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Old 11-07-2003, 04:22 PM   #1
HCIsland
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Sting Saruman/Grima Out???

This is bound to stir up a hornets' nest and personally, I'm not sure I'm reading to buy it but it is a source of concern.<P>This is an e-mail from PJ himself at <A HREF="http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=16462" TARGET=_blank>Ain't It Cool News</A>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Saruman thing you describe is a muddle of half-truths. <P>We have decided to save the Saruman sequence for the DVD. It's a great little scene. 7 mins long. Chris is wonderful, as usual. Brad is in about 6 shots. It was a film maker decision - nothing to do with the studio. <P>The problem is that the sequence was originally shot for The Two Towers, as it is in the book. Since The Two Towers couldn't sustain a 7 min "wrap" after Helm's Deep, we thought it would be a good idea to save it for the beginning of the Return of the King. The trouble is, when we viewed various ROTK cuts over the last few weeks, it feels like the first scenes are wrapping last year's movie, instead of starting the new one. We felt it got ROTK off to an uncertain beginning, since Saruman plays no role in the events of ROTK (we don't have the Scouring later, as the book does), yet we dwell in Isengard for quite a long time before our new story kicks off. <P>We reluctantly made the decision to save this sequence for the DVD. The choice was made on the basis that most people will assume that Saruman was vanquished by the Helm's Deep events, and Ent attack. We can now crack straight into setting up the narrative tension of ROTK, which features Sauron as the villian. <P>It was a very similar situation to last year when we decided to take a nice Boromir/Denethor flashback out of The Two Towers, and put it in the DVD. It was causing us pacing problems in the theatrical version, but with the Extended Cut just coming out now, fans can see this great little scene. Thank God for DVD, since it does mean that a version of the movie, which has different pacing requirements, can be released later. The Saruman sequence will definately be a highlight of the Extended ROTK DVD. <P>We have a lot of great DVD material this time around. As we crafted the movie, we reduced it from an over 4 hour running time, down to 3.12 (without credits - about 8 mins long). This was done by us. There were no studio cutting notes. We now have a movie with a pace that fells ok for it's theatrical release. One more week to go. We are nearly there. Will we still be standing? It's going to be a close run thing. <P>Cheers, <P>Peter J <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The problem is, the argument makes sense. The biggest issue I see has to do with the Palantir, but likely something lame could be invented to get it into Gandalf's hands.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-07-2003, 04:49 PM   #2
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Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The biggest issue I see has to do with the Palantir, but likely something lame could be invented to get it into Gandalf's hands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps Theoden gives it to Gndalf saying Grima left this behind? It is pretty much the same as Grima throwing it outta Orthanc.
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Old 11-07-2003, 05:06 PM   #3
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Sting

Disturbing indeed. I was looking forward to it, though, as you say, the arguments make sense.<P>As for the Palantir, Pippin can no doubt find it among the wreckage to establish its return just as easily as Grima throwing it out the window.<P>It's all a pity, though.
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Old 11-07-2003, 05:10 PM   #4
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Sting

I'm pretty okay with it, exept for two things:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The problem is, the argument makes sense. The biggest issue I see has to do with the Palantir, but likely something lame could be invented to get it into Gandalf's hands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Quite likely, or they'll just have Gandalf magically have the orb, like his loss and regaining of his staff in FotR. <P>The second thing is:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As we crafted the movie, we reduced it from an over 4 hour running time, down to 3.12 (without credits - about 8 mins long). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know it's more likely, but I wanted the extra 31 minutes, not 8. <BR>See you later!<BR>~M
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Old 11-07-2003, 05:53 PM   #5
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Sting

Well, I've come to accept this is legit. As I mentioned before, the reasoning is sound and many of us were guessing that The Voice of Saruman chapter was going to be problematic no matter how it was dealt with.<P>I'm more disappointed about my curiousity not being sated for another year as to how they were going to do this scene as opposed to being bummed about missing a scene I was truly looking forward to.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-07-2003, 06:35 PM   #6
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Sting

Out of curiosity, in the books, Pippin picks up the Palantir just before it rolls into the water. That's how all his trouble started. Hows that dynamic gonna work w/o this scene?
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Old 11-07-2003, 06:43 PM   #7
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Sting

