Which Elf had it hardest?

[Fingolfin II]

Which of the Elves do you think suffered the most, or the most tragic things happened to them?

I'd say Elrond, because he never really knew his father, his foster-father was guilty of murdering his people and never came back, as well as his daughter Arwen dying, his brother choosing mortality, the decline of his brother's kin (the downfall of Numenor) and his wife getting sick and leaving him (for a long time).

What do you guys think?

[Olorin_TLA]

Maedhros maybe...he tried so hard to be good, but his sense of duty to the Oath was too much in the end. Of all the Sons of Feanor, he was my favourite, and it was a real blow to see him end like that.

Actually, the same could be said for Thingol. He starts out so nice, turns into a nasty $%)*£, Beren recovers his prize and Thranduil softens up once more, and then finally his pride leads to the eradication of him and his realm.

[Elianna]

I'm with Fingolfin II. (I haven't read Sil, so maybe my vote doesn't count.)

I say Elrond because of all the things FingolfinII said and these: You know he's got to be torn up because he's supposed to be the healer. But the Ring-bearer, savior of M-E, couldn't stay to enjoy the Shire (mostly) because his wounds were never healed. And Celebrían, his wife, was never fully healed either, yes, healed physically (which is all Elrond can do probably), but you know he's got to beat himself up about it. At least they'll see each other again.

Also he was Gil-galad's herald, a more important position than would be thought if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure they were close, so Elrond, along with all this other stuff, had to bear his king's death in the Last Alliance.

[Son of Númenor]

Lúthien springs to my mind when I hear discussion of which of the Eldar 'had it hardest'. She was imprisoned by a few of the Sons of Feanor (a scary prospect for anyone), & even placed in solitary confinement by her own dear pop. She had to duel in some form or another with Sauron, Carcharoth & Morgoth, & managed to get out of each encounter alive. She married a Man & was tragically separated from her family & her people beyond the confines of the world. Although, granted, she did find truly love, unlike many of the prominent Elves of the First Age, the hardships she endured in the name of that love were among the greatest of any being of Middle-earth.

[Knight of Gondor]

I didn't think too much about Elrond, but when you put it that way, I suppose he would be an excellent candidate for "worst life". Then again, I forget whether or not the book backs up Cate Blanchett's quote in the movie: "To be a Ringbearer is to be alone". It makes sense, though, for Elrond.

The Elf that came to my mind was...and help me if I'm getting his name mixed up with someone else's...Beleg? The friend of Turin Turumbar, who Turin slew by accident, taking him for a foe in the dark light. Of course, Turin would be the most suffered man to mention...

[Gorwingel]

I have never thought of Elrond having such a terrible life. But, yes, that is all quite true. By the end he was basically alone, except for (I would think) the sons. But were always off in Middle-earth traveling around assisting with the conflicts surrounding the Ring. So he must have not seen them that much.

Turin though, he did not have it good. It was nice that he slayed the dragon, but having the Curse of Morgoth on him (and what happened to him after) would never have been a good thing.

But then I also think that Galadriel had quite a hard time just because of everything she had seen and been through during her very, very, very long life. Basically for her everything had gone downhill from the first time she awoke, and then of course she also shared the sorrow of being a ringbearer. And all of that can never be good.

I don't think though that Luthien exactly had the most sorrowfilled life. She got what she wanted, and had the most joyful of joys because of it. Though she did have to go through a lot to get there, and of course lose her immortality because of it.

I guess we can assume from all of this that it was pretty hard being an elf in Middle-earth

[Gothmog]

How about Gwindor? He started off as a great elven-lord, but then his brother Gelmir was caught by Morgoth and killed in front of Gwindor's eyes (just before Nirnaeth Arnoediad). Then he charged forward, the troops followed him and that unprepared attack was one of the things that led to the disaster in the battle.

He was than imprisoned and turned into a slave in Angband. He managed to escape but was now broken and completely changed, people didn't recognize him anymore. He met Turin and they went back to Nargothrond, where Finduilas, Orodreth's daughter fell in love with Turin instead of Gwindor (Finduilas and Gwindor were in love before Nirn. Arn.). The elves of Narg. listen more and more to Turin and less and less to Gwindor, who finally died at the battle of Tumladen, a battle which Turin more or less was responsible for.

