The Taming of Faramir

[Kalimac]

First of all - mods, I hope this is OK! I thought this could be a thread to discuss the changes to Faramir in the EE specifically, since Faramir was such a hot potato when the movie was first released, and the EE does have a lot extra stuff which is not specifically Faramir-related.<P>Like everyone else, I liked the added Faramir-scenes very much, but was wondering if others were left with the same impression as me about the lines that Denethor and Faramir share. Was it just me, or was Faramir saying "A chance...to show his quality" and "a mighty gift" with a distinct edge in his voice? I don't mean just that he sounded hard - they're hard lines - but in that exact mimicry, he seemed almost to be mocking the way that his father had spoken them earlier. In other words, he seemed to be acting *against his better judgment* in bringing the hobbits to Osgiliath, and he half-knew it at the time. <P>Why this was is slightly mysterious, since the flashback scene doesn't really delve into the major differences between Faramir and Boromir in temperament, except to show that Faramir is quieter and less popular with their father - also, it's hard to imagine Boromir, with all his good qualities, getting elegaic over an enemy's dead body. (It was good that they showed the scenes of the brothers getting along, though - it makes Faramir's grief at seeing Boromir's body very believable and immediate). I can only conclude that Faramir, being a bit more of the considering type, has begun to be automatically a bit dubious of anything his father thinks is a positive good - or else he wonders what such a weapon would be like in the hands of someone like his father. Hence, when he discovers the hobbits, he is torn between wanting to bring back a prize that would make even Denethor take notice of him, and between being unsure whether putting a weapon made originally by the enemy into Denethor's hands is such a wise thing to do - maybe it would be better to let the halflings proceed with whatever they're going to do? Boromir obviously endorsed their plan, at least for a time. But then, Boromir's dead, and *maybe* these guys know more than they're letting on. It's all very circular. <P>That indecision, combined with time pressing (remember how right before he says "The ring will go to Gondor" he's being told that Osgiliath is under attack, we have to go NOW) seems to have produced a state in him of "Well, my father wants it, he can HAVE it, good and hard."<P>Sorry if this is a bit confused - I'm probably missing some fairly obvious stuff. Does anyone have any other thoughts on the New Faramir?<P>PS One question - was it just me or did Denethor look like someone straight out of a Restoration-era portrait? Not that he looked bad or anything - just the periwig-like hairstyle threw me for a moment.

[Meela]

Hey! Good topic! You beat me to it. I was desperate to mention Faramir at some point.<P>And Denethor looks just fine <P>I said the few words I had to say on another topic, so I'll be exceptionally brief here, and I cannot remember what I actually said elsewhere.<P>I thought the additional material of Faramir gave a better view of his character. Not better as he was a bad person before, but he was better explained. I did love the way he mimicked his father's words in later scenes, and yes, it did seem rather mocking, although I do not see the purpose behind it.

[The Saucepan Man]

As I have said on the "additional scene" thread, I thought that the re-taking of Osgiliath scene was marvellous, and I particularly liked the fact that, when Faramir says the line about having a chance to prove himself, it harks back to his father's mocking words in Osgiliath. Clearly, he is remembering those words at this moment.<P>For me, this does indeed suggest that he wants to prove himself to his dismissive father and do what he is given to believe is his duty to his people, but that it is against his better judgment. I always had this impression from the theatrical release, but this additional scene really emphasises the point, since it gives him a more credible reason for making the decision to bring the Ring to Denethor. It also makes his change of heart at Osgiliath far more believable, since it suggests that he was always inclined to let Frodo and Sam go but suppressed this inclination in his desire to please his father.<P>He is still not the same character as in the book, since book Faramir is able to act upon his inclination without hesitation. But it does make him a far more sympathetic character in the context of the film. And his other additional scenes in the extended edition, namely his reflections on the dead Southron (taken from Sam's musings in the book) and the concern he shows towards Frodo's Quest in his warning to Gollum at the entrance to the Osgiliath sewers, also help to reinforce this impression.<P>Personally, had I been making the film, I would almost certainly have included the re-taking of Osgiliath in the theatrical release.<p>[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Kalimac]