Him finding it in the wreckage is as good an idea as any. Perhaps they filmed a scene where Gandalf picks it up off the ground and placing it in a blanket, a little quick shot with Pippin looking on, intrigued. This leads to him looking at it at night. <P>I wonder as well how they'd handle it. Maybe they'll put an even shorter version (less than 7min) it back in at the last minute, before the prints go out, finding it adding a sense of closure for Sauruman, albeit brief. We could come in mid-speech with Gandalf...:<P>Wide shot of Orthanc with dialogue over it, cut to Gandalf at the stairs, Sauruman rambling, the palantir on the ground. Then Grima rushes forward and pitches his master over the edge in a mad frenzy, being downed himself by an archer. The old man dies of the fall, gets impaled, blah blah blah, and Pippin picks the palantir off the ground only to have Gandalf take it away. You could do that in three minutes, if you join the scene en medias res.
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Old 11-07-2003, 06:58 PM   #8
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Sting

My bigest pity from this is we will not see Lee's attempt to 'act them all off the stage' with his performance at orthanc. this really could have put him up for a shot at best supporting actor at the oscars, but now, with the most used excuse for these 3 films, it has been removed becuase of 'pacing'. when will jackson realise that pacing is not a great problem in these films? oh, hang on, never, coz he's finished them!
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:07 PM   #9
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Sting

If they cut out the Isengard sequence, how will pippin and merry rejoin everyone else?
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:10 PM   #10
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Sting

Actually, I would consider pacing one of the greatest obstacles PJ had to face. Us Ringnuts would be pleased with just scene after scene out of the book, but everyone else would just be checking their watches and wondering when they can go home.<P>Pacing is important.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:13 PM   #11
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Sting

A brief bit of dialogue ("Ah, Theoden, here are two of my diminuitive charges picked up outside Isengard/sent down by the ents after the sack of Isengard. Care to make a pet of one?) explains it all.
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:04 PM   #12
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Sting

Well, I'm sure that PJ has reasons for doing what he did. I mean, he made sense to me. I can see why he wouldn't want to put much of the Isengard scene at the beginning of RotK because it would make it seem like a continuation of TTT, not a further development of the overall story. It would become a continuation of the second "chapter," and wouldn't let it develop into the third "chapter."
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:21 PM   #13
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I really don't think it's a good idea to leave the audience guessing. Either:<BR>#1-The movie-goers will be wondering where in all this mess Saruman is & what he's up to (I know I would if I hadn't read the books).<BR> -or-<BR>#2-PJ will allude to Saruman's death (likely), which will make people want to see it, & wonder how it happened. I <I>still</I> don't see an un-lame way that PJ can get the Palantir into the hands or Gandalf, Aragorn, <B>Pippin</B>, & co. without it coming out strangly. He can get it done, but I wonder if he will...I just think there was probably an oppurtunity to stick it into RotK, not to early but not to late.
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:25 PM   #14
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This actually quite upsets me.<P>I can understand why they do not want to make too much of Saruman, given that he will not feature much in the final film. But he has been a big part of the first two. Some resolution of his role would, to my mind, have been in order. And Wormtongue, too, although less so. Non-Book viewers will be left wondering what happened to that guy who was the major villain in the last two films.<P>I would have thought that "the Voice of Saruman" could be dealt with fairly briefly at the beginning of the film. And it does leave whatever device they may use for getting the Palantir into Gandalf's (and Pippin's) hands fairly weak (particularly if they are going to work these scenes back into the Extended Version).<P>Saruman is a big part of the trilogy (of films) and he should be given a suitable send-off. I can understand the omission of the Scouring, so this is the first big disappointment of RotK for me. But, I suppose it's best to get the disappointment out of the way before taking my seat in the cinema.
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:31 PM   #15
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But, I suppose it's best to get the disappointment out of the way before taking my seat in the cinema. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's getting excedingly harder to put these 'desappointments' away, though. I can do it, but they'll still re-surface once the movie is under way, I know that for sure .
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:32 PM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps they filmed a scene where Gandalf picks it up off the ground and placing it in a blanket, a little quick shot with Pippin looking on, intrigued. This leads to him looking at it at night. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But that wouldn't be the same. I think Pippin needs to pick it up. That's what got his curiosity going the most. I think they should show him find it and pick it up first, then maybe Gandalf take it away. Especially in the movie, so they could show Pippin feeling drawn to it a bit. And I really wish they would show his death! The audience will want to know exactly what happened. Who wouldn't want to see the villain they've been following for 2 movies die?? How can you not show the villains death?
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Old 11-08-2003, 01:17 AM   #17
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I don't know what to think of this. Part of me thinks it is okay, but the other is quite worried. I am actually worried about what the non-book people are going to think. They did make quite a deal about Saruman for TTT (he is the one and only charater on one of the theatrical posters), so I do think that some people are going to wonder what happened to him. I hope they at least say that he was killed so people don't think that he is just sitting in Orthanc doing nothing.
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Old 11-08-2003, 01:52 AM   #18
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Sting