From a mighty warrior and lord to a broken ex-slave who lost his love and many friends, much because of Turin. (of course it wasn't Turins intention, but that curse of his...it was bad )

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Leave it to me to throw a spanner in!

If Luthien should be considered as having it hard, why not Arwen? (Note: I am extremely disgusted with PJ's version of Arwen, but I had no problem with the original Arwen as written)

Compare: Luthien escaped from a good many trials, but she was always content. She escaped from her father to party with Beren, had a good deal of fun with ol' Morgy and his guard dog, throw one over a couple of drunken sons of Feanor. But so what? She had the only thing that mattered to her, and she kept it even after death!

Arwen, on the other, is kept safe in her house under a watchful father. I don't suppose she is ever allowed out of sight either. The man that she love is send of to fight a war, with no more than a band of ragtag outlaws. To do Elrond credit, he send his own sons along, but Arwen is only allowed to stay at home to knit banners... No, she must have worried her head off. I am guessing that Elrond kept her under lock and chain to prevent history from repeating...

[Knight of Gondor]

It always seemed to me that both Elven Maidens were content to wait for their future husbands. No wait, I take it back. Arwen was rather content, poor Luthien had to go rescue her man. And Luthien just had a little life afterwards, diminishing and dancin'. Arwen got a kingdom. Of course, we're not told what sadness there was at Luthien's end, whereas we are told about Arwen.

[Elianna]

And interesting thought Hot, Crispy Hobbit.

(I just finished the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, so it's fresh on my mind.) Aragorn, at their first meeting, jokingly asks if Elrond has kept Arwen locked in his horde. I suppose it might have seemed like that to Arwen, that she was inprisioned in the Hírilorn, but with no esape this time.

[Olorin_TLA]

Hmm, Gwindor may have my vote now :'( He's kind of the Elven equivalent of *I forget the name...the lame woodman who loves Nienor* :'(

I think any Elf who got close to a mortal would be sad though...especially those who knew many...imagine meeting a race. They only live for 1 year. So you get close tothem. They die, You get close to their kids. They die. And this goes on for generations, so by the time you, the human, die,let's say at 80, you will have experienced the deaths of countless close friends.

:'(

[mark12_30]

I tend to feel the most sorry for the elves who end up imprisoned by their own brokenness and despair... forever.

Maglor, singing on the seashore; Daeron, far to the east, sitting by dark waters lamenting his loss of Luthien.

Neither of them were angels and they had plenty to regret. Living with the guilt must make it that much worse.

[Rilwen Gamgee]

I would say Galadriel had it the hardest. She lived a long life and much of it was sorrowful. First of all, her brother, Finrod, died. Also, if I'm not mistaken, she traveled to and from Aman and Middle-earth twice, which is not an easy trip! Next, she bore a Ring for almost all of her life, which put stress on her to keep the land she was the Lady of safe. Her daughter, Celebrían, became overcome with grief, and sailed over the Sea; another family member was gone (however they would reunite after Galadriel returned to the Undying Lands). Next, there was the dilemma of Arwen and her choice of mortality. A quote from "FotR" also describes Galadriel's tragic life:

...a living vision of that which has already been left behind by the flowing streams of Time.

3 (or 2, not counting Celebrían) family members lost and the burden of being a Ring-bearer. Certainly not a life everyone would want.

[symestreem]

What about Finwe? Sure, elf-king and all, but had his first wife die, saw his sons not get along, voluntarily went into exile, and was slain by Morgoth.

[mark12_30]

Okay, Finwe had it rough and then he died. But when elves die, it gets lots better for them; generally speaking, they get re-incarnated in Elvenhome. Not bad.

And although Galadriel was long-lived, and faced many challenges, still, she ended up in Valinor, with kin, forgiven and loved. Celebrian was waiting there for her. She would miss Arwen, doubltless, but here would be others to cheer her, and the beauty of Valinor to enjoy.