Thanks, Saucepan Man and Meela - I'm glad I wasn't the only one seeing that. (Part of me was thinking that I was really overinterpreting things when I started thinking about the shades of irony in Faramir's voice). I'm more solid in that view now - especially since it explains something that annoyed me a lot in the theatrical release, which was, why DID he let them go? He's been presented with no solid, warfare-related reasons to do so and has the threat of death hanging over his head if he does. <P>Now, however, he looks like someone in a situation that he was really uncomfortable with from the get-go, so it's a lot more believable to see him snatching at the first sign that he should let them go and acting on it. And it was nice to see his concern for them extending to showing them the way out, and trying to keep Gollum behaving himself. Wonder why he didn't give them any food, though? No time, maybe.<P>Incidentally, about that "penalty of death" clause. That wasn't in the book, so far as I remember. Anyone want to bet that the tension between Faramir and Denethor in ROTK has just been ratcheted up another twenty notches or so? Eesh, that puts another light on the pyre completely...

[Theron Bugtussle]

Haven't seen the EE scene, but the book does contain the "penalty of death" comment. It is not an assistant speaking, rather Faramir saying he understands the gravity of the choice whether or not to let Frodo go. If he chooses wrongly for his people, his life will be forfeit.

[The Only Real Estel]

I think there certainly was an edge in his voice as he re-quoted his father's mocking words, but not a real noticeable one. I think he was mostly just talking to himself, mostly. But it did help to have Denethor say some of those lines...so that it made more sense when Faramir repeated them.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think the EE largely rescues Faramir, as much as any character, despite the unavoidable simplifications, abridgements, ommissions, compression of time, re-juxtaposition of lines, scenes & places, visually driven renderings, compositing of characters, changes of emphasis, and other such devices to adapt a story to screen.<P>Even in the Book, other threads have pointed out how Faramir's conversion and enlightenment is not quite so immediate or clearcut as some would like to recall. But that is all much too subtle and verbose to be ever depicted on film, except for one only based on Book IV.<P>The EE-script obviously puts the emphasis on Faramir's personal struggles with proving himself to his father, and living up to the standard set by Boromir. This is a lesser subtext in the TT-Book, where the One Ring is subtly much more of a forgotten and secretive matter of lore, anyway. The filmmakers probably wanted to bring out and stress this family dynamic for purposes of the RoTK-Film, as it is much more prominent between Denethor and Faramir, even in Book V, including but not limited to being the source of Denethor's crushing guilt.<P>In any event, the filmmakers deserve to be applauded for maintaining the essential elements from the Books, asserting many key themes and remaining largely true to their spirit. Much more could never be hoped for.<P>Frodo's encounter with the Winged Nazgûl is really the one really <B>substantive</B> addition or divergence between Book-TT and EEFilm-TT, in terms of the scenes in question. There are reasons for it, like going to Osgiliath, so that they can show what in the Books we are only told about regarding the battles there. It also reflects, for better or worse the filmmaker's desire to make the most of the special effects that they've created, and their somewhat overweening drive to dramatize or melodramatize everything to the unth degree.<P>This also explains the line about Faramir's life being forfeit, which does not mean he'll be executed, only that that is one possible outcome for his disobeying a standing order. This is not so different from the Book, where we are to understand that Faramir (even if within his discretion) is taking a very tremendous step in exception to the laws and commands for the patrolling of Ithilien. But for the movie, the point is made that much more clearly, quickly and forcefully. And that's Entertainment.

[Gilthalion]