Ah, think of it this way. <P>Where do we see Saruman last? Amid the wreck of the Ring of Isengard, fearful and frantic. Perhaps we can assume he has been dealt with by the ents and is no more; they seem capable of dispatching him. <P>Or maybe when Pippin picks up the palantir, there will be a group of archers at the stairs, a slumped Grima over the railing of the balcony and Saruman lying broken and dead on the steps/wheel/machinery. <P>I really think there will be a small reference where Jackson will leave the audience, trusting them in this, to assume Saruman has died or been otherwise handled. Given the end of TTT, this is a reasonable assumption.
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Old 11-08-2003, 10:02 AM   #19
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Sting

Just on the whole confusing the audience thing, on another board where a number of the posters haven't read the books, we are getting threads like: what's this deal with Saruman being cut? I thought he was dead. I really don't think this will cause confusion for the non-book audience.<P>As for the scene being cut, I have mixed feelings. Like everyone, I was really looking forward to Christopher Lee doing the Voice of Saruman. This was the time for the audience to really see the workings of this guys mind. At the same time I knew they would be rushed with this. Then I'm hearing rumours of Legolas shooting an arrow past a laughing Wormtongue, the arrow arching in the air and coming down through the back of Wormy's skull. This didn't exactly fill me with anticipation.<P>I know multiple deaths were shot for these characters (likely in anticipation of the problems this scene was going to create). The good side of this is that without the same pacing presures on the DVD, we are far more likely to get a satisfying scene out of this in the end. I would rather wait a year for it to be done right than to see a hack job squeezed into the film just so Jackson feels he's getting that base covered.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-08-2003, 10:09 AM   #20
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***SPOILERS!!!!***<P>But why ride to Isnegard if Saru's not doing anything?<P>MAYBE (this is the only gleam of hope) they meant that they cut out Grima killing Saru.<P>If they cut out Isengard, it's $%&%*(%£&^ed up. Firstly, "***?! Where is Saruman?! THis film is confusing!" THat's one reaction that'll appear, and put a damper on the film. Secondly, how do Merry and Pippin appear?<BR>Thirdly, since the Treegarth of Orthanc won't amke it if this won't, the Ents will also seems to "disappear" in RotK (a distasteful phenomenon which happened to an extent to Sauron and Sarumna (personally) in TTT). Which would seem pathetic to viewers.<BR>Also: how do they know Gondor's in trouble? Ok, so they guess, for instance, that Sauron will attack Godnor. But they don't know. NO reason (speed) to take Paths of Dead, NO tension in Ride of the Rohirrim...not even Aragorn's challenge to Sauron in the plantír which explains his too-hasty attack (they cut loads of stuff like this to dumb the films down, and it suffers noticably for it because it make them seem stupid).<P><BR>This sucks.
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Old 11-08-2003, 11:24 AM   #21
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Sting