On the other hand:

Maglor had a long life, reaching back to the Two Trees. The early part of it was marred by all-out war. The climax of his life was agony, loss, and madness. All his brothers (and father) are dead and gone-- presumably, in Mandos' halls. Maglor is not with them; he's on the beach in Middle-Earth; he had a silmaril in his hand, and couldn't hold it. And he's been wandering alone on those beaches ever since, singing. No Valinor for him!

Daeron betrayed Luthien Tinuviel. How do you EVER live that down? He went East, and it is said he spends his time singing by dark waters lamenting his lost love-- andknowing it's his own doggone fault. Presumeably he is there still. No Valinor for him either!

Ugh! I'd rather die and go to Mandos, and have company and the chance to be reborn!

I would say Celebrian, just because. (On a lighter note, wouldn't it be hard living with a mother who knew your thoughts?) But how would you like to be tortured by orcs, have to be rescued by your sons, and never be able to live in peace with your family in Middle-Earth again? Not to mention never see your daughter...ever. I just think she had it pretty rough.

[mark12_30]

True, I've often shuddered at the thought--being captured and tortured by orcs. Ugh.

Welcome to the Downs, by the way. There is a thread in Novices And Newcomers called "Introduce yourselves here" if you would like to say a general Hello.

[Mad Baggins]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the crossing of the Helcaraxe; because of that I would have to say Galadriel.

[Lhunardawen]

All of Feanor's sons had it rough. It must have been terrible pressure on them, having to fulfill their dreadful oath. Many times they thought life has been better, and then the oath would again awaken in their hearts. The oath would continually haunt them, leading to their deaths and the deaths of others.

[Elianna]

Mad Baggins : You'd say Galadriel because of the crossing of the Helcaraxe? Why not say Elenwë (wasn't that her name? Turgon's wife), who died in the crossing?

[Mad Baggins]

Yes, but Elenwe died and therefore did not have to endure the full crossing over.

[Lhunardawen]

Yes, but Elenwe died and therefore did not have to endure the full crossing over.

And this leads to Turgon having it hard as well, for he lost his wife early on and did not have the chance to give Idril siblings.

[mark12_30]

died in the crossing

It's not the "dead" elves I feel sorry for. They get happily reborn and healed up. It's the ones who linger, mourning, and guilty. They've got it tough.

Although, with Feanor and his sons-- and Miriel-- refused permission to be reborn by Mandos, they have it tough too.

But not the average reborn, reincarnated elf. What's to pity?

[Elianna]

mark12_30:

the average reborn, reincarnated elf. What's to pity?

Read Zimraphel's "Envinyanta" at our fanfic section and you'll see.

[Lalaith]

I feel for the wretched, unhappy Maeglin. And as people have mentioned here already, the broken Gwindor, and the sons of Feanor. Particularly Maedhros who seems to have been constantly torn between desire to do what he knew was right, and what he was bound to do by his terrible oath.

[Alda]

I agree with Gorthmog that the life of Gwindor was very tragic. His story was one of the first that came to my mind.

Luthien Tinuvial's parting was sorrowful, facing the unknown at the end. Yet the choice was hers to make. Who can judge if her joy outweighed her pain? Or place the precious days spent with Beren on a scale, and try to balance her immortality against it. Might we not trade a thousand lifetimes for such moments as they shared in Tol Galen, while she wore the Silmaril? Yet Son of Numenor is right. Who suffered more than Luthien? Her suffering moved even Mandos to pity.

The Eldar were aquainted with sorrow, but of the unnumbered tears they would shed, the drowning of Amroth in his love for Nimrodel to me is one of the saddest.

[Pippin Pondlily]

Oooh, well, I'd probably go with Elrond, everyone he loved died eh (not exactly sure about his sons?). But Luthien and Arwen endured quite a deal of trauma as well. Especially Luthien, from the stories I've heard (I've never actually read the Silmarilion).

Now that I'm thinking on it though, Elrond really did have it rough, that whole affair with Frodo too, not being able to haven the ring and sending the hobbit on his way with it. I don't know if I'd be too comfortable with the gift of foresight either.

Yah, my vote's for Elrond, poor chap.

- P. Pondlily

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

Which of the Elves do you think suffered the most, or the most tragic things happened to them?

