so do I!

I'm curious though, Zil, if you've ever read The Message version and what you think of it.
[/OT]

Unlike Rune, the Valaquenta and knowing the Valar's distinctive characteristics was exciting to me, it probably seemed a bit like animal taxonomy to me at the time. And it was fun seeing all the genealogies. I think I might have even read through the entire index of names at one point, just because.

Which brings me to this question: Hui, do you think your kids would be too overwhelmed with the idea that there are beings in "Elves" who can control different elements (so to speak), if they ever become directly relevant to your retelling of the story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
Because I don't remember TH well at all
At that rate? You have quite a memory! (Obligatory - or maybe not - admission: I don't remember TH at all.)
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 04:41 AM   #23
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,814
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhunardawen View Post
I'm curious though, Zil, if you've ever read The Message version and what you think of it.
I have to say I'm unfamiliar with it.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2020, 11:35 PM   #24
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,133
Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Pitchwife is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhunardawen View Post
I think I might have even read through the entire index of names at one point, just because.
Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.
__________________
The 21st century is when everything changes, you've got to be ready.
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 03:47 AM   #25
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,420
Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.Legate of Amon Lanc is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.
Is this the moment when I'm allowed to say that I have read the LotR names index before I read the actual story? (And the point was exactly to marvel at the amount of amazing names and locations that all sounded so exciting even though I had no idea what they were, with an occasional translation of the name on the side.)

In the same vein, looking at maps was a necessary part of the reading (call it multimedial experience), and I may not have read the Elvish languages "dictionary" the most often, but before the first time I finished the Sil - and possibly even LotR - I had read it several times and knew most of the basic words. I was about eight-ish around that time.

Depending how much "linguistic" your kids are, Hui, you might find them devouring the dictionary if you actually let them loose on it, and it might add an extra dimension to the whole "people whose names start with F-" issue. I don't know how much such an experience can be generalised, but it seems to me that there is a certain fascination with strange names among many children, which manifests equally in areas like Tolkien or for example kids learning names of dinosaurs very easily, and being actually super interested in learning them. It may be that it is not as common as I perceive it to be, or that your kids may not be interested in that, but an eight-year-old me would have been perfectly happy to be entertained for several hours with a map and a dictionary even without the story.

In any case, it is a splendid testimony and I can only say that this sounds like parenting done right. And I join those who marvel at you being able to remember all the facts correctly, or more like, feeling confident enough to tell that. I used to, but I would be very hesitant and afraid that I would mix up some of the F- people. But I am also much more confident in The Hobbit and LotR - or, say, the Ainulindalë, but not the "middle part" of Sil. Perhaps it is because I was never so much into the cloak-and-dagger family-dramas which form the bulk of it. I liked the "myths" about how the first Elves or first Men came here or there or about the Trees or Sun and Moon, but found the repeated unsuccesful ventures against Morgoth and recurring personal tragedies of individuals pretty dull and waited for something interesting to happen. But if you used Fëanor to illustrate the destructive potential of anger, then, well... that's some use of the story, hats off.

But I wanted to say: I commend you for remembering all this, but I am absolutely not surprised at your kids keeping track of it, and I would absolutely not fear them not being able to remember the names. Because that's what kids do. I would rather fear, if this keeps up, that in a couple of years, you might need to revise who was who or what was the difference between Brithombar and Eglarest, because they will know, and you might not.
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:04 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.