No one has said all the Isengard scenes are gone.<P>They still will go to Isengard to check on Saruman and find Merry and Pippin there. What happens next is anyone's guess. It has been suggested that they simply find Saruman's body and the palantir in the rubble and will let the audience make their own conclusions, but obviously this is guess work.<P>Somehow, Merry and Pippin will be reunited with Gandalf, Aragorn and company and the palantir will end up in their hands. That's pretty much fact, so after that point the film can progress as normal.<P>How well this all works really cannot be judged until we've seen the film.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-08-2003, 11:35 AM   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Or maybe when Pippin picks up the palantir, there will be a group of archers at the stairs, a slumped Grima over the railing of the balcony and Saruman lying broken and dead on the steps/wheel/machinery. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or perhaps Grima's killing of Saruman will be implied and Pippin will be scavenging the ruins and find Saruman dead, palantir in hand. He'll remove said palantir and see Grima overhead in Orthanc, looking down at the scene...of course this begs the question of where are the archers...Pippin could be scavenging when they arrive.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>NO reason (speed) to take Paths of Dead, NO tension in Ride of the Rohirrim...not even Aragorn's challenge to Sauron in the plantír which explains his too-hasty attack (they cut loads of stuff like this to dumb the films down, and it suffers noticably for it because it make them seem stupid).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I suppose this tension depends on when and "where" Aragorn looks into the palantir. It appears from some of the preliminary photos, that Pippin steals it at Edoras. Sauron assumes the scene is at Orthanc, due to the palantir's presence, and that perhaps the halfling Ringbearer has been captured. This would speed up Sauron's efforts in itself. Right after that (I hope they don't wait too long!), Aragorn looks into the palantir and Sauron fears the Ring is in his hands and he means to challenge him. Aragorn made himself known to Sauron as Isildur's heir and shows him Anduril, thus validating the claim. This speeds up the need to strike at Gondor, and quickly, before Aragorn can get from "Orthanc" to Minas Tirith with his "army," before the Rohirrim can be mustered to help, etc.! I hope that makes sense. I can see it working, but yes, it will be rushed and a lot left out. Maybe the Paths of the Dead is just the quickest way to raise an army that hasn't been recently decimated (Helm's Deep). I'll judge when I see!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta
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Old 11-08-2003, 02:11 PM   #23
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Right after that (I hope they don't wait too long!), Aragorn looks into the palantir and Sauron fears the Ring is in his hands and he means to challenge him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm 90% sure Aragorn will not be looking into the Palantir until after the Battle of Pelennor Fields. <P>In the films, Aragorn is still not sure he wants to take on the mantle of leadership and I believe that PJ will be using the Paths of the Dead as Aragorns trial and rebirth. It doesn't make sense for Aragorn to challenge Sauron until he is prepared to be King.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-08-2003, 03:16 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Or perhaps Grima's killing of Saruman will be implied <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It will probably be implied, but that doesn't help it a whole lot :/.
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Old 11-08-2003, 03:34 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It doesn't make sense for Aragorn to challenge Sauron until he is prepared to be King.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're right, <B>HC</B>, I had forgotten about the "indecisive Aragorn" of the films. It will be interesting to see how the Paths of the Dead affect him. I wonder if it will be a dramatization of the complete humbling effect that Gimli described after the fact. Again, we'll see!<P>Perhaps, also, since the Aragorn palantir episode is not supposed to happen until after Pelennor Fields (?), the tension is created simply by Mordor being on schedule for an attack on Gondor and Aragorn trying to muster help, the Rohirrim trying to recover and get to the battle and all. I'm not sure I like the sequence of Aragorn's development, but I imagine PJ will make it work logically, at least! Maybe there is some hint of the Ring going to Gondor when the "indecisive Nazgul" that waved 'Hi!' to Frodo in TTT reports back...I must say I'm pretty clueless though! Just enjoy speculating out loud!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta
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Old 11-08-2003, 11:55 PM   #26
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I really don't think this will cause confusion for the non-book audience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Really, HC? Do you not think that people will feel cheated at not seeing the major villain of a large part of the two previous films getting his come-uppance? Whatever might be said in forums, I really think that this will rankle with audiences when they see it played out on the screen.<P>To me, if this is true, it will be Jackson's biggest mistake of the trilogy so far.
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Old 11-09-2003, 01:32 AM   #27
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I don't think the average moviegoer will even know there WAS a Saruman/Grima scene cut out. Probably less than 10% of the viewing audience - I'd wager less than 5% - even read online movie news. <P>They won't know, won't care and will love the movie just fine.