I'd say Elrond, because he never really knew his father, his foster-father was guilty of murdering his people and never came back, as well as his daughter Arwen dying, his brother choosing mortality, the decline of his brother's kin (the downfall of Numenor) and his wife getting sick and leaving him (for a long time).

What do you guys think?

who the hell is Elrond's foster-daddy? and ELROND WAS A HALF-ELF, so it would be nicer if we exclude Elrond.


This is just one girl's opinion.

[yavanna II]

hEY, look, Feanor suffered a lot. His daddy died, the Valar who didn't understand what the Sils were to him, Morgy stole his sils, the Light dies, and everything. The oath that he swore was just a natural instinct for someone who has had that. If it was me..... I WOULD HAVE GONE ALONE TO KICK MORGY ON THE ***.

I'm serious. Why did nobody think of Feanor?????!!!!

[ohtatyaro]

Maedhros, sure (I won't list reasons as they are already mentioned )

[Elianna]

yavanna II: Elrond's foster-father was Maglor, Fëanor's 2nd son, one of the one's who just tried to kill Elrond's parents and kidnapped him and Elros. Technically, Elrond was 9/16ths elven, not just half . And he chose to be counted among the Elves at the end of the 1st Age. He does count in this poll.

And just generally, you might want to try calming down just a tad.

[Encaitare]

I was actually just thinking about how much it sucks to be Elrond. He's awesome and all, a lore-master and a generally cool guy, but he did lose his whole family. Celebrian, Arwen, his parents... does anyone know what happened to Elladan and Elrohir? Did they stay in Middle-earth or eventually go across the Sea? I looked them up on the Encyclopedia of Arda (glyphweb.com/arda), and it said they stayed in Rivendell after Elrond sailed, but it's unknown what they did afterwards. Does anyone know if maybe Tolkien stated anything about this, maybe in one of his letters?

Also, Maedhros had a hard time of it, between being chained to a wall, having his hand hacked off, and then having to worry about his father's Oath.

[ninlaith]

I think it would be awful to be Celebor, if you're a man it would be awful anyway. Not ruling a kingdom, having to be one step behind a woman who has more power than you, not doing anything fun like showing people their possible destiny, and just constantly in the backround. He seemed to be coping with it though. Just happy to be there I guess.

[Encaitare]

Yeah, movie-Celeborn just kinda stands there, although he has a few more lines in the Extended Edition. Book-Celeborn is better, though; at least he plays a more active role in the story instead of just being second to Galadriel.

[ninlaith]

In the book Celeborn is the one who talks about Gandalf's falling and his many deeds in life. So he was of more significance in the book.

[Encaitare]

Exactly.

I see no reason for Celeborn to be particularly unhappy, though. He co-rules an ethereal wood and has a beautiful and strong wife. Not a lousy situation in my opinion.

[ninlaith]

I agree! Not too shabby for Celeborn!

[The Saucepan Man]

I'll go with Gwindor. Not only was his brother executed before his eyes, but he was taken in chains to Angband shortly afterwards and enslaved there for fourteen years. Then, when he escapes, he finds that his former beloved has fallen in love with another. Triple whammy!

But what about all those poor Elves who were captured not long after awakening and twisted by Morgoth into Orcs? Seems they had it pretty hard too.

[Morgul Queen]

Had it hardest? I'd have to go with Maedros and Fingon there...and not for the reason you're thinking, but the most angsty would have to be Maglor!

[Lostregiel]

I think all the Elves ( or at least most of them) had a really tragic life.
They live so long that it is impossible not to have bad moments.
I think Elrond is who had it worst, and since the reasons have been mentioned yet I won´t repet them.
I´d like to add Fëanor, too, and all his sons, who, leaving apart the curse of the Noldor, could never live in peace, because of the Silmarillions.
And maybe Galadriel could be placed among them, too. She had been wanting to go back home for three ages, and knowing she was banned, not knowing if she could ever return, and though Lothlórien was fair and time didn´t seem to pass there, they knew they just couldn´t stop time outside. There´s another quote I´d like to add about Galadriel, and all elves in general:

"For our spring and our summer have gone by, and they won´t be seen again on Earth save in memmory"

LOSTREGIEL