I think you've all very well covered most of my thought regarding the Extended Faramir scenes. I was really not upset with the Theatrical Faramir, even though I naturally liked the Canon Faramir.<P>Faramir's ellegy for the fallen enemy was a good steal from Sam. It did seem to fit Canon Faramir. Furthermore, in the various documentaries and the commentaries, an issue is raised that I think this ellegy served to answer, as did Sam's soliloquy at the end of the picture, as did the journey for Theoden regarding the defense of his people.<P>There seems to have been (pardon my ignorance, I've been very much preoccupied with my own reality for some months) some kind of backlash that TTT was a war-mongering movie and that Tolkien glorified war itself. I cannot help but think of Theatrical Wormtongue accusing Eomer of the same (perhaps with some of the same treacherous motivations that a few of the principles behind the modern anti-war movement seem to harbor). War is a terrible waste of life, which is sacred. But enslavement is also a waste of that sacred life and if life is to be endured, it should be lived free from tyranny so that persons (ideally) answer only to their own conscience according to their heritage, beliefs, and relationship with their Deity.<P>The main theme of this movie, that there is some good in this world and that it is worth fighting for, is a theme that ordinary folk understand well and it is a theme to which we respond under courageous leadership. Nevertheless, the hideous loss of war must be faced with no less courage. We see Extended Faramir do just that. He faces the wasteful loss, literally in the face of the fallen, mourns the senseless tragedy of it, and then presses on. The Shadow would use even our goodness against us, if he could turn our dismay at innocent or collateral loss against our righteous preservation of all that is good.<P>Furthermore, the soldier of Harad, being swarthy and foreign, evoked something of our present situation, with the West facing a population that is induced by its extremists and its leadership with terror and lies to wage an aggressive war. I did feel that the Theatrical Haradrim were more of India than of the Middle East, but there is still much of that Middle Eastern feel to them. We can feel the same respect and admiration for those who have been made our enemies, appreciating their culture, their worth, and their courage, while still hoping that they might again be our friends one day and yet with great regret, fighting for what we must.<P>This was perhaps not an overt message to the audience in this scene, but I have a feeling that the message was implicit and that it was a subtle stroke which simultaneously brought the spirit of Extended Faramir back to Canon Faramir. He is the man of war and captain of men who is nevertheless a sensitive soul who deplores the bloodshed. <P>Bur Faramir does not give his national leadership the blind obedience required of an enslaved people. Faramir understands that the leader of his people, his own father, is not all that he could hope for, and will take upon himself whatever penalty for disobeying wrongful law or rule with the same determination that he must fight for what is right. It is right to fight for the lives and freedom of his people under their rightful leadership. It is also right to disobey that same leadership when it is wrong. In both Extended and Canon Faramir, we see this quality, and it is of the highest.<P>For what it is worth, Theatrical Faramir did seem to have flashes of this that briefly glimmered in what remained of his scenes, but I was unsure if I saw this or if this was a trick of my memory and preconceptions of Canon Faramir. Even Theatrical Faramir seemed to hesitate, and it is noteworthy that he did NOT claim the Ring, but was sending it to his father and under penalty of death, released it.<P>The Retaking of Osgiliath was a pickup scene, and I also found the "show his quality" line to be well played. Interestingly, I think that more was made of it than may have been originally intended. Thus, it was DENETHOR who had to give a reading that made FARAMIR's reading seem to be an ironic recital of his father's original statement, which was actually filmed much later. A nice bit of either serendipity or clever writing, that.<p>[ November 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gilthalion ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Even in the Book, other threads have pointed out how Faramir's conversion and enlightenment is not quite so immediate or clearcut as some would like to recall. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the main complaints (certainly from me) seem to be coming from him taking the hobbits to Osgiliath & then letting them go for no apparent reason, <I>not</I> complaints of his initial response.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It also reflects, for better or worse the filmmaker's desire to make the most of the special effects that they've created, and their somewhat overweening drive to dramatize or melodramatize everything to the unth degree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is quite true, although that's certainly not a reason for PJ to do it, he already had so many other 'doctored' up scenes it wouldn't fly to say you put it in for the special effects. I do think that the EE helped Faramir, but I don't think that it has saved/redeemed him as much as people would like to think...<p>[ November 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[jonathan32]

I agree with what Githalion said and think it's very insightful. I haven't seent he EE yet, but I will defintiely get it. I was pretty disappointed with the theatrical release and thinkthis might redeem the movie for me.

[Guinevere]

The added scenes make movie-Faramir much more sympathetic and one can understand his motives now. But for me, he is still quite a different person and miles away from the noble, wise and subtle man from the book. And the real Faramir wouldn't have treated Gollum so brutally! (made me feel really sorry for the famished little creature... ) But perhaps this was shown in order to make Gollum's resentment even more acute? <BR>Boromir is still shown as the more sympathetic one of the two brothers.(Nothing implies that he was more ambitious, rash and looking "for his own glory" , the real reason why he was more susceptible to the lure of the Ring than Faramir.)<BR>Also, I was rather disappointed about Denethor. Not only his wig that put me off, but his whole behaviour is nothing like the awe-inspiring, fascinating personality that I know from the book. His unjust treatment of Faramir is overdone (imho)and apparently without motive. Well, I hope his character will be more developed in RotK.