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Old 11-09-2003, 03:18 AM   #28
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Well TheOneRing.net just posted this little thing<BR><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1068347495" TARGET=_blank>TheOneRing.net</A><P>It is from Empire magazine who had a short interview with one of the hobbit extras during reshoots. He talks about how he has played all these different peoples of Middle Earth in the movie, including a hobbit. It then goes on to say that they are interviewing him during lunch and he is about to go back to film a "Shire Party Scene" for the end of the movie.<P>The person who sent this in then goes on to speculate that maybe they are making a last minute change to kill of Saurman in the Shire (like the Scouring) at the party. <P>Now this is all pure speculation, and I doubt that it would be true. But, who knows?
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Old 11-09-2003, 03:44 AM   #29
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NinthValar, they won't know it was cut out, but they'll be wondering what the hell happened to the main bad guy for the past 6 hours, and this will leave a bitter taste in their mouths!
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Old 11-09-2003, 10:01 AM   #30
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Just as a test, my wife went over to a friend's house and asked her, "what happened to Saruman at the end of the last movie?"<P>"Didn't he die?"<P>If they show Saruman's corpse at the foot of Orthanc, especially with the palantir nearby, folks will assume he leeped to his death in despair. I know this is a gross simplification of what is supposed to happen, but I doubt it will cause confusion with anyone who hasn't read the book. 90% of the audience will swallow this and move on.<P>As for the secret party scene, don't you think it's a bit of a stretch that a pick-up shot last July means that Saruman's death will now take place at the Shire? Talk about clutching at straws. <P>Likely the party scene has more to do with showing the detachment of Frodo than with anything else. It actually will form a nice contrast with Bilbo's party at the beginning of Fellowship where Frodo was in the middle of it enjoying himself.<P>Editted to add: The removal of a great scene in order to improve the flow of a film is not that uncommon, it's just most of the time we never hear of it. There is a great discussion with Ron Shelton on the director's commentary on the Bull Durham DVD where he describes what he felt was the best scene in the movie. He said that Susan Sarandon was absolutely brilliant and that it was a real show stopper. He cut it because of the fact that it was so strong that it disrupted the flow of the rest of the film which ultimately wasn't about Sarandon's character but Costner's.<P>The truly sad thing is the scene is gone. Once it hit the cutting room floor it was never to be seen again. I think perhaps we should be thankful for the presence of this extended edition format.<P>A film is not simply a sum of it's parts and often it is made stronger through deletion, even of a strong scene. PJ is the one with the rough cut infront of him, not us. If he feels the film is stronger with the scene out, then I for one am not in a position to doubt that.<P>H.C.<p>[ November 09, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]
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Old 11-09-2003, 10:06 AM   #31
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Yep, Saruman's presence would mean No Parties (Rule 198 of THE RULES.)<P>Oh, here's a petition. Hopefully it might at least wake PJ up. At worst it's not like it harms you to sign it. <A HREF="http://www.petitiononline.com/smanrotk/petition.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.petitiononline.com/smanrotk/petition.html</A>
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Old 11-09-2003, 02:07 PM   #32
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It surprises me that everybody here has taken this seriously.<BR>I mean, this isn't a NewLine endorsed website, it has <i>nothing</i> to do with LotR, and there is absolutely <i>no</i> proof whatsoever that this is a genuine document. In fact, I would say this was most certainly <i>not</i> real. Would Harry Whatchamacallim really use that kind of language? He may do in private conversations, but he wouldn't in something as public as this. Also, this is him <i>showing a private email</i> of Peter Jackson's o the entire world, when new line have been so secretive all this time. The even made tORn remove a picture of the hobbits in armour in what is presumably the Shire, with just grass as a backdrop. They wouldn't give out such an important, revealing letter. Hey, we even had a member who said he was PJ when the downs first started out, it's not that difficult to do a well-written fake. I think that PJ would <i>never</i> cut the Saruman scene out (he went as far as to change it from throat-slitting to machine-impalement, he wouldn't put the final straw on Bill the Pony's back. (hehe)<BR>That's what I think, anyway.
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Old 11-09-2003, 04:52 PM   #33
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I hope it's not true. tghis was one of my favorite scenes from the book and I don't see how it would hurt the flow of the movie at all seven minutes is not that long a time to resolve what happens to the villian of two three hour films! They could even do it in less, as an intro scene, such as they have had in both films before the title comes up (Galadriel's back history and Frodo's flashback in TTT). Those were both a few minutes long, and I think if they opened the movie with Gandalf and Saruaman on the steps already in conversation ...they could end this intro with the death of Sauraman and/or the throwing of the planitir and show a cloesup of the plainitir on the steps with the title "The Return of the King" over it. It would be similar in my mind to the "teasers" they used to have in the James Bond movies ... a well respected cinematic device which would not interfere with the "flow" of the movie at all. it would start the movie with a dramatic moment, rather than another redundant shot of Sam and Frodo trudging along towards Mordor and it would explain to everyone in five minutes or so what really happened at Isengard. And it would put the planitir, which is so important to this episode right up front and focus attention on it. I just don't buy that the flow of this movie would be hurt by wrapping up Sauraman ... especially when the second movie started with a flashback of a scene from the middle of the first, and was filled with unneeded flashbacks to Aragorn and Arwen in the middle of the movie. Please excuse my spelling, I've had five beers tonight, but I think that excluding what was probably one of the MOST filmable scenes in the books is a big mistake and it makes me sad.
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Old 11-09-2003, 05:31 PM   #34
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"It surprises me that everybody here has taken this seriously.<BR>I mean, this isn't a NewLine endorsed website, it has nothing to do with LotR,"<P>Ain't It Cool News is a movie news site, and has tracked LotR since it was announced - Harry and others have even been invited for a few days on set during filming to report some of what they saw.<P>"and there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that this is a genuine document. In fact, I would say this was most certainly not real. Would Harry Whatchamacallim really use that kind of language? He may do in private conversations, but he wouldn't in something as public as this."<P>Actually...he ALWAYS uses that strength of alnguage on the site. <P>"Also, this is him showing a private email of Peter Jackson's o the entire world, when new line have been so secretive all this time. The even made tORn remove a picture of the hobbits in armour in what is presumably the Shire, with just grass as a backdrop. They wouldn't give out such an important, revealing letter. Hey, we even had a member who said he was PJ when the downs first started out, it's not that difficult to do a well-written fake. I think that PJ would never cut the Saruman scene out (he went as far as to change it from throat-slitting to machine-impalement, he wouldn't put the final straw on Bill the Pony's back. (hehe)<BR>That's what I think, anyway."<P>Well, Chris Lee conveyed via his web site a few days before this Saruman thing was revelealed that someone was trying to leak a major point about his character's plot in RotK. Then they did...and now Chris Lee has conveyed via his official site that all mention of him in the credits (hmm...I worte cretins there...subconcious triumphs) has been eliminated.<P>So this is pretty conclusive. :'( "Trust PJ"...like a snake...you can neither leave it behind with the source texts, or take it with you in case it ties you to the cutting room floor. I guess Grima WAS an allogory...albeit a foresighted one...
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Old 11-09-2003, 05:46 PM   #35
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I would like to note, (to add to the jumble of news and theories) that <A HREF="http://imdb.com" TARGET=_blank>Internet Movie Database.com</A>, a respected movie site, shows Saruman the White in the credits, though not Grima.<BR>See for yourself:<P><A HREF="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167260/fullcredits" TARGET=_blank>RotK full credits</A><P>See you later!<BR>~M
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Old 11-09-2003, 05:50 PM   #36
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Internet Movie Database.com, a respected movie site, shows Saruman the White in the credits, though not Grima.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wouldn't take IMDB at their word all the time! They listed Sir Ian McKellen in the role of Dumbledore for Prisoner of Azkaban for several days! I think I'll just wait and see, myself! <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta
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Old 11-10-2003, 11:42 AM   #37
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HCIsland<P>Re <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Pacing is important. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But not if it is to the detriment of the film. As Jonathon32 quoted<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just don't buy that the flow of this movie would be hurt by wrapping up Sauraman ... especially when the second movie started with a flashback of a scene from the middle of the first, and was filled with unneeded flashbacks to Aragorn and Arwen in the middle of the movie.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jackson wasn’t THAT bothered about pacing there, was he? The film just drops DEAD at the aragorn/arwen point and on my DVD now I skip to the next scene (and sometimes skip Elrond / arwen as well). It just bugs me that he uses the pacing excuse EVERY time he takes something out.<P>Finwe<P>Re <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can see why he wouldn't want to put much of the Isengard scene at the beginning of RotK because it would make it seem like a continuation of TTT, not a further development of the overall story. It would become a continuation of the second "chapter," and wouldn't let it develop into the third "chapter." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course, because IT’S NOT MEANT TO BE PART OF ROTK!!!!! It’s because we had a detour to osgilliath and a long helm’s deep scene that this was not added in to TT. No doubt Jackson would have made the same excuse of ‘pacing’ if he COULD have fit it on to the end of TT. Indeed, the title of the 2 Towers movie should have been 1 Tower anyway, as we don’t see Cirith Ungol (again because of the same reasons).<P>The ninth valar<P>Re <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't think the average moviegoer will even know there WAS a Saruman/Grima scene cut out. Probably less than 10% of the viewing audience - I'd wager less than 5% - even read online movie news. They won't know, won't care and will love the movie just fine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, imagine the scene. Darth Vader throws the Emperor into the chasm and then we next cut to luke leaving the death star just before it blows up. We then move to the celebration scene and see Anakin Skywalker smiling at Luke. You think people wouldn’t have minded this? The main ‘baddie’ in a film not having his death scene shown and his fac unmasked? People WILL care, even non readers who we all seem to think are thick and can’t understand the gist of a movie without reading a novel first!<P><BR>I put it to you all that one of the main reasons for it’s removal is that Jackson has been forced to cut to get the film to a workable time (no matter what he says the laws of money come into it – longer film, less number of plays each day at the cinema) by Newline and he needs to cut. I’m in no doubt that the battle for pellenor fields and at the black gate will take up a large amount of film time, as did Helm’s Deep in TT. Why can’t he cut back on this and not Saruman?<P>Sorry for my rant, I needed to get it off my chest. I'm worrying now that, like tt, I will leave the cinema dissapointed for the first viewing, and only learn to love the film after I've stomached the changes.<P>I just don't trust Jackson when he says for the ROTK film he won't change the events in the book much..........<P>ps I love the movies, jackson has done a tremendous job etc etc etc.<p>[ November 10, 2003: Message edited by: Essex ]
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Old 11-10-2003, 01:45 PM   #38
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Essex, why does every cut have to be about shortening the film? Last I heard the film is three hours and twenty minutes long! I think it's obvious that he is given a tremendous amount of latitude when it comes to the length of these movies. You complain about him using the excuse of pacing, but pacing is extremely important, especially in such a long film. Personally, I don't know where the time goes when I sit and watch Rings on the screen.<P>There are natural times for movies to slow down and ramp up. I'm sorry you hate the Arwen scenes so much but they occur in natural places in the film. Dealing with Saruman after the movie has already climaxed is not the natural place.<P>You bring up the example of Darth Vader's death and it is a perfect illustration of when a villian should be killed. PJ could have followed this model. It would have been so easy. As the Ents are bashing Isengard the palantir shakes loose from it's pedestal and rolls across the floor. Saruman chases it but can't get there in time. The stone goes over the edge, Saruman reaches, loses his balance, and plundges to his death.<P>There, solved. The fact is Jackson didn't do this because he has respect for this character and tried to give him an end that reflects the spirit of what was in the book. The problem is, in the end, he obviously felt it wasn't working. Now which would you rather have? The lame-*** easy solution (and trust me, there is many a director that would have done something similar to that) or the scene Jackson intended, albeit we have to wait for it.<P>Actually, watching Mr. Lee's Saruman on screen, I suspect it is the very strength of the scene that is the problem. It is likely powerful and memorable but the problem is it doesn't lead anywhere and in the end only serves to distract the non-initiated viewer away from the story in King.<P>There are no indications that this cut was made for any other reason than to stregthen the film. I know we would love nothing better than to see nothing but a parade of scenes representing what was presented in the text, like a glorified illustrated version of the book, but Jackson is trying to make a movie here. A movie that stands up on it's own for both fans and non-fans of the book and personally, I think he's done a damn good job of it.<P>H.C.
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Old 11-11-2003, 07:34 AM   #39
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is likely powerful and memorable but the problem is it doesn't lead anywhere <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes it does lead somewhere. It gives us a reason to show 1/ Gandalf is in charge now 2/ pippin is tempted by the palantir<P>now we won't see Gandalf's change in power and we will have a lame**** reason for Pippin picking up the palantir. 'ooh, look what I'VE found.' This is a key part of the plot and will have to be fiddled with, especially as jackson tells us it's in the ee.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and in the end only serves to distract the non-initiated viewer away from the story in King.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why do we always diss the movie going public whop haven't read the book? Why do we always think they are stupid. purleasse, give them SOME modicum of intelligence. I told my wife (who hasn't read the books) that saruman wouldn't be in it, and she was pretty miffed that he wasn't.<P>Again, one of my main moans is that christopher lee won't have a shot at a best supporting actor.....
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Old 11-11-2003, 11:32 AM   #40
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Ditto. My sister and best friend, who haven;t read the books, think this is stupid...they want to know what happens to Saruman.<P>My sis in fact said that they might as well cut out the Ring or Frodo. Frankly, she's right.
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